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Thread: no need to restore the truth

  1. #101
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyS View Post
    . But that was before Jesus had a body
    Out of a burning bush a voice spoke...and said."I am"

    Not "He is___"


    In Bible school we learned about such things...they are called a theophany.

  2. #102
    alanmolstad
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    God is pure spirit.
    God is and always will be, totally invisible...

    But so we can come to understand God, God the Son wrapped himself in the flesh of humanity , becoming a man.

    Jesus never stopped being Pure spirit, for that is his nature as God...

    Thus God the Son never stopped being God in his nature,never stopped being pure spirit.
    (and as we learned above pure spirit is and always will be totally invisible)

    But for us and our salvation he wrapped himself in human flesh...
    This is why we believe that Jesus has two natures...he is 100% God Almighty, and 100% man.

  3. #103
    alanmolstad
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    now in the Bible there are many times when God appears in different physical forms to men.

    a voice.

    a dove

    a burning bush.

    a column of fire

    a column of smoke.

    a man walking with friends.

    We call these moments a "theophany"

  4. #104
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyS View Post
    It was the other thread....I may have misunderstood your comments.
    I did a little searching and tracked down the conversation in question -
    http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...-Mormons-Agree

    Its post number #20 there that caused you to ask about my views on the importance of the human body.

    At the time you can see I was talking about how when the Bible tells us that Adam and Eve were made in the image of God, that this was not talking about our body of flesh.
    that caused you to ask if the body was not important then?

    My answer was to point out that the human body in the Bible is over and over told to us to be nothing but dust,
    Even Adam who was clearly said to be the very person made in the image of God, was told later that when he died his dead human body would "return" to the ground from where it was taken from.


    However we are also told that the "spirit" goes to the Lord who gave it to us.


    The human Body suffers corruption, but the human spirit is unchanged by the p***ing of time.

    In the resurrection, I will be given a new body, for the old body is gone.




    So it goes like this:
    Right now I am a spirit that is within a ever-failing human body.
    When I die my dead body will return to dust and become part of future bodies of all kinds of things and people, for that is how nature works.
    What is a body today is part of the cycle of life and becomes the body for something else, and so on, and so on, and so on...

    however when I die my spirit goes to be with the Lord...
    My spirit is made in God's image, and God draws me to himself at my death.

    When the resurrection happens, I come with the Lord from Heaven and rise up from the dead in a new body that is still a human body, but it's nature is different than the human body i had before.

    Still fully human, but now in a body of flesh that does not fall into corruption.

    I will rise up off the Earth (as Jesus did) and meet the Lord.






    after that, it gets kinda fuzzy as to what happens next...







    what I also said in that other topic's post number #20 was dealing with the moment that you might watch them lower my dead body into my grave.
    While I sure there will be tears, and you likely will want to toss yourself down too, like the young maidens were said to toss themselves onto the burning Viking funeral ships of a great and handsome leaders of old, yet I must also point out one thing before you do....


    My dead body is not made in the image of God.
    No human body was made in the image of God.

    the human body is dust,,,,,from dust to dust, ashes to ashes....





    That is what we are to think of this body.

  5. #105
    alanmolstad
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    so does that clear things up as to my thoughts on the human body?...as well as what I believe it means to be made in the image of God?

  6. #106
    MickeyS
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    so does that clear things up as to my thoughts on the human body?...as well as what I believe it means to be made in the image of God?
    Omygoodness I responded to this...it's not showing again... I'm not ignoring you, I'll get back later, catching my flight back today

  7. #107
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyS View Post
    Omygoodness I responded to this...it's not showing again... I'm not ignoring you, I'll get back later, catching my flight back today
    where you flying to?

  8. #108
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    where you flying to?


    oh thats right...no one much posts on the weekends when Im off work and COULD POST!!!!!!

