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Thread: no need to restore the truth

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi Julie,
    The scripture you referenced from Romans is referring to the assurance that born again believers can have, not referring to lost people. The scripture from Luke is talking about the gifts and influences of the Holy Spirit by which we are brought to know God and to believe and repent through the measure of faith first supplied by God. And by the way God did not create us to be filthy, man chose sin but I believe as 2 Peter 3 says God is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But all won't.
    I can understand your reasoning with Romans 8, if you read only the verses before, but listen to the verse afterward:

    Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Why do you think it is "joint-heirs" with Christ?

    Especially that we are taught this: Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    (I have heard the argument that this was speaking to rulers or leaders in the church, but then why say "children of the most High"? --even to they were being chastised as wicked leaders who were NOT following God?)

    And there is nothing in Luke 8, that indicates that Christ was only talking about gifts of the spirit.


    Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

    As far as Peter, yes, I agree that God did not create us to be filthy, but then we start off pure and clean, because of the atonement, correct?

    And if God is long-suffering towards us--doesn't that mean that HE is NOT a respecter of persons and will give the spirit to ANY who seek Him? And that if we choose to sin, we can also choose to seek God?

    Why is it so important for you to deny your own personal responsibility toward God when the Bible states so clearly that you will be judged "according to your works."


    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I can understand your reasoning with Romans 8, if you read only the verses before, but listen to the verse afterward:

    Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

    Why do you think it is "joint-heirs" with Christ?

    Especially that we are taught this: Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

    (I have heard the argument that this was speaking to rulers or leaders in the church, but then why say "children of the most High"? --even to they were being chastised as wicked leaders who were NOT following God?)

    And there is nothing in Luke 8, that indicates that Christ was only talking about gifts of the spirit.


    Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.

    As far as Peter, yes, I agree that God did not create us to be filthy, but then we start off pure and clean, because of the atonement, correct?

    And if God is long-suffering towards us--doesn't that mean that HE is NOT a respecter of persons and will give the spirit to ANY who seek Him? And that if we choose to sin, we can also choose to seek God?

    Why is it so important for you to deny your own personal responsibility toward God when the Bible states so clearly that you will be judged "according to your works."


    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    Hi Julie,

    We don't start out pure and clean, we are born with a sinful nature, bent away from God and as discussed in earlier posts, dead in trespasses and sins. As unbelievers we choose to sin because as the scriptures tell us we are slaves to sin, we would choose nothing else. Believers can choose not to sin with the aid of the Holy Spirit and if we do commit sin we have an advocate, Jesus Christ. As far as your reference to Rev:20, remember Romans 8:1 "there is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus". Believers are not judged in regard to sin, Jesus paid for our sins, believers are judged regarding rewards 1Cor 3:15 "if any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."


  3. #353
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi Julie,

    We don't start out pure and clean, we are born with a sinful nature, bent away from God and as discussed in earlier posts, dead in trespasses and sins.
    Except this verse disagrees:

    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    As unbelievers we choose to sin because as the scriptures tell us we are slaves to sin, we would choose nothing else.
    If that were so, then there is no reason to teach of God nor seek God, nor repent prior to receiving the Holy Ghost.


    Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.


    Believers can choose not to sin with the aid of the Holy Spirit and if we do commit sin we have an advocate, Jesus Christ.
    What, now we choose, and before we don't? This sounds like it comes straight from the Book of Mormon:


    And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall. And because that they are redeemed from the fall they have become free forever, knowing good from evil; to act for themselves and not to be acted upon, save it be by the punishment of the law at the great and last day, according to the commandments which God hath given.

    Is this what you are trying to convey?


    As far as your reference to Rev:20, remember Romans 8:1 "there is now therefore no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus". Believers are not judged in regard to sin, Jesus paid for our sins, believers are judged regarding rewards 1Cor 3:15 "if any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."
    Okay, explain the "rewards" that they will receive.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  4. #354
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    [QUOTE=BigJulie;172794]

    Except this verse disagrees:

    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.



    1 Corinthians 15:22 does not mean everyone will be saved. This verse is saying that everyone will be resurrected. The righteous will be resurrected first (to be with Christ), while the unrighteous will be judged and go to the eternal punishment of the lake of Fire.
    This is easier to see when we look at the text in context. We see that Christ was raised first, the first fruits of those who are “asleep.” Then those who are Christ’s, then the end – the judgment where people are raised from the dead for judgment.

