no need to restore the truth

[Christian]

Mickey posted:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]

Mickey posted:

Invisible means "unseen" not that He is actually invisible. There's plenty of biblical verses that show He is not invisible.

Invisible doesn't mean invisible? You think God lied when He led Paul to write:

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
NKJV

It begins from the creation of man made in the "image" of God

The INVISIBLE IMAGE, of God.


Definition of image
a representation of the external form of a person or thing.
synonyms: likeness, resemblance;

Now for the REAL definition of the word used in Genesis 1:27, instead of YOUR SELF-MADE-UP PIECE OF MODERN ENGLISH daffynishun:

OT:6754
tselem (tseh'-lem); from an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, i.e. (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence, a representative figure, especially an idol:
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


Of course IN YOUR IGNORANCE you would not know that was what the word REALLY meant. And IF YOU CAN READ, you should notice there is NOTHING THERE about "external" anything at all.

Jesus says if you have seen Him you have seen God. Jesus looks just like His Father.

Please explain how this is so if God is invisible.

ONLY if you 'read into the text' junk that is NOT THERE. Of myself, I can say if you have seen my son, you have seen me too. He doesn't look a BIT like me (and he is glad. . . ) But he LIVES like me, THINKS like me, ACTS A LOT like me.

That IDIOM does NOT need to refer to ANYTHING PHYSICAL AT ALL.

Your ignorance is showing.

Thank you for the information about the word tselem and actually these are the definitions

With NO SOURCE other than your own made up junk given, of course.

images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
image, likeness (of resemblance)
mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)

So it still can mean an actual physical resemblance. And invisible means "unseen" as in He does not show Himself, not that He cannot show Himself.

BUT of course, NOBODY HAS EVER SAID HE CANNOT show Himself. Your baby-games don't work, mickey.

You STILL have to "read into" your daffynishuns. Invisible does NOT mean 'unseen,' BUT DOES MEAN 'UNSEEABLE.' Once again your ignorance shows along with the brain-washing you have received from your heathen cult.

And in the case of God and Jesus Christ, they do look alike.

YOU have no 'authority' to pretend they do. ALL you have is YOUR OWN MADE-UP OPINION, no SCRIPTURE AT ALL.

How is Jesus God with a physical body if God doesn't and never will have a physical body?

Phil 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
NKJV

GOD said it. That settles it. You are following a false god, a false prophet (who cannot prophesy at all), and a bunch of LIES that joey smith invented.

I'll pray for your soul, that the ONLY REAL GOD ANYWHERE (Isaiah 43:10, etc etc etc) will save your poor lost soul and bring you to the REAL Jesus Christ.

IF you can't find HIM, you are condemned to Hell (not just a 'terrestrial kingdom.')

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Christian

Mickey posted:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
Thank you for the information about the word tselem and actually these are the definitions

With NO SOURCE other than your own made up junk given, of course.

images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
image, likeness (of resemblance)
mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)

So it still can mean an actual physical resemblance. And invisible means "unseen" as in He does not show Himself, not that He cannot show Himself.

BUT of course, NOBODY HAS EVER SAID HE CANNOT show Himself. Your baby-games don't work, mickey.

You STILL have to "read into" your daffynishuns. Invisible does NOT mean 'unseen,' BUT DOES MEAN 'UNSEEABLE.' Once again your ignorance shows along with the brain-washing you have received from your heathen cult.

And in the case of God and Jesus Christ, they do look alike.

YOU have no 'authority' to pretend they do. ALL you have is YOUR OWN MADE-UP OPINION, no SCRIPTURE AT ALL.

How is Jesus God with a physical body if God doesn't and never will have a physical body?

Phil 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
NKJV

GOD said it. That settles it. You are following a false god, a false prophet (who cannot prophesy at all), and a bunch of LIES that joey smith invented.

I'll pray for your soul, that the ONLY REAL GOD ANYWHERE (Isaiah 43:10, etc etc etc) will save your poor lost soul and bring you to the REAL Jesus Christ.

IF you can't find HIM, you are condemned to Hell (not just a 'terrestrial kingdom.')

Actually you'll need to read further in the Strongs Concordance

2 image, likeness, of resemblance, ׳בְּצ (בָּרָא) עָשָׂה, of God's making man in his own image, Genesis 1:26("" כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ), Genesis 1:27; Genesis 1:27; Genesis 9:6, ׳כְּצ Genesis 5:3 ("" בִּדְמוּתוֺ; all P).

