no need to restore the truth

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Except to believe your interpretation, you must ignore that God created man in his image and likeness

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,

John 4:24 God is spirit,

Genesis 3:19 until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."



Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



So while our Spirit is truly made in the image of God, it yet is very true in the Bible that our bodies are not made in the image of God at all,

God is spirit,and a spirit does not have flesh and bone.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness,

John 4:24 God is spirit,

Genesis 3:19 until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."



Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



So while our Spirit is truly made in the image of God, it yet is very true in the Bible that our bodies are not made in the image of God at all,

God is spirit,and a spirit does not have flesh and bone.

And if you only believed in the Old Testament, then I can see why you would believe this. But Adam's body will not remain in the ground, but will be resurrected just as Christ is.

In other words, being a spirit does not preclude one from also having a body. This is why we can be made in God's image and why Christ can be the express image of God even in his resurrected state.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And if you only believed in the Old Testament, then I can see why you would believe this. .

lets put a pin in that sentence for now,and get back to it later....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

..... But Adam's body will not remain in the ground, but will be resurrected just as Christ is.

In other words, being a spirit does not preclude one from also having a body. ......

I think we have two totally different agendas working here.

My agenda is to just quote the Bible.
And the Bible says the following.

The Bible says that God is spirit and does not change.
The Bible also says that a spirit does not have flesh and bone.
The Bible also tells us that because God is a spirit, he is invisible.

So that is what the Bible tells us about God, that He is a spirit,and is invisible, and that will never change.


The Bible tells us about Christ the following things-

Christ is called"The Word: and the Word is God, and therefore the Word is also spirit and therefore invisible and that will never change.
The Bible also tells us that the Word became man.

So there are two totally different natures going on at the same time in the person of Jesus.
Thus, while Jesus is God, and therefore spirit and invisible and that will never change, yet he also "Became" human, and can so now be seen.



That is my agenda....and your agenda is different because when I say the above facts the Bible teaches, you view them as an attack on the first visions that Mormon founder Smith had.

This is why you go on and on looking for ways around the facts found in the Bible verses I list.
Simply put, you see my Bible verses as an attack against Smith, even though I have not talked about Smith,and I dont think I have much brought up Smith's vision of the father having a body at all.




So while Im not really interested right now in talking about Smith's stories, you are however correct in understanding that Smith's vision is in fact at odds with Bible teachings Im quoting...

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

[B]
I think we have two totally different agendas working here.

My agenda is to just quote the Bible.
And the Bible says the following.

The Bible says that God is spirit and does not change.

These are two separate scriptures you are putting together to fit your agenda.

The Bible also says that a spirit does not have flesh and bone.

Interpreting a scripture to make it fit your agenda. You have a spirit, do you have flesh and bones?

The Bible also tells us that because God is a spirit, he is invisible

.Once again, putting two separate scriptures together to fit your agenda.

So that is what the Bible tells us about God, that He is a spirit,and is invisible, and that will never change.

Once again, putting it together in such a way to fit your own agenda. To me, if your definition of God does not fit Jesus Christ, then you definition is wrong.

The Bible tells us about Christ the following things-

Christ is called"The Word: and the Word is God, and therefore the Word is also spirit and therefore invisible and that will never change.
The Bible also tells us that the Word became man.

And there you just contradicted yourself. You state that God just changed. He BECAME a man. You are the one who is stuck on the becoming part.

So there are two totally different natures going on at the same time in the person of Jesus.

Who says that having "flesh" is a nature? If you did not have a spirit, would your flesh have a nature of its own? It can't live without the spirit. It would be dead.

Thus, while Jesus is God, and therefore spirit and invisible and that will never change, yet he also "Became" human, and can so now be seen.

Actually, his nature is something that is not either spirit or body. It is who he is--what makes Him God. Oh, that's right--you believe that what God makes who you are, right? He either designs you to be saved or ****ed.

I don't agree. I believe we each have a nature that is who we are. It is not the spirit God made, nor our bodies he made. It is who we are. It is this nature that needs to be saved and perfected-which is done through the atonement of Christ if we follow him.

That is my agenda....and your agenda is different because when I say the above facts the Bible teaches, you view them as an attack on the first visions that Mormon founder Smith had.

