no need to restore the truth

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

and making your font larger does nothing to change what the scriptures say.

.

Being a lot more on top of what the Bible says make my posts true....
The large print just makes them easy for my eyes to read.


One of the main criticisms I have with people who on forums like this is that they tend to post in a style that is hard to read and follow along.

I try to post in a style that is easy for me to read.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Being a lot more on top of what the Bible says make my posts true....
The large print just makes them easy for my eyes to read.


One of the main criticisms I have with people who on forums like this is that they tend to post in a style that is hard to read and follow along.

I try to post in a style that is easy for me to read.

"Being a lot more on top of the Bible"? That is how you back your beliefs?

I have given you scripture after scripture that points to Christ being in the image of His Father (not just spiritually). You decide that one verse is concrete and then decide that all the others are merely metaphorical to make your point.

Then I give you history regarding your beliefs and that they are not Bionically determined, but man-made.

And all you have to say it that you are "a lot more on top of what the Bible says"? I don't see it. I suppose this is how the Pharisees justified crucifying Christ---I am sure they saw themselves as a lot more on top of the scriptures.

[alanmolstad]

You seem kinda upset...
Perhaps you should try talking to someone else for a bit...

[alanmolstad]

So to review....


God is spirit,
always was, always will be,pure spirit.
This is why God is called the "invisible God" for spirits are invisible,,always were, always will be....for God never changes.


The Word was God...
So the Word is God, and that means the Word is spirit, for we have already learned that "God is spirit".

The Word became flesh
So the Word that is and will always be pure spirit,became flesh.
God the Son took upon Himself a 2nd nature.
The Son never stopped being just like God the father in his nature, in that God is always spirit.
But this 2nd nature is the nature of a man..
So the Word became flesh, became human.
The word "became" means it first was not, then it was later...(In other words, it "became")

Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
Jesus is human...and we can see humans!
So while Jesus is always God, and as God is always invisible spirt, Jesus is also totally human too!
Thats why we can say of Jesus, that he is the "Image of the invisible God"...For in him was the fullness of what God is...yet due to this 2nd natire of being human we also can see Jesus.


A spirit does not have flesh and bone .
This means that God does not have flesh and bone, for as we learned at the start, "God is spirit"

So when Jesus said to his men, "A spirit does not have flesh and bone" who was he actually including in this teaching?....


That's right, the Father!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So to review....


God is spirit,
always was, always will be,pure spirit.
This is why God is called the "invisible God" for spirits are invisible,,always were, always will be....for God never changes.


The Word was God...
So the Word is God, and that means the Word is spirit, for we have already learned that "God is spirit".

The Word became flesh
So the Word that is and will always be pure spirit,became flesh.
God the Son took upon Himself a 2nd nature.
The Son never stopped being just like God the father in his nature, in that God is always spirit.
But this 2nd nature is the nature of a man..
So the Word became flesh, became human.
The word "became" means it first was not, then it was later...(In other words, it "became")

Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
Jesus is human...and we can see humans!
So while Jesus is always God, and as God is always invisible spirt, Jesus is also totally human too!
Thats why we can say of Jesus, that he is the "Image of the invisible God"...For in him was the fullness of what God is...yet due to this 2nd natire of being human we also can see Jesus.


A spirit does not have flesh and bone .
This means that God does not have flesh and bone, for as we learned at the start, "God is spirit"

So when Jesus said to his men, "A spirit does not have flesh and bone" who was he actually including in this teaching?....


That's right, the Father!

And absolutely no scriptures to back it except one, really You like reading up on history. Read up on the history of the trilogy. You will find you really have nothing to stand on here.

And you know the beauty of it is? As I read up on John 1:1, I find that when read in Greek, you don't have that one right either. I had really no idea of how flimsy your belief system about this really is. Clearly, you have done far more research on my religion then on your own.

[alanmolstad]

God is SPIRIT !


always was, always will be,pure spirit.
This is why God is called the "invisible God" for spirits are invisible,,always were, always will be....for God never changes.


The Word was God...
So the Word is God, and that means the Word is spirit, for we have already learned that "God is spirit".

The Word became flesh
So the Word that is and will always be pure spirit,became flesh.
God the Son took upon Himself a 2nd nature.
The Son never stopped being just like God the father in his nature, in that God is always spirit.
But this 2nd nature is the nature of a man..


So the Word became flesh, became human.
The word "became" means it first was not, then it was later...(In other words, it "became")

Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
Jesus is human...and we can see humans!
So while Jesus is always God, and as God is always invisible spirt, Jesus is also totally human too!
Thats why we can say of Jesus, that he is the "Image of the invisible God"...For in him was the fullness of what God is...yet due to this 2nd nature of being human we also can see Jesus.