3 figurative = mere, empty, image, semblance, ׳בְּצ Psalm 39:7 as (ב essentiae) a (mere) semblance man walks about; צַלְמָם תִּבְזֶה Psalm 73:20 thou wilt despise their semblance.

As you can see, the figurative definition does not apply to the Genesis verses

Thanks ~

[MickeyS]

And in the case of God and Jesus Christ, they do look alike.

YOU have no 'authority' to pretend they do. ALL you have is YOUR OWN MADE-UP OPINION, no SCRIPTURE AT ALL.

You have no authority to pretend they don't.

[MickeyS]

Thank you for the information about the word tselem and actually these are the definitions

With NO SOURCE other than your own made up junk given, of course.

images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods)
image, likeness (of resemblance)
mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)

These are the definitions in the Strong's Concordance that you directed me to

[MickeyS]

How is Jesus God with a physical body if God doesn't and never will have a physical body?

Phil 2:5-8
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.
[COLOR=#b22222]

"Being in the form of God"
Again...The Son looks like The Father...see Hebrews 1:3

"Did not consider it robbery to be equal with God"
He thought it was not taking away from God's status to call Himself "equal" to God, now that He Himself is in His resurrected body, like His Father, having completed the mission He was sent on, while during His mortal ministry He constantly referred to Himself as "less than" the Father in His mortal body.

"But made Himself of no reputation"
He had not taken the glory for Himself...

"and took upon him the form of a servant"
....when He became the servant of all providing the Atonement for everyone...

"and was made in the likeness of man"
....when He took a mortal body for His mission

And remember man is made in the likeness of God..so..again...God has...a body

Where does this say Jesus doesn't look like God? Or that God doesn't have a physical body?

Thanks~

[MickeyS]

GOD said it. That settles it.

I completely agree that if God says it...that settles it. Did you speak to God?

[MickeyS]

Christian said

Invisible doesn't mean invisible? You think God lied ..?

BUT of course, NOBODY HAS EVER SAID HE CANNOT show Himself.

Does invisible mean invisible or doesn't it?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Christian

I'll pray for your soul,

I do appreciate the sentiment, and I sincerely hope you mean it. In the end, we are all trying to do our best to move in the right direction. We need to not let our differences keep us from fulfilling the new commandment to love one another. I truly mean that. I'm not going to let this be a negative experience.

Thank you, I do pray for you as well...and me....I'm definitely a work in progress lol

[alanmolstad]

I will now talk about what it means when we say "image of the invisible God"



In Bible School we had to study this part of the text.
We talked about it and learned what concepts it deals with.
What I remember goes like this-



There is a box in front of you.
You pickup the box,and its light in weight, but there is something inside it you can tell.
At this moment your mind starts to create a "IMAGE" of what is inside the box.
But this image in unclear.
The object inside the box can not be seen, but you still have in your mind an "image" of what that object is.

You shake the box.
You feel and listen to the object inside the box as you shake the box.
The "Image"of the invisible object starts to become more clear to you.
The image starts to take shape in your mind.
You tilt the box and listen to see if the unseen object rolls inside the box?
You tilt the box the other way to see if that changes what the object does?

All this information will cause you to constantly review the mental image of the invisible object.

The more information you gather the more you refine the mental image of the unseen object inside the box.





Christ has two natures.
Christ is both God and Man.
The human body of Christ reflects the human nature of Christ.
But the spirit of Christ reflects that he is the image of God, for that is his hidden nature too!

for spirit is invisible, and will always be so.
The spirit cant ever be seen, cant ever be felt, cant ever ....never ever...

but flesh can be seen
flesh can be felt.

human flesh can be....both natural human flesh, and eternal resurrected human flesh can be seen and felt.

this means that although my body will rise out of the grave and i will be alive again, I yet still will always be simply human...
I do not change into another form of life.
I do not become a god.

Rather I am and will always be human.



Christ has 2 totally complete natures.
Christ is both God and man.


all that we can ever learn about God, is given to us in the man Christ Jesus.

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will now talk about what it means when we say "image of the invisible God"



In Bible School we had to study this part of the text.
We talked about it and learned what concepts it deals with.
What I remember goes like this-



There is a box in front of you.
You pickup the box,and its light in weight, but there is something inside it you can tell.
At this moment your mind starts to create a "IMAGE" of what is inside the box.
But this image in unclear.
The object inside the box can not be seen, but you still have in your mind an "image" of what that object is.