    1 Corinthians 15:20-26
    “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order : Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.”
    We must recall that Paul said there is a resurrection of the righteous and the wicked.
    Acts 24:15 “and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”

  5. #355
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post


    1 Corinthians 15:22 does not mean everyone will be saved. This verse is saying that everyone will be resurrected. The righteous will be resurrected first (to be with Christ), while the unrighteous will be judged and go to the eternal punishment of the lake of Fire.
    This is easier to see when we look at the text in context. We see that Christ was raised first, the first fruits of those who are “asleep.” Then those who are Christ’s, then the end – the judgment where people are raised from the dead for judgment.
    I completely agree with this, that not all will be "saved" in terms of exaltation, but in overcoming death which is a type of salvation (unless you think over-coming death is no-biggy ) So, since we all start out "saved" from this death, why do you disagree that we begin pure and clean, for doesn't Christ's atonement cover our fall until we actually do sin? (Or do believe babies who die at birth go to hell?) Are we all sinful in nature? Yes, but are we also children of God which gives us the ability to choose good (all of us).

    1 Corinthians 15:20-26
    “But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order : Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.”
    We must recall that Paul said there is a resurrection of the righteous and the wicked.
    Acts 24:15 “and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.”
    And if we continue to quote Paul:

    1Co 15:39-45 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    So, yes, you are right, the resurrection will mean different things to different people--some will have the glory of the sun, some the moon, and some the stars (I read this to mean in terms of our understanding of how much light is produced, this is not a science discussion.) So, the resurrection starts with Christ and ends with the sons of perdition, which brings me to the next point you did not answer...

    What do you mean by "rewards".
    Last edited by BigJulie; 04-18-2017 at 06:41 PM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  6. #356
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    [QUOTE=BigJulie;172796]

    I completely agree with this, that not all will be "saved" in terms of exaltation, but in overcoming death which is a type of salvation (unless you think over-coming death is no-biggy ) So, since we all start out "saved" from this death, why do you disagree that we begin pure and clean, for doesn't Christ's atonement cover our fall until we actually do sin? (Or do believe babies who die at birth go to hell?) Are we all sinful in nature? Yes, but are we also children of God which gives us the ability to choose good (all of us).



    And if we continue to quote Paul:

    1Co 15:39-45 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    So, yes, you are right, the resurrection will mean different things to different people--some will have the glory of the sun, some the moon, and some the stars (I read this to mean in terms of our understanding of how much light is produced, this is not a science discussion.) So, the resurrection starts with Christ and ends with the sons of perdition, which brings me to the next point you did not answer...

    What do you mean by "rewards".
    Hi Julie,

    I will refer you 1 Cor. 3:12-15 "Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post

    Hi Julie,

    I will refer you 1 Cor. 3:12-15 "Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire."
    This just reiterated that there will be "rewards"--but what do you see as these rewards--what "work" will endure? and what "reward" will they "receive" through this "work"?

    (I am restating the scripture verse with quotations lest you accuse me of stating that they "earn" some type of "reward" for their "work.")
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  8. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    This just reiterated that there will be "rewards"--but what do you see as these rewards--what "work" will endure? and what "reward" will they "receive" through this "work"?

    (I am restating the scripture verse with quotations lest you accuse me of stating that they "earn" some type of "reward" for their "work.")
    Hi Julie,

    I believe the "works" will be the one's mentioned in Eph. 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Just what the nature of these works will be I can't accurately say, probably different for each believer. As far as rewards are concerned, my earthly concept of what rewards are is probably not the same as God's. Mat. 10:42 states," and if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward." I don't know what this reward will be, do you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi Julie,

    I believe the "works" will be the one's mentioned in Eph. 2:10 "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them." Just what the nature of these works will be I can't accurately say, probably different for each believer. As far as rewards are concerned, my earthly concept of what rewards are is probably not the same as God's. Mat. 10:42 states," and if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones who is my disciple, truly I tell you, that person will certainly not lose their reward." I don't know what this reward will be, do you?
    I do not believe I understand all of the rewards, but certainly some of the rewards as they have been given through a series of promises to the house of Israel (through Abraham). Christ has also spoken about them in his parables, but they are only understood by the believers. When Mormons come on here and try to point out these promises and "rewards" we are accused of thinking we "earn" our salvation and all kinds of other things including but not limited to blasphemy, idolatry, etc.

    The promises (rewards) are spelled out in the Bible though....fairly plainly if you know what you are looking for. (Not unlike believers clearly seeing prophecies of Christ in the OT, yet unbelievers do not.)


    Jhn 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 04-19-2017 at 01:49 PM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I do not believe I understand all of the rewards,....
    Whats hard to understand?

    According to Mormonism, the married guys get to have sex with lots and lots of young girls.

    and their wives?



    Um...er...they get to keep their mouths shut and cant say anything about it?
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  11. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Whats hard to understand?

    According to Mormonism, the married guys get to have sex with lots and lots of young girls.

    and their wives?



    Um...er...they get to keep their mouths shut and cant say anything about it?
    Case in point for my last scripture--you say you can see....
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  12. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Case in point for my last scripture--you say you can see....
    while I can see a few things, I also can read a few things too...



    LDS Leaders Still Believe There Will Be Polygamy in Heaven

    http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/...myinheaven.htm
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    but is is true, that when asked about the afterlife not many Mormon women really are told that much by their leadership or husbands....other than just "family forever" type stuff.

