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Thread: no need to restore the truth

  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    You left out the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the foundation. . .THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE JESUS CHRIST.
    No he didn't. He included him twice.

    IF your 'apostles' have to be LIVING ALIVE MORTALLY ON EARTH, THEN your 'jesus' must be too!
    Non sequitur. That's just an arbitrary rule you made up.

  2. #402
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Just a point here--it's the ones who do not have the foundation which cannot qualify.

    Then--there are the pretenders.

    The Lord's church has this foundation--the living, mortal apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner Stone:

    Ephesians 2:20--King James Version (KJV)

    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    All who do not possess that foundation cannot qualify as the Lord's church--they are automatically eliminated as to their claim to be the Lord's church.
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    You left out the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the foundation. . .THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE JESUS CHRIST.
    Please reread my post.

    IF you think this p***age REQUIRES Christ's church to continue to have LIVING MORTAL Apostles, then WHERE IS YOUR LIVING MORTAL JESUS CHRIST?
    The living, mortal apostles continued after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Acts 16:4-5--King James Version (KJV)
    4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
    5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

  3. #403
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    Default Biblical ignorance is rampant in mormon religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Please reread my post.



    The living, mortal apostles continued after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    Acts 16:4-5--King James Version (KJV)
    4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
    5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

    ALL SORTS of Christians continued after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. . .AND they all physically died WITH NO PROVISION TO REPLACE ANY OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS EXCEPT JUDAS.
    NEVER did Jesus REQUIRE that HIS CHURCH have 'mortal apostles' as a CONTINUING PART OF HIS EARTHLY CHURCH

    Joey smith MADE THAT UP. You can find NOTHING FROM GOD IN HIS WORD (THE BIBLE) to support you.

    Do you think Jesus 'just forgot' to set something up?

    That joey smith was SMARTER than Jesus?


    BTW JESUS continues TO THIS DAY, at the right hand of His Father, just as the REAL apostles continue TO THIS DAY IN HEAVEN.

    Just because you 'call' a dozen or so folks 'apostles' or 'seventies' or 'swishy-swashers' DOES NOT MAKE THEM BECOME THOSE THINGS OR IN ANY WAY 'SPECIAL' IN THE EYES OF GOD.

    All it does is show the BIBLICAL IGNORANCE of those folks who participate in that junk. BOTH those who CALL them those things, AND those who CALL THEMSELVES those things. BIBLICAL IGNORANCE is RAMPANT in your cult.



  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    BTW JESUS continues TO THIS DAY, at the right hand of His Father, just as the REAL apostles continue TO THIS DAY IN HEAVEN.
    what active role do those dead apostles in heaven take in directing Christianity down here, today?


    or maybe you believe that Peter, Thomas, Jude, Paul, etc. come down from heaven to tell the catholics and protestants and orthodox what to do and what not to do, what to teach and what not to teach?
    From the forum rules: "The definition of a derogatory term is one that insults, belittles or treats a group or individual with contempt. "

    "If you have to resort to making fun of people and their ideas, you have nothing valuable to contribute here."

  5. #405
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    what active role do those dead apostles in heaven take in directing Christianity down here, today?

    ?
    From the text it seems clear that the church in heaven is very active in both witnessing the events going on here, as well as talking with the Lord and asking him to take steps.

    They seem fully aware of life on earth, and what God was about to do and seem to be intervening or asking the Lord to move forward with the plans that they seem to know He has for the ones on the earth. .

  6. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    From the text it seems clear that the church in heaven is very active in both witnessing the events going on here, as well as talking with the Lord and asking him to take steps.

    They seem fully aware of life on earth, and what God was about to do and seem to be intervening or asking the Lord to move forward with the plans that they seem to know He has for the ones on the earth. .

    so it's kinda like the catholic church's belief that dead christians are up in heaven doing stuff to intercede for living people, trying to convince God to do this or that for them?

    my other question is: if God doesn't want any living apostles down here anymore to run things, does that explain the chaos and anarchy that exist in christendom? if God didn't give apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, etc. to the church for the purpose of continuously helping to unify our faith, for the work of the ministry, and for the edification of the saints until they have a perfect knowledge of the Son of God approaching the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ,

    then what hope do we have of someday being no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men?

    what successes in the past 1800 years on the part of those dead apostles can we point to, to show that they've been up there doing to stuff to move christianity along on its way to that idealistic goal that Paul told the Ephesian saints about ?
    From the forum rules: "The definition of a derogatory term is one that insults, belittles or treats a group or individual with contempt. "

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  7. #407
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    so it's kinda like the catholic church's belief that dead christians are up in heaven doing stuff to intercede for living people, trying to convince God to do this or that for them?
    I cant really say what the catholic position is, ?