No, the Bible says no such thing. We don't even need to talk about Joseph Smith as you taking some things taught in the Bible, ignoring others, putting scriptures together to come up with your own agenda. This is why when I read the history of the trinity and other web-sites it is so easy to find that the trinity is not backed in the Bible.

So while Im not really interested right now in talking about Smith's stories, you are however correct in understanding that Smith's vision is in fact at odds with Bible teachings Im quoting...

Actually, the more I study the Bible and the more I study the history of the trinity, I can see why it is so important to attack Joseph Smith--he was the one who dared to say that the emperor had no clothes.

[alanmolstad]

well,,,if there is anything I have written you want me to address,,,just ask,,,,

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

.....Joseph Smith--he was the one who dared to say that the emperor had no clothes.

I dont know much about the Emperor's clothes, but I do know Smith was always interested in talking young girls out of theirs...

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I dont know much about the Emperor's clothes, but I do know Smith was always interested in talking young girls out of theirs...

Your response is getting predictable

I am beginning to understand that you must attack Joseph Smith because your doctrinal stance is not backed by scriptures.

Your only argument, over and over again, is that Jesus Christ is NOT the same as the Father. You have gone to great lengths and scripture splicing to make this point.

Yet, the end testimony that I have is that the Bible does in fact back that we are created in the image of God, that Jesus Christ the express image of the Father and that to know Christ is to know the Father. Christ's mission was to allow us to see the Father so that we can be one with Him as Christ is with Him. You can argue all you want that Christ in unlike the Father, but the scriptures say otherwise.

[alanmolstad]

Christ is the same nature as the father....

Both are the One God...


and the Bible teaches us that God is spirit,and invisible, and does not change...

So what the Father is in his nature,the Son is,for they are equal in nature.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Christ is the same nature as the father....

Both are the One God...


and the Bible teaches us that God is spirit,and invisible, and does not change...

So what the Father is in his nature,the Son is,for they are equal in nature.

Except then you go to ignore the New Testament and Christ, birth, death and resurrection---claiming that his glorified, resurrected and exalted state is different than God the Father even though we learn that Christ tells us that he does nothing he does not see the Father do and are told that Christ is the express image of the Father.

If truly, both are one, you would not spend so much time arguing that God is unlike Christ.

I think the whole reason we began discussing this is because you believe I cannot receive answers to my prayers because I am praying to the wrong God.

Here is my take on it:

#1. God is more powerful and more loving than that. He will answer anyone who seeks truth and lead them to Christ.

#2. There are enough scriptures in the Bible alone for me to contradict your description of God (as unlike anything we have ever seen). Jesus Christ spends his ministry so that we can KNOW His Father.

#3. Taking a look back into history, there is enough understanding of what happened to create the idea of the trinity to know that it is not based on Bible scripture. There is also enough history to understand that it was decided by a minority and anyone who did not agree with it was either executed or exiled.

You cling to your own false beliefs based on tradition and then do your best to attack the messenger who teaches otherwise. This is not unlike during Christ's time. If those religious traditionalists would attack and kill the perfect Christ and his apostles, why should you do anything less with an imperfect prophet? Joseph Smith was told by an angel that his name "should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues." By your attacks, almost 200 years later, you are living proof of this prophecy.

[alanmolstad]

the Son is "fully God almighty"

there.... that ends your issue with any difference between the Son and the father.
For in his nature as God, there is no difference.


WalterMartin used to teach that in the GREEK, the words are at John 1;1...."What God was, the Word was"





But the Son has a body Alan!!!!?

Yes,that is why the bible says the Word "BECAME" flesh!

The Word was NOT flesh before....then it "BECAME" flesh after.
It was always spirit however as it is God, and as we know from the Scriptures, "God is spirit"


So in his nature as God, the Son is totally equal with the father. What the Father is, so is the Son.

But when the Word "BECAME" man, the Word gained a 2nd nature that the father does not have.
The father does not have a 2nd nature.


So the Son and the Father are totally the same in the nature as God.
and with this the Son also has a 2nd nature as a man.....that he gained when the Word "BECAME" flesh.







To review.
In their nature as God, the Son and the Father are the same nature..they are equally God ...

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the Son is "fully God almighty"

there.... that ends your issue with any difference between the Son and the father.
For in his nature as God, there is no difference.


