no need to restore the truth

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

there is one body, but many members....

the hand is not the foot....nor does it really even slightly look like the foot on the outside.

But underneath you do find that both the hand and the foot are all part of the same body with many different parts.

Now should the church feel bad that not all members are under the same official org?

All the parts are members of the same body.

Could you give us a cite where God accepted any denomination other than the one found in the Biblical NT:

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Where do we find numerous denominations which God accepted in the Biblical NT?

Jesus himself set this in motion when the 12 one day came to him and told him that they had seen another preacher talking about Jesus and the 12 tried to stop him from spreading the message of Jesus because that guy was not ***ociated with the 12.

Jesus interrupts and tells his 12 men not to do that.

The moment Jesus said this, it opened up the body of the Christian faith to the opportunity of other people to start up their own ministry and to enter into the life of spreading the word of God to others and not have any need at all in even the slightest way of being ***ociated with anyone else.

So this means that if I wanted to, I have the ability under Jesus own words, to simply pick up my Bible and head out into the world and spread the message i have to share.

i dont need to be approved by anyone.

I dont need to have went to any school first.

I dont need to be given any "official" permission by any known church body or org.

I can simply just go out the door, or sit at my computer and spread the word!

No one questions the fact you can do what you want--only the NT church had living, mortal apostles and prophets which they were founded upon. I believe Jesus's comment was those who were doing His work were not against them--it does not preclude the fact Christ had but one denomination in the Biblical NT--and that denomination was founded upon the living, mortal apostles and prophets.

[alanmolstad]

denominations are not different religions..
Denominations are not different faiths.

We are all part of the same boidy,,,but that as with a human body, the body of Christ has many different parts.

many parts united in the whole body.




This fits with the story I told about in the Bible where the 12 came to Jesus and told them that they had tried to stop of man from teaching because he was not connected to Jesus or the 12.

But Jesus interrupts them and tells them to not stop the man, for Jesus knew that the whole body has many members, and not all are going to be the same part.

So Jesus has no problem with a different denomination, He was only interested in not stopping people from spreading the faith....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

denominations are not different religions.. Denominations are not different faiths.

Please do explain how the Catholic and the Protestant denominations are of the same faith and religion.

If that were so--why was there a need for a Reformation--where new denominations were started--with a different theology?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Please do explain how the Catholic and the Protestant denominations are of the same faith and religion.

well...lets see...

I am baptized in the Catholic church...Im also baptized in the Lutheran church....raised within the Lutheran church, attended Lutheran conformation cl***, and Im confirmed in the Anglican church....
Over the years and we moved from one place to another, I have attended as my church home many different denominations.
I have also attended many different Christian churches over the years as a guest or guest speaker.

So I have done the needed research on this topic to be able to speak with some knowledge on the issue.

What you learn is that it's all the same Christian religion that you find wherever you go...
Different music
Different ways of worship....some more relaxed, some more straight-laced.
Different ways to be organized,

But the faith?......all the same.


the core teachings?....all the same.


many differences on the outsides?.....to be sure!


But one faith.




The body is made of many parts, many members, all they who look so different on the outsides.
But inside they share the same faith....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well...lets see...

I am baptized in the Catholic church...Im also baptized in the Lutheran church....raised within the Lutheran church, attended Lutheran conformation cl***, and Im confirmed in the Anglican church....
Over the years and we moved from one place to another, I have attended as my church home many different denominations.
I have also attended many different Christian churches over the years as a guest or guest speaker.

So I have done the needed research on this topic to be able to speak with some knowledge on the issue.

What you learn is that it's all the same Christian religion that you find wherever you go...
Different music
Different ways of worship....some more relaxed, some more straight-laced.
Different ways to be organized,

But the faith?......all the same.


the core teachings?....all the same.

Protestants and Catholics are the same religion and the same faith--with the same core teachings. We'll have to remember than, Alan.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Protestants and Catholics are the same religion and the same faith--with the same core teachings. We'll have to remember than, Alan.

let me know if you have any questions...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

let me know if you have any questions...

Your statement that Protestants and Catholics are of the same faith and religion--with the same core teachings--just about says it all.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Your statement that Protestants and Catholics are of the same faith and religion--with the same core teachings--just about says it all.

