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Thread: no need to restore the truth

  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hey DB,

    Perhaps I can ask the question a different way. Which comes first, faith or works?
    Why must there be a "first"?

    From the Book of Mormon:

    "Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God."

    From this verse:

    Who perfects us? Christ.

    What does he expect from us? To deny all ungodliness and to love him with all of our might, mind and strength.

    What happens if we do this? He perfects us (we don't perfect ourselves--by his grace, he perfects us).

    What is the result? When we see his grace in our lives, and by such, we gain a sure testimony of his grace and power."

    Faith and works are intertwined like the threads of a cloth. We have faith and obey and our faith is increased. Sometimes we struggle to believe, but we obey first and then our faith is increased.


    Mar 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  2. #252
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hey DB,

    Perhaps I can ask the question a different way. Which comes first, faith or works?
    Hi Disciple:

    Faith without works is dead, so they work together in salvation. One is not independent of another in obtaining eternal life, as the scriptures show:

    Matthew 25:31-46--King James Version (KJV)
    31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
    32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
    33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
    38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
    39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
    42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
    43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

  3. #253
    alanmolstad
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    Christians are saved by grace though faith and not by works.


    We are not saved by faith

    We are not saved by works.

    We are not saved by faith and works.

    We are not saved by any combination of faith and works.

  4. #254
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Hi DB,
    I understand that faith without works is dead and the reasoning behind that statement is obvious, if someone talks the talk they must walk the walk.
    But the truth behind "faith without works is dead" is that the unsaved cannot do works that please God only those first born again are described in the following way.

    "
    For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" Eph. 2:10
    God prepared the works, they are not on the path to salvation, they are ahead after salvation. Remember the scriptures tell us that there are none who do good and none who seek after God.

  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Christians are saved by grace though faith and not by works.

    We are not saved by faith

    We are not saved by works.

    We are not saved by faith and works.

    We are not saved by any combination of faith and works.
    Thank you, Alan. I agree--the only question that remains, once we accept the fact we are saved by God's grace, is--who does God give His grace unto life to?

    Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
    9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi DB,

    I understand that faith without works is dead and the reasoning behind that statement is obvious, if someone talks the talk they must walk the walk.
    Hi Disciple:

    I agree--and the reason is obvious:

    1 John 1:7--King James Version (KJV)
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

    But the truth behind "faith without works is dead" is that the unsaved cannot do works that please God only those first born again are described in the following way.
    The truth behind faith without works is dead is just what it states--faith without works is dead--and one can't be saved through a dead faith.

    Colossians 3:24-25---King James Version (KJV)
    24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
    25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

    For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them" Eph. 2:10
    God prepared the works, they are not on the path to salvation, they are ahead after salvation.
    Matthew 7:19-27--King James Version (KJV)
    19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
    20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
    21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
    24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
    25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
    26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
    27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

    Remember the scriptures tell us that there are none who do good and none who seek after God.
    What I remember is what the scriptures bear testimony to:

    1 John 3:7--King James Version (KJV)
    7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

  7. #257
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Thank you, Alan. I agree--the only question that remains, once we accept the fact we are saved by God's grace,.......
    One again :

    We are saved by Grace though faith ....



    Thats how we are saved...

    There is nothing else...
    There is no other means...
    There is no other way...


    We are saved by Grace though faith




    We are not saved by Grace though faith and works.

  8. #258
    alanmolstad
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    Now a man came to Jesus and asked what were the works that God required.

    Jesus answered that there is but one work, ,,,,,he called it "thee work", meaing that there is only this one and no others...it's alone, its this one thing and nothing else.

    And what was that 'work"?


    To believe in Jesus!!!!!.
    Thats right, the only so-called work is to put your faith in the Lord Jesus.

  9. #259
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    I agree that it is grace, there is nothing we can do by our own effort that will merit anything. But being born again we are now amb***adors for Christ and have the duties and works of the one who sends us to carry out.

  10. #260
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    We are not saved by Grace though faith and works.
    Then you believe one is saved through a dead faith?

    James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Alan--could you collate your statement above--with the fact Christ testified all men wil be judged in accordance with their works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

    John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    I agree that it is grace, there is nothing we can do by our own effort that will merit anything.
    Hi Disciple:

    Was God giving His salvational grace of the remission of sins to those who repented and were water baptized--something that you would consider as nothing to do with our own efforts?

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 10:34-35---King James Version (KJV)
    34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

    Disciple--the theology which preaches obtaining salvation independent of any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ--is the most obvious lie satan has ever pawned upon mankind.

    God giving His eternal life to anyone but those who obey Him? The disobedient? Really?

    2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


    And--may I add--vengeance to them which preach a doctrine one need not obey Christ in order to receive of His grace unto life.

  12. #262
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    Hi DB,
    Sorry I cannot reply with quotes but quick reply is the only way I can post.