A spirit does not have flesh and bone .
This means that God does not have flesh and bone, for as we learned at the start, "God is spirit"

So when Jesus said to his men, "A spirit does not have flesh and bone" who was he actually including in this teaching?....


That's right, the Father!






I was just noticing that not only do I fill my posts with listings of the scriptures that support my views,I actually quote scripture greatly in my posts!
In fact, if you color the parts of my posts to show what comes directly from the Scripture, you dont really have much left that is not taken directly from the Bible...[/B]

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

God is SPIRIT !


always was, always will be,pure spirit.
This is why God is called the "invisible God" for spirits are invisible,,always were, always will be....for God never changes.


The Word was God...
So the Word is God, and that means the Word is spirit, for we have already learned that "God is spirit".

The Word became flesh
So the Word that is and will always be pure spirit,became flesh.
God the Son took upon Himself a 2nd nature.
The Son never stopped being just like God the father in his nature, in that God is always spirit.
But this 2nd nature is the nature of a man..


So the Word became flesh, became human.
The word "became" means it first was not, then it was later...(In other words, it "became")

Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
Jesus is human...and we can see humans!
So while Jesus is always God, and as God is always invisible spirt, Jesus is also totally human too!
Thats why we can say of Jesus, that he is the "Image of the invisible God"...For in him was the fullness of what God is...yet due to this 2nd nature of being human we also can see Jesus.


A spirit does not have flesh and bone .
This means that God does not have flesh and bone, for as we learned at the start, "God is spirit"

So when Jesus said to his men, "A spirit does not have flesh and bone" who was he actually including in this teaching?....


That's right, the Father!






I was just noticing that not only do I fill my posts with listings of the scriptures that support my views,I actually quote scripture greatly in my posts!
In fact, if you color the parts of my posts to show what comes directly from the Scripture, you dont really have much left that is not taken directly from the Bible...[/B]

You seem to think that making your font bigger or putting it in red will make it read differently.

In order to come up with your trilogy definition, you have to ignore all other teachings of Christ.

As I stated before, there is no reason to take these teachings metaphorically as you do.

Is God the Father invisible to Christ? After learning that we are made in the image of God, we have this verse And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. (Genesis 5:22). Is this a metaphor to you again?

And even in John 1:1. We have the Word was God and the Word was WITH God. Once again, no reason to believe that Christ does not see the "invisible God".

Then we have "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." John 5:19.

So, once again, another reason to believe that one can walk with God, see God, and sit on the right hand of God.

But the biggest argument is that Christ has a body of flesh and bones. That alone should be enough to teach you the God CAN have a body of flesh and bones. Because John 1:1 says and the Word was God! In other words, right there, you know that Jesus Christ (God) has a body of flesh and bones.

Then to top it off, we learn that Christ is the express image of God.

What more can Christ do to teach you that to see him is to see the Father? Why do you have to keep arguing against His own words? Why do you insist everything be a metaphor that does not support your position? Especially in light that history shows us that the notion of the trinity is not based on Biblical teachings, but was a minority vote?

[BigJulie]

To answer your question, what was Christ teaching the disciples? He was teaching them to understand what resurrection means. He was teaching them what exalted means. He was teaching them what to be glorified and perfected means. He was glorifying his Father (making it clear to them who his Father is and who He is that they may we may be one with them!)

Jhn 17 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was...

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

It doesn't get much clearer than that (and Christ word's should once again make you recognize that your man-made trinity is incorrect.)

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You seem to think that making your font bigger or putting it in red will make it read differently.

Ah yes, that's the point.

When I write my posts I want them to be easy for me to read later.
In that way I do try to make the words appear to me to be more clear, I try to make the sentences in sections around the same idea,,,(paragraphs).

I also try to use space between main points so as to make it more easy for me to find something later.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Ah yes, that's the point.

When I write my posts I want them to be easy for me to read later.
In that way I do try to make the words appear to me to be more clear, I try to make the sentences in sections around the same idea,,,(paragraphs).

I also try to use space between main points so as to make it more easy for me to find something later.

Not sure why you have to have the big red font. It comes across as screaming. So does bold font.