Like I said, you can go from one church to the next and while they have their own individual ways of being organized and do have teachings that I may disagree with, what you also see is that the core teachings of the Christian faith are found in both major branches of the christian church...

The way I see it it's like this..

For the essentials we have unity
For the nonessential we have diversity
and in all things we show charity .....

The hand is not lesser in the body just because it's not the foot....
Nor is the foot more of the body than the hand.

This does not mean that the hand or the foot cant serve their own purpose and do things that the other simply can not do by design.
But it also mean that both the hand and the foot are of the one body...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Like I said, you can go from one church to the next and while they have their own individual ways of being organized and do have teachings that I may disagree with, what you also see is that the core teachings of the Christian faith are found in both major branches of the christian church...

The way I see it it's like this..

I'm not questioning your right to see it whatever way you will--but the comment the Protestants and the Catholics share the same faith and religion is a little naive, IMO.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I'm not questioning your right to see it whatever way you will--but the comment the Protestants and the Catholics share the same faith and religion is a little naive, IMO.

As someone who went to a catholic grade school for 8 years and became a born again Christian later in life, and now worships in a Baptist church, I can tell you Catholics and Protestants do not share the same faith or religion.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by disciple

As someone who went to a catholic grade school for 8 years and became a born again Christian later in life, and now worships in a Baptist church, I can tell you Catholics and Protestants do not share the same faith or religion.

Hi Disciple:

I know that--and I don't understand the comments to the contrary.

I attended a Baptist theology school for 2 years--and I can tell you for a fact--they do not share the same religion nor faith the Catholics do. That's the very cause of the Reformation--and one of the reasons for the rise of Protestantism.

My wife was a Baptist for a number of years--as are most of our converts, here in the South. Good people--I have a big respect for them. No one better bad mouth Baptists around my wife--they will catch a heel if they do.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

As someone who went to a catholic grade school for 8 years and became a born again Christian later in life, and now worships in a Baptist church, I can tell you Catholics and Protestants do not share the same faith or religion.

Use the following- Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Mormon, Jehovah's Witness, Buddhist, Moon's, Anglican,
and fill in the following blank questions.




so.....trinity is not taught in____ church?

So the fact that Jesus is both God and man is not taught in ___ church?

So the very real death of Jesus is not taught in ____ church?


So the resurrection of Christ is not taught in ____ church?


So the ascending of Christ of Christ into heaven is not taught in ____ church?


So the teaching that there is but "One God" is not taught in ____ church?

So the teaching that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary is not taught in ____ church?

So the teaching that one day Christ will return is not taught in ____ church?





Here is the deal,
I cant speak for the type of religious teachings you may have received in your past....and it is very true that within many churches they try to really put down other members of the Body of Christ....this tendency to look down on others actually goes back to the very beginnings of our church and it is the reason we are all reminded in the Bible that we are all members of the same body , yet very different from each other too.

Yet, if you allow yourself a chance to look past the differences over the debatable matters and seek to understand what truly binds the church into one body, it is then you see that what unites us is far greater than what divides us.




It's the same in every family.....for we tend to see only the problem issues with our own brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers, until that day when we see our family being attacked....and it is then we see that what binds us to them is still very strong.



we are told that by our "love" you will know us by.
And this type of "love" is greater and comes out as being very strong....a lot stronger then the bickering voices within the family.




The reason I asked the questions above and provided the names was to remind people that there truly are different religions out there, there truly are religions that are not seen as Christian at all.
And while there are differences between many groups, we should not attempt to cl*** every disagreement on every issue as being all equal.

I may disagree with what this or that Christian church teaches on the role of women or gays in ministry, yet I also have to keep in mind that this is far less of importance than disagreeing over the Trinity or the Resurrection.

[disciple]

Hi Alan,

The problem I have with Catholicism is false teaching and as you know from the scriptures we are to beware and avoid false teachers. I don't think you would disagree with that.
Some of the problems includes the false teaching concerning Mary. She is given the power only God can have, such as being able to hear and answer prayers, position as co-redeemer, etc. The pope, the saints, works, mandatory sacraments, etc.,etc. These can't be considered tolerable differences.

[alanmolstad]

I remind people to use charity when looking at other members of the body of Christ...