    Why and how were these people saved?
    The penitent woman (Luke7:37-50), the paralytic man (Matthew 9:2),the publican (Luke 18:13-14), and the thief on the cross (Luke23:39-43) all experienced forgiveness of sins apart from baptism. For that matter, we have no record of the apostles' being baptized, yet Jesus pronounced them clean of their sins (John 15:3--note that the Word of God, not baptism, is what cleansed them).
    The Bible also gives us an example of people who were saved before being baptized. In Acts10:44-48, Cornelius and those with him were converted through Peter'smessage. That they were saved before being baptized is evident from their reception of the Holy Spirit (v. 44) and the gifts of the Spirit (v. 46) before their baptism. Indeed, it is the fact that they had received the Holy Spirit(and hence were saved) that led Peter to baptize them (cf. v. 47).

  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Then you believe one is saved through a dead faith?

    James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
    20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
    23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
    24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
    26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    Alan--could you collate your statement above--with the fact Christ testified all men will be judged in accordance with their works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

    John 5:28-29---King James Version (KJV)
    28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.
    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi DB,
    Sorry I cannot reply with quotes but quick reply is the only way I can post.

    Why and how were these people saved?
    By God's grace--which was extended to them which obeyed Him--and did His works.

    The penitent woman (Luke7:37-50), the paralytic man (Matthew 9:2),the publican (Luke 18:13-14), and the thief on the cross (Luke23:39-43) all experienced forgiveness of sins apart from baptism.
    What is your evidence of that?

    Mark 1:1-5---King James Version (KJV)
    1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
    2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
    3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
    5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

    What is your evidence they were not included in the above baptisms?

    For that matter, we have no record of the apostles' being baptized,
    There is evidence Jesus did baptized His disciples(apostles):

    John 3:22---King James Version (KJV)
    22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

    John 4:1-2---King James Version (KJV)
    1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,
    2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

    The argument is as such:

    John 3:22 states Jesus baptized--and was with His disciples when doing so.

    John 3:2 states Jesus baptized not--but His disciples.

    That has one of two different meanings:

    1) Jesus did not baptize--only His disciples baptized.
    2) Jesus did not baptize anyone but His disciples.

    Since Jesus was recorded as baptizing, in John3:22--when He was with His disciples--I elect # 2 option--Jesus did not baptize anyone but His disciples.

  14. #264
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Hi DB,

    I believe it is option 1, His disciples did the baptizing. In your option did Jesus baptize Judas?

  15. #265
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi DB,

    I believe it is option 1, His disciples did the baptizing. In your option did Jesus baptize Judas?
    Hi Disciple:

    I know--but that puts you at odds with what the scriptures teach:

    John 3:22---King James Version (KJV)
    22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

    I find, IMO--- the faith alone will deny whatever they have to in order to establish their own theology.

    Matthew 15:8-9---King James Version (KJV)
    8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
    9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

    Yes, I do believe Jesus not only baptized Judas--but also chose him as one of the twelve apostles.

  16. #266
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Hey DB,

    I'm not trying to establish my own theology, I'm engaging in discussion. I'm not trying to win, I don't hate you, I'm not trying to get you to convert.
    Just a discussion.
    So when Jesus baptized Judas, did Judas receive the Holy Spirit.

  17. #267
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hey DB,

    I'm not trying to establish my own theology, I'm engaging in discussion. I'm not trying to win, I don't hate you, I'm not trying to get you to convert.
    Just a discussion.
    So when Jesus baptized Judas, did Judas receive the Holy Spirit.
    Hi Disciple:

    I understand you don't hate me--nor do I believe you are attempting to convert me, and neither do I believe you are rude or offensive.

    But you do deny the scriptures, or push them aside whenever they conflict with your theology-- and that can be easily discovered by just reading through your posts.

    The Holy Ghost didn't seem to be given, as a general outpouring--until after Pentecost, in Acts2. Judas was dead by then.

  18. #268
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Hi DB,
    I really don't think I've denied any scriptures that were in the correct context.
    Why would Jesus knowingly baptize a devil, I think you are wrong.
    "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." John 6:70-71

  19. #269
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi DB,I really don't think I've denied any scriptures that were in the correct context.
    Hi Disciple:

    The catch 22 to that is---the scriptures are never in context when they defy your theology.

    Why would Jesus knowingly baptize a devil, I think you are wrong.

    "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." John 6:70-71
    Well--if Jesus chose Judas as an apostle of the Lord--then why would adding baptism be a deal breaker? You certainly don't equate water baptism with salvation. Only, the scriptures do.

    The scriptures indicate Jesus baptized His disciples. It does not state a few of His disciples--or all, but Judas--but, simply--His disciples. Judas was one of His disciples.

    So--what is your point in all this?