  9. #109
    MickeyS
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    oh thats right...no one much posts on the weekends when Im off work and COULD POST!!!!!!
    Lol...again?? We're TRYING to get home to the Atlanta area and we are STUCK in Dallas....stupid nasty weather...had to get a room...extended unwelcome vacation

  10. #110
    MickeyS
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    where you flying to?
    We're FINALLY back home in GA...now I need a vacation from my vacation that was hell...like I would picture hell to be...an indefinite layover in an airport that's under construction ... There was this TV show called Reaper I used to watch years back about this guy who had to gather souls for the devil...dark comedy, hilariously irreverent..but one of the portals to hell was at a DMV my trip reminded me of that haha

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I did a little searching and tracked down the conversation in question -
    http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...-Mormons-Agree

    Its post number #20 there that caused you to ask about my views on the importance of the human body.

    At the time you can see I was talking about how when the Bible tells us that Adam and Eve were made in the image of God, that this was not talking about our body of flesh.
    that caused you to ask if the body was not important then?

    My answer was to point out that the human body in the Bible is over and over told to us to be nothing but dust,
    Even Adam who was clearly said to be the very person made in the image of God, was told later that when he died his dead human body would "return" to the ground from where it was taken from.


    However we are also told that the "spirit" goes to the Lord who gave it to us.


    The human Body suffers corruption, but the human spirit is unchanged by the p***ing of time.

    In the resurrection, I will be given a new body, for the old body is gone.




    So it goes like this:
    Right now I am a spirit that is within a ever-failing human body.
    When I die my dead body will return to dust and become part of future bodies of all kinds of things and people, for that is how nature works.
    What is a body today is part of the cycle of life and becomes the body for something else, and so on, and so on, and so on...

    however when I die my spirit goes to be with the Lord...
    My spirit is made in God's image, and God draws me to himself at my death.

    When the resurrection happens, I come with the Lord from Heaven and rise up from the dead in a new body that is still a human body, but it's nature is different than the human body i had before.

    Still fully human, but now in a body of flesh that does not fall into corruption.

    I will rise up off the Earth (as Jesus did) and meet the Lord.






    after that, it gets kinda fuzzy as to what happens next...







    what I also said in that other topic's post number #20 was dealing with the moment that you might watch them lower my dead body into my grave.
    While I sure there will be tears, and you likely will want to toss yourself down too, like the young maidens were said to toss themselves onto the burning Viking funeral ships of a great and handsome leaders of old, yet I must also point out one thing before you do....


    My dead body is not made in the image of God.
    No human body was made in the image of God.

    the human body is dust,,,,,from dust to dust, ashes to ashes....





    That is what we are to think of this body.
    So, is this resurrected glorified body in God's image? Is Christ's?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  12. #112
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    So, is this resurrected glorified body in God's image? Is Christ's?
    Its a human body....before and after the resurrection, still 100% human body...


    Here is a story I will tell you about to show how this is-

    I went to a funeral of a friend who had died due to cancer.
    I remember standing at the grave and thinking about the whole situation.

    It was then that it dawned on me...all that we put into the ground, all that "stuff"...you know, the dead flesh and bones...all that stuff...all of it is NOT made in the image of God.

    Because -
    "The spirit returns to the God who gave it"....

    "And God said, Let us make man in our image"

    "God is spirit"

    -for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 04-27-2016 at 06:11 PM.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Its a human body....before and after the resurrection, still 100% human body...


    Here is a story I will tell you about to show how this is-

    I went to a funeral of a friend who had died due to cancer.
    I remember standing at the grave and thinking about the whole situation.

    It was then that it dawned on me...all that we put into the ground, all that "stuff"...you know, the dead flesh and bones...all that stuff...all of it is NOT made in the image of God.

    Because -
    "The spirit returns to the God who gave it"....

    "And God said, Let us make man in our image"

    "God is spirit"

    -for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have
    Let's keep going that verse: In Luke:

    "And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

    But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit...

    Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

    So, Christ himself had a body of flesh and bones in his glorified resurrected state.