WalterMartin used to teach that in the GREEK, the words are at John 1;1...."What God was, the Word was"





But the Son has a body Alan!!!!?

Yes,that is why the bible says the Word "BECAME" flesh!

The Word was NOT flesh before....then it "BECAME" flesh after.
It was always spirit however as it is God, and as we know from the Scriptures, "God is spirit"


So in his nature as God, the Son is totally equal with the father. What the Father is, so is the Son.

But when the Word "BECAME" man, the Word gained a 2nd nature that the father does not have.
The father does not have a 2nd nature.


So the Son and the Father are totally the same in the nature as God.
and with this the Son also has a 2nd nature as a man.....that he gained when the Word "BECAME" flesh.







To review.
In their nature as God, the Son and the Father are the same nature..they are equally God ...

And there you go again. You just can't speak of the Father and the Son without going on about their differences. You keep saying they are the same....but.

And then you completely ignore that the Son became glorified, resurrected, and exalted and sits on the right hand of the Father. I know you think this is only a metaphor, but there is a way to see both scriptures as true without being only metaphors. (Or so many other scriptures that you write-off as metaphors that don't agree with your interpretation of one scripture.)

Think of it, if you can recognize that your interpretation is completely incorrect and that "God is Spirit" is much like you are your spirit and without your spirit, your flesh is dead--it makes it so all of the other things we learn both in the Old Testament and the New Testament fall into place. And if you go on to just another chapter or two in John, wow--here is the explanation--(so you don't even have to guess what Christ is saying, he explains it more fully.)

John 6 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (Okay, God is NOT invisible to Christ--you agree with this, right?)

Jhn 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." (This is also found in John.)

So, now in John we find both "God is spirit" and "the words I speak unto you are spirit." Now, would you then equate that God must be only words? Of course not. You know he is more than just words because you understand that words alone have no ability to save or give life.

Now, you have more than ample scriptural evidence that you should not take God is spirit out of context and use it as an excuse to NOT believe Christ is speaking the truth fully (believing he only is speaking in metaphors.) In fact, when Christ says "God is spirit' he is speaking to the woman at the well of living water. Hence, right then--he is using a metaphor to explain who the Father and He is to her (living water.) He then explains to her that soon, worshiping the Father will not occur on the mountain or in Jerusalem, but will be done in spirit. Why? Because Jerusalem is going to be destroyed. Those who follow Christ are going to be destroyed. It is historical fact that this occurred. He also teaches the deeper lesson that even though these places will be destroyed, it is okay because God the Father wants us to worship in personally, via our spirits.

"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

And there you go again. You just can't speak of the Father and the Son without going on about their differences. You keep saying they are the same....but.

And then you completely ignore that the Son became......."

That's right,in my post I never once used the word "became".......how did I miss that?...





So to review what the Bible is teaching us:

God is Spirit, God is invisible , and God does not change.

The Word is God.
so the Word is Spirit, the Word is invisible, and the Word does not change.


That what the God is, the word is also.


And for our salvation , the Word became flesh.

The Word never stopped being God.

The Word never stopped being invisible

The Word never stopeing being unchanged.


But with the birth of the Christ child, we see that the Word had now also the 2nd nature of a human as well.


So the Word remained unchanged in his nature as the one eternal God, for God is always God, and therefore always invisible, and unchanged,etc.
But within this 2nd nature of a man, the Word has became flesh....


The word "became" means it was not flesh before, but then later it became this flesh.

The Word became flesh.
The Word became a man
The Word became a child
The Word became a teenager
The Word became a carpenter
The Word became a preacher
The word became the sacrificial lamb and took onto himself the sins of all men
The Word became dead
The Word became dead for 3days
The Word became resurrected.
The Word became resurrected in a body of flesh and bone.

So,,,,,the key words in the beginning of the book of John is this word "became: for it teaches us that the Word was not all these things at first...but that later it became all these things.


and yet, all the time that it was becoming all these things, the nature the word has with the Father as God Almighty, was unchanged.....unaffected....and as always invisible.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

That's right,in my post I never once used the word "became".......how did I miss that?...





So to review what the Bible is teaching us:

God is Spirit, God is invisible , and God does not change.

The Word is God.
so the Word is Spirit, the Word is invisible, and the Word does not change.


That what the God is, the word is also.


And for our salvation , the Word became flesh.

The Word never stopped being God.