That said, here is an interesting paragraph I found while researching the differences between Hebrew and Greek:

Greek thought refers to the writings of Plato and Aristotle as well as their intellectual heirs the Gnostic heretics. From Greek thought we have the whole dualistic heresies that try to pit everything into black/white or either/or thinking rather than recognizing the fuller balance. Greek thinking pits the physical against the spiritual, leading either to asceticism where the tainted and dirty physical is punished while the enlightened spiritual is developed or to hedonism, where the corruption of one’s physical body through promiscuity or gluttony is unimportant because it is only the mind and spirit and not the body that matter anyway. In Hebrew thought, the body, heart, mind, and spirit are all an interconnected whole, none of which can be neglected.

Everything I research regarding the making of the trinity to understanding Hebrew and Greek, point to the fact that there is no basis for you to not believe the words of Christ when he prayed prior to his atonement or when He taught us that to see Him is to see the Father.

Everything points to knowing that any argument we make regarding the nature of Christ can be applied to the Father.

Everything points to understanding that it would be redundant to have the Holy Ghost if God is a spirit only.

Everything points to that Spirits can have bodies and while our spirits are invisible, our bodies can be seen, and that Christ has seen the Father.

Everything points to the fact that we are made in the image of God.

John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

(There you go, the big red bold font.)

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Not sure why you have to have the big red font. It comes across as screaming. So does bold font.

Oh I never expected others to like my posts.....

I write for myself...

And so far, I like my posts the way they are.

[alanmolstad]

"God is spirit"
"a spirit does not have flesh and BONE..."





Shall I go over that again?...

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"God is spirit"
"a spirit does not have flesh and BONE..."





Shall I go over that again?...

And shall I go over it again? You have to take this scripture concretely and then take the rest of Christ's teaching metaphorically to stick with this belief.

But because Christ has a spirit, do you also ***ume he does not have a body?

For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, Phil 1:19.

Why do you ignore the other teachings of Christ for a Greek influence rendition of God created a few hundred years after Christ? When it is so clear that Christ came to teach us who the Father is by example, why are you so bent on one scripture to ignore all others?

Clearly, we are made in the image of God.

Clearly, Christ glorified the Father so we can understand who He is.

Clearly, when we meet God, we will find we are like him.

I'll tell you what. Why not repeat to me again that God is Spirit--make it in bold, and ignore all other scriptures. Ignore the history of the trinity. Ignore the influence of Greek though. Ignore Christ's words.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"God is spirit"
"a spirit does not have flesh and BONE..."





Shall I go over that again?...

the word "became" flesh.....


The word was not always flesh and bone...rather the Word "became" something it was not beforehand.



So to review-

God is spirit.
A spirit does not have flesh and bone.
The Word was God
The Word "became" flesh...

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the word "became" flesh.....


The word was not always flesh and bone...rather the Word "became" something it was not beforehand.



So to review-

God is spirit.
A spirit does not have flesh and bone.
The Word was God
The Word "became" flesh...

Yes, the Word became flesh--took on flesh and bones and then died and was resurrected into a glorified, resurrected body with flesh and bones who was exalted and sat on the right hand of God. And what does Christ teach us? That he does nothing that he does not see the Father do. He also teaches us that to see Him is to see the Father? When He came in his resurrected glorified body, do you think he didn't mean his words? Why keep his body?

Do you know that in the ten commandments, there is a word taken out from the Hebrew when saying that there should be no older gods before me---do you know how it really reads? It reads, thou shalt have no other gods before my face. Look it up.

One other thought--do you realize we are 200 years past the writing of the cons***ution. How has politics affected it? Yet the trinity was a political decision more than 300 years after Christ. Why do you cling to making so many scriptures metaphorical to make this one scripture concrete? If I was to read the New Testament according to Alan (or the trinity), it would be that this scripture "God is Spirit" is the only one to believe Christ. All of Christ's other words and example, just toss.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, the Word became flesh--took on flesh and bones .

Thats all the Bible is saying...

That God is spirit....
and knowing that a spirit does not have flesh and bones we understand that God does not have flesh and bones.

Then the Word "became"flesh....

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Thats all the Bible is saying...

That God is spirit....
and knowing that a spirit does not have flesh and bones we understand that God does not have flesh and bones.

Then the Word "became"flesh....

Okay, let me try this another way since you seem so caught on this scripture as to ignore all others.

Do you have a spirit?

If you did not have a spirit, would your body have life?

When people get to know you, how do they know you?

What if they could only talk to you on the phone and could not see you, how would they know you? By your body or by your spirit?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Do you have a spirit?

"Let us make man in our own image"

"God is spirit"

"a spirit does not have flesh and bones"


(it's a connected, just follow the dots...)

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

"Let us make man in our own image"

"God is spirit"

"a spirit does not have flesh and bones"


(it's a connected, just follow the dots...)