    I will ask you again. Is Christ in the image of God? Is he created in the image of God? Is he resurrected in the image of God?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  14. #114
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Let's keep going that verse: In Luke:

    "And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

    But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit...

    Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

    So, Christ himself had a body of flesh and bones in his glorified resurrected state.

    I will ask you again. Is Christ in the image of God? Is he created in the image of God? Is he resurrected in the image of God?
    again...I would refer you to my story of the funeral....


    God is spirit,

    but Christ is both fully God (spirit) and fully man (flesh).

    This is why the Bible teaches us of the word, "The Word became flesh"

    The Word "BECAME" flesh!

    The Word was not always flesh.
    For it says the Word was God, and as we have read, "God is spirit"
    The Word became flesh.








    So when Jesus appears in the flesh after the resurrection in his body, and tells his men, "A spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I have"...and we know that God is Spirit, guess who Jesus was including about not having a body of flesh and bone?



    That's right, the Father
    !
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 04-27-2016 at 08:06 PM.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    again...I would refer you to my story of the funeral....


    God is spirit,

    but Christ is both fully God (spirit) and fully man (flesh).

    This is why the Bible teaches us of the word, "The Word became flesh"

    The Word "BECAME" flesh!

    The Word was not always flesh.
    For it says the Word was God, and as we have read, "God is spirit"
    The Word became flesh.




    But you are ignoring the fact that Christ's flesh and bones did not stay in the ground.

    We have God is spirit, but who says that is not referring to the Holy Ghost? Or to the spirit of Christ? Why do you insist that this must be God the Father when we have Jesus Christ teaching us who God the Father is?

    So, once again, is Christ's resurrected body in the image of his Father? This is a simple yes or no?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  16. #116
    alanmolstad
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    Your answer is at #114

  17. #117
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    By the way, reading up on the words "spirit"--there is no difference between the word "spirit" and "ghost" in the New Testament Greek. There are also no caps. So, the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit and the Spirit versus the spirit does not exist in the original writings. This was also not there for Jerome, but was added later to keep with the "traditions" of the trinity.

    The Jewish argument (and my own confusion as well) is, if God the Father is a spirit, then the Holy Ghost is redundant.

    And if you did not have Christ in explaining he has a body of flesh and bones, would you use this scripture "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." (1 Peter 1:11) to argue that Christ also did not have a resurrected body?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Your answer is at #114
    Actually, it isn't. Why are you sure that God is spirit is not referring to the Holy Ghost?

    The truth is, the more I read the scriptures in the NT, the more I realize you have to ignore so many teachings of Christ to make the ***umption that Christ is not the express image of His Father.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 04-27-2016 at 08:23 PM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  19. #119
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Actually, it isn't. Why are you sure that God is spirit is not referring to the Holy Ghost?
    there are not 3 gods......

    There is only one God, and God is spirit....

    and God never stops being pure spirit.

    and a Spirit does not have arms and legs...thats silly.

  20. #120
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    The Jewish argument (and my own confusion as well) is, if God the Father is a spirit, then the Holy Ghost is redundant.
    Im sure you will have plenty of time to take that point up with Him.......or perhaps not

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    there are not 3 gods......

    There is only one God, and God is spirit....

    and God never stops being pure spirit.

    and a Spirit does not have arms and legs...thats silly.
    But, Jesus Christ is God and he is spirit and a resurrected body of flesh and bones. There is no reason to take one verse and use it to ignore all of Christ's other teachings or use it to nullify his other teachings or make them metaphorical.

    You haven't made your point scriptural-ly and just restating it over and over does not make it.

    Listen to this verse again ""Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." (1 Peter 1:11) to argue that Christ also did not have a resurrected body?"

    How was the Spirit of Christ within them? Once again, we know Christ had a body and currently has a glorified resurrected body, but this does not deter one from referring to HIS spirit that teaches rather than his body.