  20. #270
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Hi DB,
    I really don't think I've denied any scriptures that were in the correct context.
    Why would Jesus knowingly baptize a devil, I think you are wrong.
    "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve." John 6:70-71
    Oh boy, at this point, you are arguing against scripture--not against Dberrie. Correctly put, you should state "I think the scriptures' are wrong, since they do not exclude Judas as being baptized, nor chosen by Christ.

    (I am trying to picture the conversation now where Christ explains to Judas why he won't baptize him like the rest. Yeah, I just can't picture it.)
    Last edited by BigJulie; 04-05-2017 at 03:53 PM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  21. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Oh boy, at this point, you are arguing against scripture--not against Dberrie. Correctly put, you should state "I think the scriptures' are wrong, since they do not exclude Judas as being baptized, nor chosen by Christ.

    (I am trying to picture the conversation now where Christ explains to Judas why he won't baptize him like the rest. Yeah, I just can't picture it.)
    It's been my experience most people tailor the scriptures to fit their theology--rather than tailor their theology to fit the scriptures. And then--claim "out of context" to anything which defies their theology. It seems sometimes the better part of the Bible is "out of context" to some.

    The fact is--what one finds in the Biblical NT--one will find in the LDS church--as to salvational doctrines. The LDS don't have to do the "out of context" exclusions. The Biblical doctrines fit their core salvational doctrines well.

    Most which attempt to pawn the Bible as their pattern--are surprised to find they cannot defend their theology, when they run upon someone who really knows the Bible.

    And, IMO-- that's the greatest threat to most LDS critics--the one who knows the Bible, and can use it effectively in their defense.

    Julie--I have studied the Bible for over 30 years--and I can testify to you--the Bible fits the LDS church core salvational doctrines better than any other church, that I am aware of. The Bible is the best kept secret in the LDS church also. The LDS have not yet learned to use it in their discussions, and it is the best friend they have. Not even the Book of Mormon fits LDS doctrine as well as the Bible does.

    It will take 20 years of diligent study--but that is what it takes. The Bible is one thing the critics of the church did not figure upon being used against them--and is the source they cannot deny. They can defy the Book of Mormon, or any other source--as something that is man-made--but the Bible becomes the poison they have to drink(and when it testifies against one--it becomes their poison).

    I love the Bible. It has great truths which vindicate the LDS core salvational doctrines, and which glorify God.

  22. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    It's been my experience most people tailor the scriptures to fit their theology--rather than tailor their theology to fit the scriptures. And then--claim "out of context" to anything which defies their theology. It seems sometimes the better part of the Bible is "out of context" to some.

    The fact is--what one finds in the Biblical NT--one will find in the LDS church--as to salvational doctrines. The LDS don't have to do the "out of context" exclusions. The Biblical doctrines fit their core salvational doctrines well.

    Most which attempt to pawn the Bible as their pattern--are surprised to find they cannot defend their theology, when they run upon someone who really knows the Bible.

    And, IMO-- that's the greatest threat to most LDS critics--the one who knows the Bible, and can use it effectively in their defense.

    Julie--I have studied the Bible for over 30 years--and I can testify to you--the Bible fits the LDS church core salvational doctrines better than any other church, that I am aware of. The Bible is the best kept secret in the LDS church also. The LDS have not yet learned to use it in their discussions, and it is the best friend they have. Not even the Book of Mormon fits LDS doctrine as well as the Bible does.

    It will take 20 years of diligent study--but that is what it takes. The Bible is one thing the critics of the church did not figure upon being used against them--and is the source they cannot deny. They can defy the Book of Mormon, or any other source--as something that is man-made--but the Bible becomes the poison they have to drink(and when it testifies against one--it becomes their poison).

    I love the Bible. It has great truths which vindicate the LDS core salvational doctrines, and which glorify God.
    I agree, our theology fits the Bible perfectly. Anytime I read revelation from Joseph Smith, I understand that he must have, at some point, had a grand experience with God showing the big picture to him--because of how well what he taught fits with the Bible.

    I am often told I should do as the Bereans (from non-mormons) and test the scriptures. Well, when you test them, you are right, it backs our theology. I also wish people would think through their theology and thoughts as well.

    Things can sound good, but fall apart the minute you start thinking about them--such as Christ excluding one of his chosen twelve from baptism.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 04-05-2017 at 05:36 PM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  23. #273
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    I agree that it is grace, there is nothing we can do by our own effort that will merit anything. But being born again we are now amb***adors for Christ and have the duties and works of the one who sends us to carry out.
    well said!

    that is the correct answer and the best at***ude to take

  24. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    well said!

    that is the correct answer and the best at***ude to take
    Unfortunately, it is not Bibically sound doctrine. If there is no effort we can make, there is no works, and if there is no works then faith is dead and if faith is dead, there is no salvation.


    Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 04-05-2017 at 07:05 PM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  25. #275
    alanmolstad
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    who does the Bible say is actually doing the works in the next verse?

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