You shake the box.
You feel and listen to the object inside the box as you shake the box.
The "Image"of the invisible object starts to become more clear to you.
The image starts to take shape in your mind.
You tilt the box and listen to see if the unseen object rolls inside the box?
You tilt the box the other way to see if that changes what the object does?

All this information will cause you to constantly review the mental image of the invisible object.

The more information you gather the more you refine the mental image of the unseen object inside the box.





Christ has two natures.
Christ is both God and Man.
The human body of Christ reflects the human nature of Christ.
But the spirit of Christ reflects that he is the image of God, for that is his hidden nature too!

for spirit is invisible, and will always be so.
The spirit cant ever be seen, cant ever be felt, cant ever ....never ever...

but flesh can be seen
flesh can be felt.

human flesh can be....both natural human flesh, and eternal resurrected human flesh can be seen and felt.

this means that although my body will rise out of the grave and i will be alive again, I yet still will always be simply human...
I do not change into another form of life.
I do not become a god.

Rather I am and will always be human.



Christ has 2 totally complete natures.
Christ is both God and man.


all that we can ever learn about God, is given to us in the man Christ Jesus.

The major problem with your ****ogy is that it has man creating God in our image, or more exactly, our "invisible virtual image" of what's in the box.
But your ****ogy actually works if you compare it to what the Bible says.
It was God who created man and put him in the box... It is dark in the box and we can only guess as to what we look like. If then, we want to know what we "really" look like, there is no guessing, as we need only know what our Creator looks like.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will now talk about what it means when we say "image of the invisible God"

There is a box in front of you.
...there is something inside it you can tell.
....But this image in unclear.
The object inside the box can not be seen,

This is actually what I've been taught about the "Invisible" God. He is invisible because He cannot be seen, not because He is actually "invisible".

So the image part is real...but the "invisible" means unseen...the word
aóratos (from 1 /A "not" and 3708 /horáō, "see")

So it means "not" "see" (not to be confused with Nazi yeah I crack myself up )

So the actual image of a Being we cannot see, because He doesn't regularly show Himself to man.

That's what I was taught

[alanmolstad]

Spirit is totally invisible.
.God is spirit. And that is why all will ever know of the Father is shown us in the Son.

When we will see Jesus one day we will see him in a human body just like our own...for christ has 2 natures...both god and man..

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Spirit is totally invisible.
.God is spirit. And that is why all will ever know of the Father is shown us in the Son.

When we will see Jesus one day we will see him in a human body just like our own...for christ has 2 natures...both god and man..

How are there accounts of God being seen if He's invisible? Also, again, I'm curious as to your take on the importance if a physical body. So important that the entire ministry, suffering, atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ is centered around His mortal body? And now He is an exalted physical Being for eternity? If the body isn't important, why do we get ours back? I'm not sure if you explained this before...I didn't think we got that far.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

How are there accounts of God being seen if He's invisible? Also, again, I'm curious as to your take on the importance if a physical body. So important that the entire ministry, suffering, atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ is centered around His mortal body? And now He is an exalted physical Being for eternity? If the body isn't important, why do we get ours back? I'm not sure if you explained this before...I didn't think we got that far.

Abraham looked forward to seeing my day...saw it and was glad...

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Abraham looked forward to seeing my day...saw it and was glad...

....I know him...and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar...

No, seriously though, I'm not sure what you were saying with this verse lol

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

....I know him...and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar...

No, seriously though, I'm not sure what you were saying with this verse lol

, ok ,ok...
I posted that while at work on my phone....and so it was way too short for you to likely catch the connection to your question, so let me build on my idea.

My verse is very relevant to your question when you drop back and remember what my verse was dealing with.
Remember when Jesus spoke the words i quoted?
Remember what Jesus was talking about in that verse?

Jesus was telling people that Abraham had looked forward to seeing him, AND........Abraham did see Jesus!!!!


that is why the people reacted so badly to what Jesus was saying, and wanted to kill him, because they knew that Jesus had just claimed to be God.

This is because Jesus had just claimed to be the very same God that appeared to Abraham and had talked to him face to face during the whole issue with Lot and his family living in clearly the wrong place at the wrong time.

How does this connect to your question?.....like this-

What it means and what Jesus was teaching us for today is how to understand all the stories in the Old test where we see an appearance of God happen.

Jesus is saying, "Hey that was me"

[alanmolstad]

so that answers the very first part of your post about "seeing" the invisible god in the Old test.


Now later today I will start to address the rest of your post and we shall see how i do at that?