The foot should not consider the hand as being lesser of the body...But the foot does not have to wish it was the hand..

The foot has every right to feel happy its a foot.


In the same way, I do not think lesser of other members of the faith just because they have different views on many issues than my own...
But I can feel happy I have different views

[alanmolstad]

so in the real world it works out like this...


I take a member of my family to catholic churchj, and there I sit and listen to the guy speaking, and within most sermons I dont find any errors or much to disagree with,.

So I agree with all that is taught?....nope.


I attended Bible school at a non-Catholic denomination, and listened every day to the instructors.

So I agreed with all that was taught?......nope.




I attended for years a non-denomination church in Seattle. I even got to speak there in ftont on thousands of people.

So did I agree with every thing their preacher said on every topic?......nope.




I had a friend for a while as a teenager who was in the SDA church, so I attended their Bible lessons on the end Times.

So did I agree with all of their views?.......nope.







and.......



I have been married to the same girl for over 37 years


So do she and i always agree ?..............nope.






So what holds it all together?.......love.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

-why was there a need for a Reformation-

You have asked this same question before, and my answer tio it has not changed.


I attended years and years of Lutheran Sunday school, as well as fully attending Lutheran confirmation cl***.....so the topic as to why the Lutheran church got started has come up in my life a few times.


The answer is all built on the The 95 Theses.
They are the heart of the split between the different protestant and catholic church.

to understand the split all you need to do is read from the The 95 Theses.


It was over money.
It was over fund raising.

all of the split within the two branches of the christian church ad at it center that way the catholic church raised funds for building projects.


The manner used to raise funds strayed over into weird non-bible teachings that the people objected to, and Luther objected to.



For additional reading on the topic behind the split, here is a link -
http://www.history.com/topics/martin...-the-95-theses

[alanmolstad]

so why are there so many different branches of the christian church?

The answer is that this situation is clearly the way God wanted it as seen clearly at MARK 9:38

"Teacher," said John, "we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."

This is the very first sign that a new denomination of the church was starting up that was not connected to the Apostles.
This also would have been the perfect moment for Jesus to step in and make it very clear that there could be only one branch of the true church and it had to be under the authority of and based on the foundation of the Apostles authority.

yet look at what Jesus does!


He forbids his men from getting in the way of this stranger!!!!!!

This means that this other guy, who all on his own has started up his own ministry, actually stands on equal footing as the ministries that claim to be in the footsteps of the Apostles!

So back to our question , "Why are there so many different branches to the Christian church?
The answer is found at 1 Corinthians 12


For the body does not consist of one part, but of many. 15If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body

So......


so now we have our answer!

We find different branches in God's church because we are different as people.....just as the human body has many different parts, so to does the Body of Christ have different parts that are united by faith into the same body.

its that simple....it's also God's design.

[Christian]

berry posted:

[QUOTE] Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
there is one body, but many members....

the hand is not the foot....nor does it really even slightly look like the foot on the outside.

But underneath you do find that both the hand and the foot are all part of the same body with many different parts.

Now should the church feel bad that not all members are under the same official org?All the parts are members of the same body.

Could you give us a cite where God accepted any denomination other than the one found in the Biblical NT:

Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)[/QUOTE

You mean like the 'church of the Ephesians?' and the 'church of the laodeceans?' Like that?

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Where do we find numerous denominations which God accepted in the Biblical NT

You mean like the lds strangites and the fundamentalists, etc? THEY have their own "12 apostles" JUST LIKE THE UTAH MORMONS DO. So do each of the 150 or so DIFFERENT smith-group denominations.

Why should we BELIEVE the claims that YOUR denomination makes? THEY say YOU are the fakes. . .why should we believe ANY of you?



No one questions the fact you can do what you want--only the NT church had living, mortal apostles and prophets which they were founded upon

You left out JESUS Whom the entire thing was founded upon. WHERE IS YOUR 'living, mortal JESUS?' Same place as HIS Apostles and prophets? IN HEAVEN?
Your cult's teaching is bogus heresy.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

You mean like the lds strangites and the fundamentalists, etc? THEY have their own "12 apostles"

Just a point here--it's the ones who do not have the foundation which cannot qualify.