Keep holding onto that belief Alan. Ignore all the other scriptures. Jesus Christ has flesh and bones. Jesus Christ is God. That should be enough to let you know your interpretation is wrong.

And certainly ignore the fact that your concept of God is man-made created 300+ years after the death of Christ. It is the equivalent of repeating the line in the Cons***ution "we have a right to bear arms" and insisting that it means only the government-military because some group 300 years later came up with that definition and exiled or killed anyone who did not agree.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Jesus Christ has flesh and bones. Jesus Christ is God.

YES!!!!


"and the Word BECAME flesh..."



Jesus has 2 natures.
The first nature is the nature of God, and God is spirit.
The 2nd nature is something that Jesus "became"....for the Word became flesh.

The Word was not always flesh...

The Word became flesh means it once was not flesh,then later it was flesh...

But the Word never stopped being spirit too...

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

YES!!!!


"and the Word BECAME flesh..."



Jesus has 2 natures.
The first nature is the nature of God, and God is spirit.
The 2nd nature is something that Jesus "became"....for the Word became flesh.

The Word was not always flesh...

The Word became flesh means it once was not flesh,then later it was flesh...

But the Word never stopped being spirit too...

Okay, so the Word NEVER stopped being spirit too! That is great. You are starting to get the Jesus Christ can be God, have flesh AND be a spirit too.

So, let's take a look at your conclusions:

If this is true: "Let us make man in our own image"

and this is true: "God is spirit"

and this is true"a spirit does not have flesh and bones"


And this is true: "the Word became flesh"

And this is true: Jesus Christ has a resurrected body of flesh and bones

Then (to interpret "God is Spirit" the way you do):

The only conclusion one can make from your interpretation is , Jesus Christ is NOT God (or he stopped being spirit too)

And that you must believe that Jesus Christ is not in the image of God.

But, we know that:

This is true: Jesus Christ is the express image of God

and this is true: Jesus Christ is God

Then the only conclusion one can make is that your statement "a spirit does not have a body of flesh of bones" has to be incorrect. As even you state Christ is a Spirit too!!

[BigJulie]

Can I say Alan, typing up all these different colors and fonts is time consuming. I am surprised at the lengths you will go to stick with your belief that Jesus Christ is NOT the same as God the Father--that they are different and that you cannot really KNOW the Father--even after everything Jesus Christ has done so that you can know the Father.

[alanmolstad]

again....

Christ has two totally different natures.
this is why he is called in the church the "God/Man"

For Jesus is both God and Man in completeness.


The Scriptures teach this as I have shown.



God is spirit.
and as Christ has taught, "a spirit does not have flesh and bones"


But who has a body of flesh and bones?....
a resurrected Human!




Did the Word always have a body of flesh?.....

no,


What single word proves that the Word did not have a body before the incarnation?

"became"


We learn that Jesus did not always have a body of flesh when it says the Word "became flesh".
By telling us the Word became flesh we are also shown that in order for something to "become" another thing it had to once not be it, then later became it.




The Word was God, and God is a spirit.....So no body of flesh.

Then the Word "became" flesh, and that is the moment when the Word starting having a body of flesh.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

again....

Christ has two totally different natures.
this is why he is called in the church the "God/Man"

For Jesus is both God and Man in completeness.


The Scriptures teach this as I have shown.



God is spirit.
and as Christ has taught, "a spirit does not have flesh and bones"


But who has a body of flesh and bones?....
a resurrected Human!




Did the Word always have a body of flesh?.....

no,


What single word proves that the Word did not have a body before the incarnation?

"became"


We learn that Jesus did not always have a body of flesh when it says the Word "became flesh".
By telling us the Word became flesh we are also shown that in order for something to "become" another thing it had to once not be it, then later became it.




The Word was God, and God is a spirit.....So no body of flesh.

Then the Word "became" flesh, and that is the moment when the Word starting having a body of flesh.

Except to believe your interpretation, you must ignore that God created man in his image and likeness and ignore after Christ's death and resurrection that we are told he is the express image of the Father.

I get that Christ was spirit first, than man, then resurrected. But I also understand that we are created in God's image and that Christ is currently the express image of God.

You yourself acknowledge that Christ can have a body and still be a spirit. That's my point.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Except to believe your interpretation, you must ignore that God created man in his image and likeness and ignore after Christ's death and resurrection that we are told he is the express image of the Father.

I get that Christ was spirit first, than man, then resurrected. But I also understand that we are created in God's image and that Christ is currently the express image of God.

You yourself acknowledge that Christ can have a body and still be a spirit. That's my point.

Why do Trinitarians believe such junk?