The Word never stopped being invisible

The Word never stopeing being unchanged.


But with the birth of the Christ child, we see that the Word had now also the 2nd nature of a human as well.


So the Word remained unchanged in his nature as the one eternal God, for God is always God, and therefore always invisible, and unchanged,etc.
But within this 2nd nature of a man, the Word has became flesh....


The word "became" means it was not flesh before, but then later it became this flesh.

The Word became flesh.
The Word became a man
The Word became a child
The Word became a teenager
The Word became a carpenter
The Word became a preacher
The word became the sacrificial lamb and took onto himself the sins of all men
The Word became dead
The Word became dead for 3days
The Word became resurrected.
The Word became resurrected in a body of flesh and bone.

So,,,,,the key words in the beginning of the book of John is this word "became: for it teaches us that the Word was not all these things at first...but that later it became all these things.


and yet, all the time that it was becoming all these things, the nature the word has with the Father as God Almighty, was unchanged.....unaffected....and as always invisible.

I will acknowledge that Jesus Christ became flesh and now retains that flesh in a glorified, resurrected state and now sits on the right hand of the Father.


Let's see if you can just answer 3 simple questions.

1. Is God the Father invisible to Christ or does Christ see the Father?

2. When Christ says the words that I speak are spirit and give life, how do you interpret that?

3. As the Father wants us to worship him in spirit, what does that mean to you?

(It will be interesting to see if you acknowledge my questions or will ignore it to just take my first sentence to respond to and ignore the rest as this seems to be your pattern with the scriptures.)

Oh, and can you please explain this "the Word never stopped being invisible?"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I will acknowledge that Jesus Christ became flesh .....

The Word became flesh....the Father never did.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The Word became flesh....the Father never did.

Amazing you are becoming so predictable.

From my last post:

(It will be interesting to see if you acknowledge my questions or will ignore it to just take my first sentence to respond to and ignore the rest as this seems to be your pattern with the scriptures.)

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Amazing you are becoming so predictable.

From my last post:

The predictable part of my answers are that they are always based on the Text, and that if the text has no clear verse on a matter I try not to guess....

I dont just fling out personal opinions, rather if the Bible speaks then I do, if the Bible does not address a question then I try not to just guess based only on my personal views..


What does the Bible say or not say?-

The bible tells us that God is spirit, that He is invisible, that he never changes.
The Bible tells us also that the WORD is God as well.

Thus the Word is spirit, the Word is invisible, the Word never changes.

So when we say that the "Word became flesh" we cant mean that the Word stopped being God, (or that the Word was in the slightest way different than the father),for that would go against the idea that we already learned about God, in that He is spirit, invisible, and never changes.

But the Word truly did come in the flesh, that flesh of a man...

This 2nd nature of the Word is truly human...



Now there are tons and tons of questions a person might want top ask the Text about how the Word could be both God almighty, and human at the same time?...and the truth is, the bible does not inform us too much of how that worked out.

We only know that this is what the bible teaches,,,it does not teach us how it worked.
The bible does not teach us how a little baby could be the eternal God?
The Bible does not tell us how the Lord God almighty, could have to learn things from his parents?
The bible does not tell us how the most powerful in the universe, could submit to the authority of his parents?



.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The predictable part of my answers are that they are always based on the Text, and that if the text has no clear verse on a matter I try not to guess....

I dont just fling out personal opinions, rather if the Bible speaks then I do, if the Bible does not address a question then I try not to just guess based only on my personal views..


What does the Bible say or not say?-

The bible tells us that God is spirit, that He is invisible, that he never changes.
The Bible tells us also that the WORD is God as well.

Thus the Word is spirit, the Word is invisible, the Word never changes.

So when we say that the "Word became flesh" we cant mean that the Word stopped being God, (or that the Word was in the slightest way different than the father),for that would go against the idea that we already learned about God, in that He is spirit, invisible, and never changes.

But the Word truly did come in the flesh, that flesh of a man...

This 2nd nature of the Word is truly human...



Now there are tons and tons of questions a person might want top ask the Text about how the Word could be both God almighty, and human at the same time?...and the truth is, the bible does not inform us too much of how that worked out.