    I guess they just dont like to bring up the "Harem" concept too much it seems?

    But from personal experience I can tell you that I used to work with a young Mormon crew of guys in Id and they did tend to glance at their wife's friends and contemplate their own heavenly roster...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  14. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    but is is true, that when asked about the afterlife not many Mormon women really are told that much by their leadership or husbands....other than just "family forever" type stuff.

    I guess they just dont like to bring up the "Harem" concept too much it seems?

    But from personal experience I can tell you that I used to work with a young Mormon crew of guys in Id and they did tend to glance at their wife's friends and contemplate their own heavenly roster...
    Why not just admit like Disciple that you don't know what the "rewards" are and that you see Abraham as an adulterer and so have no understanding of the promises made to the house of Israel?

    To a hammer, everything is a nail. When was the last time you viewed pornography?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    ......you see Abraham as an adulterer


    .... as for Abraham?

    Lets check-

    "a·dul·ter·y

    NOUN

    voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse:




    so yes, Abraham did commit adultery...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  16. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    .... as for Abraham?

    Lets check-

    "a·dul·ter·y

    NOUN

    voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse:




    so yes, Abraham did commit adultery...
    Yes, I already knew you believed that and so I just made an assertion you had clarified before regarding your belief about Abraham.

    As I said, a hammer sees everything as a nail. So, since you are pointing fingers at Mormon men and others (Abraham), when was the last time you viewed pornography?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    , when was the last time you viewed pornography?
    what is this fixation you got with prono today?

    Why do you ask?...you got some photos you are pushing or something?....( I have had to clear a few prono spams as of late since I became listed here as the "Super" Mod.)


    anyway...

    cuz it's kinda weird .
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Yes, I already knew you believed that and so I just made an assertion you had clarified before regarding your belief about Abraham.
    a strange sentence.....



    if you want me to be more forthright about the sins of Abraham?...just start a topic on it and I will be happy to jump right in....



    trust me, Abraham and his whole family tree had a lot of issues...
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    what is this fixation you got with prono today?

    Why do you ask?...you got some photos you are pushing or something?....( I have had to clear a few prono spams as of late since I became listed here as the "Super" Mod.)


    anyway...

    cuz it's kinda weird .
    Guess what, I have also seen the virus on here--but I also know that those sites target those that use them. Hence, I don't get those kind of spams on my computer.

    The reason I ask is because it is hypocritical to point the fingers without confessing your own sins and second, because how you view women speaks to your perceptions of other men.

    So, is that all you have done is clear "spam" and if not, when was the last time you viewed pornography?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    "spam" .....?
    Tell you what...

    if you want to know what we consider "spam" here...you can just repeat the same question one more time and get a first hand lesson....
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Tell you what...

    if you want to know what we consider "spam" here...you can just repeat the same question one more time and get a first hand lesson....
    I'll take that as your answer as saying you have recently viewed porn and not just as spam--otherwise you would have categorically claimed otherwise.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    I'll take that as your answer as saying you have recently viewed porn and not just as spam--otherwise you would have categorically claimed otherwise.
    I run a tight ship BigJulie...
    Im as strict on both Christian and non-Christian as far as the rules go, enforcing them without prejudice regarding religion...

    I don't really care what you say about religious leaders, but you will remain respectful to your fellow board members.

    Try to learn this lesson, if you want to continue posting here.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 04-20-2017 at 07:58 PM.
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I run a tight ship BigJulie...
    Im as strict on both Christian and non-Christian as far as the rules go, enforcing them without prejudice regarding religion...

    I don't really care what you say about religious leaders, but you will remain respectful to your fellow board members.

    Try to learn this lesson, if you want to continue posting here.
    I once posted on another site like this one. The "mod" of that site also spoke about adultery and pedophilia about Mormons just like you. He spent so much time talking about it, I finally called him out on being an adulterer. He never denied it and then a few days later stated that "God had forgiven him for his sins." He waited a few months and then quietly banned me from the site. He also proceeded to erase all of my posts (not unlike you just did.)--(notice I am not talking about anyone on this site-- I am just speaking of my experience with "Christians" the way you speak about your experience with Mormons --your post at 7:13 am , #364,this morning.)

    Later, he admitted he had committed adultery.

    My point is, when a man goes on and on about sex the way you do, well--it is not hard to read right between the lines and understand where your perspective comes from.

    You can erase this post as well Alan, but you will know that I know and if I know, I absolutely know that God knows of your hypocrisy.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  24. #374
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    you are just digging a hole for yourself today I guess....
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

  25. #375
    Super Moderator alanmolstad's Avatar
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    I think we all saw that coming....
    From the Forum RULES : "As you know, the Walter Martin website takes the position that Mormon theology is not Christian theology. Use of the term "LDS Christian" is inaccurate and misleading, and as such is not acceptable on this board."

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