    So, then would you argue that the Spirit of Christ means that Christ CANNOT have arms and legs and that any such belief would be silly?
    Last edited by BigJulie; 04-27-2016 at 09:47 PM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Im sure you will have plenty of time to take that point up with Him.......or perhaps not
    But you have argued that I need to back my beliefs by the scriptures. So far, the scriptures do not back using one verse "God is spirit" to void every other things Christ said. In fact, there are so many times he teaches us that we learn of the Father by him, that God the Father is NOT invisible to Christ, the Christ does as He sees the Father do, that He is the express image of the Father, that there is NOTHING to support this version your belief that one verse nullifies all other teachings.

    Looking into this further, here is an interesting view from another church:

    http://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools...inity-doctrine

    Here is a quote "Anglican churchman and Oxford University lecturer K.E. Kirk revealingly writes of the adoption of the doctrine of the Trinity: “The theological and philosophical vindication of the divinity of the Spirit begins in the fourth century; we naturally turn to the writers of that period to discover what grounds they have for their belief. To our surprise, we are forced to admit that they have none . . ."
    Last edited by BigJulie; 04-27-2016 at 10:25 PM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  23. #123
    alanmolstad
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    God is spirit,

    but Christ is both fully God (spirit) and fully man (flesh).

    This is why the Bible teaches us of the word, "The Word became flesh"

    The Word "BECAME" flesh!

    The Word was not always flesh........(it seems a lot of people miss this important point)

    For it says the "Word was God", and as we have read, "God is spirit"
    The Word became flesh.




    So to review:
    The Word became flesh.
    The Word became human.
    This means that the Word was NOT flesh before.
    This means that the Word was not human before.
    This means that the Word became flesh
    This means that the Word became human!!!!!









    Now for the question....is the human body made in the image of God?....ever?
    The spirit returns to the God who gave it"....

    "And God said, Let us make man in our image"

    "God is spirit"

    -"for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have"





    There is your answer....God is Spirit, and when he made us in his image this spiritual-ness was what we are made in the image of.
    and as Christ taught, a Spirit does not have even glorified flesh and bones.




    Now we can go on on-and-on-and on.....but that is the answer we get from the Bible.





    That is the only answer the Bible has.

    All other answers come from some other source.....
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 04-28-2016 at 04:57 AM.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    God is spirit,

    but Christ is both fully God (spirit) and fully man (flesh).

    This is why the Bible teaches us of the word, "The Word became flesh"

    The Word "BECAME" flesh!

    The Word was not always flesh........(it seems a lot of people miss this important point)

    For it says the "Word was God", and as we have read, "God is spirit"
    The Word became flesh.




    So to review:
    The Word became flesh.
    The Word became human.
    This means that the Word was NOT flesh before.
    This means that the Word was not human before.
    This means that the Word became flesh
    This means that the Word became human!!!!!









    Now for the question....is the human body made in the image of God?....ever?
    The spirit returns to the God who gave it"....

    "And God said, Let us make man in our image"

    "God is spirit"

    -"for a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have"





    There is your answer....God is Spirit, and when he made us in his image this spiritual-ness was what we are made in the image of.
    and as Christ taught, a Spirit does not have even glorified flesh and bones.




    Now we can go on on-and-on-and on.....but that is the answer we get from the Bible.





    That is the only answer the Bible has.

    All other answers come from some other source.....
    You know Alan, all of your repeating and making your font larger does nothing to change what the scriptures say.

    And all of your repeating has caused me to do my own researching. What I found is that history does not support that the trinity came from doctrines found within the Bible but is a man-made concept. People can do their own research. It is there to be found.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    You know Alan, all of your repeating and making your font larger does nothing to change what the scriptures say.

    And all of your repeating has caused me to do my own researching. What I found is that history does not support that the trinity came from doctrines found within the Bible but is a man-made concept. People can do their own research. It is there to be found.
    that is some good research you have done. i agree with your persuasive conclusions.
    From the forum rules: "The definition of a derogatory term is one that insults, belittles or treats a group or individual with contempt. "

    "If you have to resort to making fun of people and their ideas, you have nothing valuable to contribute here."

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