    But in the book of Revelation we do see that the dead in Christ are aware of stuff as I listed above.
    And that they do seem to be very involved in asking the Lord to do stuff.

  8. #408
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    ....

    my other question is: if God doesn't want any living apostles down here anymore to run things, does that explain the chaos and anarchy that exist in christendom?
    What we see is a church united on the essentials and open to diversity on the side issues...as it has always been.

    There is a story in the Bible of the problems Paul ran into and how he had to compromise to get over the hump of the disagreements he ran into with the church in Jerusalem.
    But he was also able to stand up and disagree with Peter to his face too.

    While we are lucky in the church to have our church built on the foundation of the Apostles and their works , we also know that it's the Holy Spirit that guides the church not men, nor positions that men hold.

    What we find very clearly taught inn the Bible is that Jesus did not want us to be united with all members forced to submit to the leadership of the apostles .
    That is very clearly taught in the story of the 12 attempting to stop of man from doing works in the name of Christ only because he did not follow the 12.

    Had Jesus wanted the church to be united under the leadership of the apostles that would have been the correct moment to teach that concept.
    But rather that supporting the idea, Jesus kicks open the door and holds that any of us, all on our own, without any type of authority over us at all, can be mighty blessed.

    Yes, the Christian Church is built on the foundation of the works of the apostles .

    and we in the church today, each Christian, shares now in the work of spreading the message of Christ that they began.

  9. #409
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post

    what successes in the past 1800 years on the part of those dead apostles can we point to, to show that they've been up there doing to stuff to move christianity along on its way to that idealistic goal that Paul told the Ephesian saints about ?

    a child is born on the other side of the world from the place where Jesus was born....thousands of years later.

    and another person is born and is seduced into joining a false religion that stems from the invented ideas of a sexual pervert who got gunned down because he could not keep from sniffing around younger and younger girls.

    and yet.....


    The first person is able to offer answers and hope to the 2nd.






    That is all the real proof I have that the work of God reaching out though the Body of Christ (the Christian church)continues to this very day.

  10. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    a child is born on the other side of the world from the place where Jesus was born....thousands of years later.

    and another person is born and is seduced into joining a false religion that stems from the invented ideas of a sexual pervert who got gunned down because he could not keep from sniffing around younger and younger girls.

    and yet.....

    The first person is able to offer answers and hope to the 2nd.

    That is all the real proof I have that the work of God reaching out though the Body of Christ (the Christian church)continues to this very day.
    that isn't very substantial proof. if that's the only thing those apostles have been able to do after being up there for 1800 years, maybe they aren't trying very hard?
    From the forum rules: "The definition of a derogatory term is one that insults, belittles or treats a group or individual with contempt. "

    "If you have to resort to making fun of people and their ideas, you have nothing valuable to contribute here."

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I cant really say what the catholic position is, ?
    it is pretty much like i said it is--which is pretty close to what you believe: saints who have died are up in heaven pleading to God to extend mercy to some of the people who are still alive down here. that's why catholics pray to certain dead saints, and to the virgin mary, basically asking them to pe***ion god on the behalf of people they care about. that is known as intercession of the saints, if i recall correctly. the vast majority of protestants consider this doctrine to be heresy and false.

    so while you may not support praying to dead saints, you do support the idea that they are up there working on god to get him to cut people some slack. of course, that doesn't really support your idea that because some dead apostles are up there doing that, it's proof that Jesus didn't want His apostles to keep running things down here as living beings. the fact that they tried to keep a succession going by replacing ones who had died, pretty much refutes your idea.

    But in the book of Revelation we do see that the dead in Christ are aware of stuff as I listed above.
    And that they do seem to be very involved in asking the Lord to do stuff.
    it looks like your beliefs on this subject are part catholic, and part mormon.

    congratulations
    From the forum rules: "The definition of a derogatory term is one that insults, belittles or treats a group or individual with contempt. "

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  12. #412
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    ALL SORTS of Christians continued after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. . .AND they all physically died WITH NO PROVISION TO REPLACE ANY OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS EXCEPT JUDAS.
    That does not explain why the apostleship continued:

    Acts 14:14---King James Version (KJV)
    14 Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

  13. #413
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    it is pretty much like i said it is.....
    im usually right on most issues I write on...
    The Scripture gives us a limited amount of information as to what the church in heaven is up to, but there are a few things we can see in the text that is true and can be trusted.

    The church in heaven is watching us here on the earth.

    The church in heaven knows about the current conditions of things.

    The church in heaven knows also the plan of God.

    The church in heaven is interacting with the Lord, and seems to be pleading with the Lord to take action
    .

    You learn this when you look at what i think are the two best examples in the Bible dealing with the current state of the church in heaven.
    The story of the Mt of Transfiguration.
    And the stroy of the church in heaven that is talked about in the book of Revelation.