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Spirit is totally invisible.
.God is spirit. And that is why all will ever know of the Father is shown us in the Son.

When we will see Jesus one day we will see him in a human body just like our own...for christ has 2 natures...both god and man..

The spirit is only invisible to those who do not have spiritual eyes to see.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

How are there accounts of God being seen if He's invisible? Also, again, I'm curious as to your take on the importance if a physical body. So important that the entire ministry, suffering, atonement and resurrection of Jesus Christ is centered around His mortal body? And now He is an exalted physical Being for eternity? If the body isn't important, why do we get ours back? I'm not sure if you explained this before...I didn't think we got that far.

Was it on this topic or another that gave you the idea that the body is not important?

I need to know the context.
Where did I teach you that?

[alanmolstad]

Jesus has two natures.
Both fully human and fully god.
The body is fully human and is a sign that he is fully human.
God is spirit and the spirit of christ is of his nature as God almighty.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Was it on this topic or another that gave you the idea that the body is not important?

I need to know the context.
Where did I teach you that?

It was the other thread....I may have misunderstood your comments.

I said this
"So the body is not important then? Where do we find this in the Bible?"

And you said this
"You mean ashes to ashes, dust to dust?"

Like I said though...we didn't get further than that, so I don't know if that was an answer?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

, ok ,ok...
I posted that while at work on my phone....and so it was way too short for you to likely catch the connection to your question, so let me build on my idea.

My verse is very relevant to your question when you drop back and remember what my verse was dealing with.
Remember when Jesus spoke the words i quoted?
Remember what Jesus was talking about in that verse?

Jesus was telling people that Abraham had looked forward to seeing him, AND........Abraham did see Jesus!!!!


that is why the people reacted so badly to what Jesus was saying, and wanted to kill him, because they knew that Jesus had just claimed to be God.

This is because Jesus had just claimed to be the very same God that appeared to Abraham and had talked to him face to face during the whole issue with Lot and his family living in clearly the wrong place at the wrong time.

How does this connect to your question?.....like this-

What it means and what Jesus was teaching us for today is how to understand all the stories in the Old test where we see an appearance of God happen.

Jesus is saying, "Hey that was me"

Ughhhh!! I had a whole response penned and I lost it...site can be so
glitchy sometimes

Lol...it's ok...I guess I just wasn't sure what to take out of that verse but I get it.

I'll have to get back when I have a minute and try to re-pen what I was saying...I'm still on my little "vacay"

Cliff notes version...I know Christ is the Jehovah of the OT...I know He is God's agent here on earth and everything that's been done by The Father was through The Son. (Except for through the creation of man & when God appeared to Adam & Eve, introduced His Son, and when Stephen saw Him) I didn't realize you believed that, so...that's what I get for ***uming. Or as Chris would say "***uming" lol. So you believe every time God appeared to man in the OT it was really Christ. But that was before Jesus had a body and (I'm ***uming again ) wouldn't that have made Him pure spirit?? How would He have been seen? Again, I'm asking from what I would think your viewpoint would be, because I believe the Father & the Son literally look alike (if you've seen one, you've seen the other...etc..) and both have bodies.

I'm not saying there's NO WAY you should ever be able to interpret scripture the way you do, I can see the reasoning, I'm just trying to follow it when I'm seeing very obvious verses showing what I believe...I'm just looking for the biblical backup, you could say, for what you believe, that God is an immaterial purely invisible spirit. (Which again makes the Holy Ghost kinda redundant)

Sorry, had to type this fast, hope it's sensical (Omyword, my phone almost corrected that to "sensual" eeeek)

Oh....PS...how do you explain God appearing to Stephen?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

It was the other thread....I may have misunderstood your comments.

I said this
"So the body is not important then? Where do we find this in the Bible?"

And you said this
"You mean ashes to ashes, dust to dust?"

Like I said though...we didn't get further than that, so I don't know if that was an answer?

what came before that in the conversation?

All I see is me quoting what we all know to be true...


The body is but ash....the body is but dust...
it never is more than ash and dust...

it does not change and become ash and dust, rather it returns to what it always was...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Ughhhh!! I had a whole response penned and I lost it...site can be so
glitchy sometimes

on almost every post as of late I get error messages and stuff...many of my posts simple do not appear on the forum and are also lost..

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

So you believe every time God appeared to man in the OT it was really Christ.

What I believe is that everything we know about God, is though the Son....
I believe that every listing of God in the Old Test is the Son.