Then--there are the pretenders.

The Lord's church has this foundation--the living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

All who do not possess that foundation cannot qualify as the Lord's church--they are automatically eliminated as to their claim to be the Lord's church.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Just a point here--it's the ones who do not have the foundation which cannot qualify.

Then--there are the pretenders.

The Lord's church has this foundation--the living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

All who do not possess that foundation cannot qualify as the Lord's church--they are automatically eliminated as to their claim to be the Lord's church.

You left out the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the foundation. . .THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE JESUS CHRIST.

IF you think this p***age REQUIRES Christ's church to continue to have LIVING MORTAL Apostles, then WHERE IS YOUR LIVING MORTAL JESUS CHRIST? Hidden in the basement of your SLC temple building?

IF your 'apostles' have to be LIVING ALIVE MORTALLY ON EARTH, THEN your 'jesus' must be too!

BUT

OF COURSE HE IS NOT. You can PRETEND that those your particular cult has chosen are "apostles" but your cult CANNOT SUCCESSFULLY PRETEND to chose a 'jesus.

'NOT VERY CONSISTENT, ARE YOU? You are just like the 'fundamentalist mormons' and the 'strangites' THEY don't have a 'living mortal jesus' either, just like your group.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

You left out the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the foundation. . .THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE JESUS CHRIST.

No he didn't. He included him twice.

IF your 'apostles' have to be LIVING ALIVE MORTALLY ON EARTH, THEN your 'jesus' must be too!

Non sequitur. That's just an arbitrary rule you made up.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Just a point here--it's the ones who do not have the foundation which cannot qualify.

Then--there are the pretenders.

The Lord's church has this foundation--the living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone:

Ephesians 2:20--King James Version (KJV)
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

All who do not possess that foundation cannot qualify as the Lord's church--they are automatically eliminated as to their claim to be the Lord's church.

Originally Posted by Christian

You left out the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the foundation. . .THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE JESUS CHRIST.

Please reread my post.

IF you think this p***age REQUIRES Christ's church to continue to have LIVING MORTAL Apostles, then WHERE IS YOUR LIVING MORTAL JESUS CHRIST?

The living, mortal apostles continued after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:4-5--King James Version (KJV)
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Please reread my post.



The living, mortal apostles continued after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Acts 16:4-5--King James Version (KJV)
4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

ALL SORTS of Christians continued after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. . .AND they all physically died WITH NO PROVISION TO REPLACE ANY OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS EXCEPT JUDAS. NEVER did Jesus REQUIRE that HIS CHURCH have 'mortal apostles' as a CONTINUING PART OF HIS EARTHLY CHURCH

Joey smith MADE THAT UP. You can find NOTHING FROM GOD IN HIS WORD (THE BIBLE) to support you.

Do you think Jesus 'just forgot' to set something up?

That joey smith was SMARTER than Jesus?

BTW JESUS continues TO THIS DAY, at the right hand of His Father, just as the REAL apostles continue TO THIS DAY IN HEAVEN.

Just because you 'call' a dozen or so folks 'apostles' or 'seventies' or 'swishy-swashers' DOES NOT MAKE THEM BECOME THOSE THINGS OR IN ANY WAY 'SPECIAL' IN THE EYES OF GOD.

All it does is show the BIBLICAL IGNORANCE of those folks who participate in that junk. BOTH those who CALL them those things, AND those who CALL THEMSELVES those things. BIBLICAL IGNORANCE is RAMPANT in your cult.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

BTW JESUS continues TO THIS DAY, at the right hand of His Father, just as the REAL apostles continue TO THIS DAY IN HEAVEN.

what active role do those dead apostles in heaven take in directing Christianity down here, today?


or maybe you believe that Peter, Thomas, Jude, Paul, etc. come down from heaven to tell the catholics and protestants and orthodox what to do and what not to do, what to teach and what not to teach?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

what active role do those dead apostles in heaven take in directing Christianity down here, today?

?

From the text it seems clear that the church in heaven is very active in both witnessing the events going on here, as well as talking with the Lord and asking him to take steps.

They seem fully aware of life on earth, and what God was about to do and seem to be intervening or asking the Lord to move forward with the plans that they seem to know He has for the ones on the earth. .