    I do not count the story of the raising of the spirit of Samuel as I dont think that story is clear enough to teach anyone anything about the state of the dead.


    But from the other two accounts of where the dead do speak we can learn what i have stated above.







    Now as to the questions, "Do the friends and family I have in heaven watch me?.....my answer would be that this is likely very true based on what the bible does say about being surrounded by a great company of witnesses.


    "Do the friends and family talk to the Lord about me?".......Could be, but no clear verse goes into that type of detail.

    The list of related questions we might ask are endless i would guess, but we have to answer these types of matters with solid truths backed by the bible, and there is not all that much to use as the bible seems to be making a point to avoid this topic except for two very short examples.

  14. #414
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    ..... the fact that they tried to keep a succession going by replacing ones who had died, pretty much refutes your idea.


    The 12, or in this case the 11 did try to replace the one guy who hanged himself, this is true.

    Why did they do this?......not told it was ever God's idea.

    Does the bible say this replacement was ever for one moment God's idea?......nope!

    Did the 11 guys dicide who would be the replacement by just drawing straws, (flip the coin , etc)?...yes.
    There is no claim that the 11 make that God was incharge of this decision, nor do the 11 try to claim that "God picked him"...

    Rather what happened was that the 11 guys did this and then?......zip...nothing happens later..

    This 'replacement' drifts away into history and is quickly forgotten.




    An old saying is that "The proof of the pudding in in the tasting".....that you find out how things are going by the testing and seeing how things go later.
    and in this case, because the history of the replacement shows us that he simply was not important at all to the church.


    so that kinda does make it "case-closed' as to the idea that the "Apostle" was an office that gets p***ed on to others.





    it's also interesting to remember that Jesus actually asked more than just the 12 to "Follow me".
    Jesus did ask others to join his mission and stay with him...so there is nothing to the claim that the number "12" was all important so that after the loss of one guy they needed to replace him for some reason.

  15. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The 12, or in this case the 11 did try to replace the one guy who hanged himself, this is true.

    Why did they do this?......not told it was ever God's idea.

    Does the bible say this replacement was ever for one moment God's idea?......nope!

    Did the 11 guys dicide who would be the replacement by just drawing straws, (flip the coin , etc)?...yes.
    There is no claim that the 11 make that God was incharge of this decision, nor do the 11 try to claim that "God picked him"...

    Rather what happened was that the 11 guys did this and then?......zip...nothing happens later..

    This 'replacement' drifts away into history and is quickly forgotten.

    ....the history of the replacement shows us that he simply was not important at all to the church.

    so that kinda does make it "case-closed' as to the idea that the "Apostle" was an office that gets p***ed on to others.
    ...

    so you believe that the decision to replace judas iscariot with a new apostle, was not what Jesus wanted them to do.

    and you believe that ceasing to have apostles leading the church, didn't have any effect on the church--the loss of apostles running things didn't result in false doctrines flourishing, and in increased schisms and contentions among christians?
    From the forum rules: "The definition of a derogatory term is one that insults, belittles or treats a group or individual with contempt. "

    "If you have to resort to making fun of people and their ideas, you have nothing valuable to contribute here."

  16. #416
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    so you believe that the decision to replace judas iscariot with a new apostle, was not what Jesus wanted them to do.
    The Text clearly tells of how the 12 tried to get this other guy to stop doing works in the lord's name only because he was not following the 12 and was off all on his own.
    The way Jesus tells the 12 to not do that in the future teaches us that there really is no need to be under the authority of the 12 at all...regardless of how badly the 12 wanted to be important.

    the Text tells us the 11 who survived the death of Jesus did draw straws to pick a replacement for the one guy that killed himself, but we sure dont find any proof that this was God's command.
    It was perhaps predicted, but I dont think we can find any place where God informed the church to always replace one of the 12 when they die.
    Thus anyone who come forth with such a teaching is just pulling that idea out of thin air, and its also likely they get to be one of the 12 ...LOL



    Thats the one tip-off that you are dealing with an invented teaching.
    That when we find any religion that claims that you have to have a living "apostles" for your church to be true, that they just also happen to also claim to have living apostles...LOL


    It's sorta like Smith's claim that husbands can sleep around with other women, even married ones..Smith did not just "happen" to come out with that teaching.
    He came out with it because he was thinking that this "husband' was himself.....

    In other words, he had a dog in the fight....
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 05-23-2017 at 05:37 PM.

  17. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The Text clearly tells of how the 12 tried to get this other guy to stop doing works in the lord's name only because he was not following the 12 and was off all on his own.
    The way Jesus tells the 12 to not do that in the future teaches us that there really is no need to be under the authority of the 12 at all...regardless of how badly the 12 wanted to be important.
    Acts 16:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
    4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
    5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

    Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

    A foundation seems important to me.