We only know that this is what the bible teaches,,,it does not teach us how it worked.
The bible does not teach us how a little baby could be the eternal God?
The Bible does not tell us how the Lord God almighty, could have to learn things from his parents?
The bible does not tell us how the most powerful in the universe, could submit to the authority of his parents?



.

But you are ignoring verses in which Christ teaches "God is Spirit" and in order for you to take it out of context, you must make so many other versus strictly metaphorical. And listen to your ramblings now, they are getting more and more nonsensical.

Wow, now I understand what Christ meant when he said "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Mat 13:15

[Christian]

Julie posted:

But you are ignoring verses in which Christ teaches "God is Spirit" and in order for you to take it out of context, you must make so many other versus strictly metaphorical. And listen to your ramblings now, they are getting more and more nonsensical.

You mean like the verses that say Jesus is the vine? Jesus is the door?

Do you take THOSE p***ages literally? Or ARE they metaphorical? DO His 'wings' do anything? DOES he have leaves and blossoms?

Wow, now I understand what Christ meant when he said "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Mat 13:15

Looking in a mirror, are you? That IS how you look to those of us who read the Bible for what IT says rather than what some relatively new religious sect says it 'musta ment.'

Joey smith has lied to you, kiddo!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

Julie posted:

But you are ignoring verses in which Christ teaches "God is Spirit" and in order for you to take it out of context, you must make so many other versus strictly metaphorical. And listen to your ramblings now, they are getting more and more nonsensical.

You mean like the verses that say Jesus is the vine? Jesus is the door?

Do you take THOSE p***ages literally? Or ARE they metaphorical? DO His 'wings' do anything? DOES he have leaves and blossoms?

Wow, now I understand what Christ meant when he said "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Mat 13:15

Looking in a mirror, are you? That IS how you look to those of us who read the Bible for what IT says rather than what some relatively new religious sect says it 'musta ment.'

Joey smith has lied to you, kiddo!

Yes, exactly--Jesus is the vine or the door--that is definitely a metaphor. So, if you look at God is spirit, you will see that as Christ continues that thought, he does not exclude God having a body. In fact, he is speaking to the woman at the well and explaining to her that if she drinks of this water she will never thirst again. So, he is teaching her in metaphors. Only two chapters later Christ state that his words are spirit and give life.

So, you are making my point for me.

Maybe you are willing to answer the questions that Alan is not:

1. Does Christ see the Father or is He invisible to Christ?

2. When Christ says the words that I speak are spirit and give life, how do you interpret that?

3. As the Father wants us to worship him in spirit, what does that mean to you?

[alanmolstad]

these 3 things are always true.

God is Spirit

God is Invisible

God does not change






Just deal with it people, and forget spending all your life running away from these 3 simple things we know about God...

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

these 3 things are always true.

God is Spirit

God is Invisible

God does not change






Just deal with it people, and forget spending all your life running away from these 3 simple things we know about God...

When did I become "people"? Do you think repeating the same thing over and over makes other scriptures disappear?

If your claims are so simple, just answer me these two questions.

Is God the Father invisible to Christ?

Can people see Christ?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

When did I become "people"? .....

Thats a conversation you need to have with your parents.....

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, exactly--Jesus is the vine or the door--that is definitely a metaphor. So, if you look at God is spirit, you will see that as Christ continues that thought, he does not exclude God having a body. In fact, he is speaking to the woman at the well and explaining to her that if she drinks of this water she will never thirst again. So, he is teaching her in metaphors. Only two chapters later Christ state that his words are spirit and give life.

So, you are making my point for me.

Maybe you are willing to answer the questions that Alan is not:

1. Does Christ see the Father or is He invisible to Christ?

2. When Christ says the words that I speak are spirit and give life, how do you interpret that?

3. As the Father wants us to worship him in spirit, what does that mean to you?

Excellent points...and excellent questions. I wonder why they're not being answered, they are all biblical and refer to specific verses...you think those well versed in the Bible could answer them?? Not being nasty...it's just interesting.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Excellent points...and excellent questions. I wonder why they're not being answered, they are all biblical and refer to specific verses...you think those well versed in the Bible could answer them?? Not being nasty...it's just interesting.

Thanks Mickey. I agree. Because I was told I did not believe in the Biblical God, we began a discussion on how God is described. From there, I cannot get a Biblical discussion. All I can get are a few cherry-picked verses and no discussion of the context of those verses or the discussion of any other verses.