  18. #418
    alanmolstad
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    Again. ...
    Notice when the 12 tried to stop a ministry not in any way connected to them....

    That ends the issue.

  19. #419
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Again. ...Notice when the 12 tried to stop a ministry not in any way connected to them....That ends the issue.
    And again--why would the Biblical text testify of something which is not true?

    Acts 16:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
    4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
    5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

    Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

  20. #420
    alanmolstad
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    The hand sometimes thinks it's more important than the feet..
    Yet even on the hand no two fingers are alike.

    It's the same in the body of Christ.

  21. #421
    alanmolstad
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    so there was this guy out there, doing works in the name of Christ and getting results.
    Then along come the 12 and they see this going on, and how this guy was unknown to them, and how he was not under their authority.
    So the 12 decide that they did not want people doing works that were not part of their own org, so they tried to stop him.

    Later, they talk about what they had seen going on and what they did to stop it with the Lord.

    The idea they must have had is that they were going to get a "Good ***" from Christ.
    The 12 were looking to hear that they and only they were to be spreading the word of the Lord to people, and that all others would be under their authority.
    They wanted to hear from Christ that all future teachings would be coming to the people though them.

    This would have been the correct moment for Jesus to make it clear that all future members of his church should be united under the control and oversight of the 12 hand-picked men .

    This would have been the moment to make it clear for all history that there is but one official church org, and that you had to join and be under the guidance of the Lord though his 12.

    But that did not happen.




    Not then.


    Not now.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 05-27-2017 at 06:31 AM.

  22. #422
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The hand sometimes thinks it's more important than the feet..Yet even on the hand no two fingers are alike.

    It's the same in the body of Christ.
    How does that preclude the foundation of the church was composed of the apostles and prophets--Jesus Christ being the Chief Corner stone?

    Acts 16:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
    4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
    5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

    Ephesians 2:20---King James Version (KJV)
    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

  23. #423
    alanmolstad
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    My point is that there is no such thing taught in the Bible that the church was ever united fully under an org that was controlled by the 12.....

    never...

    Not then, not now.

    But on the other hand what is very clear in the scriptures is that right from the start Jesus actually encouraged people to start up a ministry that were totally unconnected to the 12 and not under any org authority at all!

    This is the way Jesus wanted.




    In today's world we have tons and tons of totally unconnected denominations and there is freedom and Christians can visit different denomination of Christian church and pick what one most closely fits their own style of worship.

    In other words, the hands of the body can gather , all united under the core teachings that make us all Christian, yet the hand is not forcing the feet to be like them, nor are the feet asked to be like the hands.



    This is the way Jesus designed us to be like.

  24. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    so there was this guy out there, doing works in the name of Christ and getting results.
    Then along come the 12 and they see this going on, and how this guy was unknown to them, and how he was not under their authority.
    So the 12 decide that they did not want people doing works that were not part of their own org, so they tried to stop him.
    Later, they talk about what they had seen going on and what they did to stop it with the Lord.
    The idea they must have had is that they were going to get a "Good ***" from Christ.
    i think your summary of this p***age is very good, up to this point. the good works the man was doing was casting out devils in Jesus' name.

    The 12 were looking to hear that they and only they were to be spreading the word of the Lord to people, and that all others would be under their authority.
    not sure it says they were thinking about spreading the word, but at least they didn't think non-apostles should be exorcising demons.

    They wanted to hear from Christ that all future teachings would be coming to the people though them.
    i didn't see that in the p***age, it seemed to be all about who should and shouldn't be casting out demons

    This would have been the correct moment for Jesus to make it clear that all future members of his church should be united under the control and oversight of the 12 hand-picked men .
    unless the issue was just "it is okay for non-apostles to cast out demons?"

    This would have been the moment to make it clear for all history that there is but one official church org, and that you had to join and be under the guidance of the Lord though his 12.
    But that did not happen.
    maybe the apostles already knew that it was THEIR responsibility and authority to RUN the church. maybe what they misunderstood was just whether it was okay for church members who were non-apostles to be exorcising demons.

    plus, paul made it clear in his letter (4th chapter) to the ephesians that the apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists etc. were there to lead and guide the members so that someday they would reach a unified state of perfect faith and edification.
    From the forum rules: "The definition of a derogatory term is one that insults, belittles or treats a group or individual with contempt. "

    "If you have to resort to making fun of people and their ideas, you have nothing valuable to contribute here."

  25. #425
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    My point is that there is no such thing taught in the Bible that the church was ever united fully under an org that was controlled by the 12.....

    never...Not then, not now.

    But on the other hand what is very clear in the scriptures is that right from the start Jesus actually encouraged people to start up a ministry that were totally unconnected to the 12 and not under any org authority at all!
    Again--

    Acts 16:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
    4 And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
    5 And so were the churches established in the faith, and increased in number daily.

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