no need to restore the truth

[disciple]

Just a few thoughts. Occasionally in the Scriptures we get a glimpse into Heaven of the Father and the Son. We do know that there was a fellowship between the Father and the Son before the foundation of the world. John 17:5, "And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me and Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was."
We get the same teaching from John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Note especially the words, "and the Word was with God." This simply implies a fellowship enjoyed by the Father and the Son in the beginning and from the beginning.
When Stephen died, he looked up into Heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. This implies that the Father is visible in Heaven and that the Son, likewise, is visible in Heaven. Acts 7:55, "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into Heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God." If the Father were not visible Stephen would not have known Jesus was at His right hand. Also I Corinthians 15:44 says, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
I would say that heavenly or spiritual things are visible in heaven. Just think about all the descriptive pictures in Revelation.

[alanmolstad]

"He will cover you with his feathers,
and under his wings you will find refuge"


There you have it,,,,proof that God is a chicken!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by disciple

Just a few thoughts. Occasionally in the Scriptures we get a glimpse into Heaven of the Father and the Son. We do know that there was a fellowship between the Father and the Son before the foundation of the world. John 17:5, "And now, O Father, glorify Thou Me and Thine own self with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was."
We get the same teaching from John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Note especially the words, "and the Word was with God." This simply implies a fellowship enjoyed by the Father and the Son in the beginning and from the beginning.
When Stephen died, he looked up into Heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God. This implies that the Father is visible in Heaven and that the Son, likewise, is visible in Heaven. Acts 7:55, "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into Heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God." If the Father were not visible Stephen would not have known Jesus was at His right hand. Also I Corinthians 15:44 says, "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
I would say that heavenly or spiritual things are visible in heaven. Just think about all the descriptive pictures in Revelation.

Thank you. I completely agree with everything you said. Therefore, would you agree that when we speak of the "invisible" God, we do so because he is invisible to us?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Thank you. I completely agree with everything you said. Therefore, would you agree that when we speak of the "invisible" God, we do so because he is invisible to us?

Hi Julie,
I believe that as humans we are not able to see things in the spirit realm. God is spirit and we are not equipped to see Him.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi Julie,
I believe that as humans we are not able to see things in the spirit realm. God is spirit and we are not equipped to see Him.

When talking with Alan, he refers to some scriptures as being literal and concrete and others as being metaphorical. How do you determine which ones are literal, which ones are metaphorical, and which ones are both?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

When talking with Alan, he refers to some scriptures as being literal and concrete and others as being metaphorical. How do you determine which ones are literal, which ones are metaphorical, and which ones are both?

Since I can't pretend to be a bible scholar or a theologian, I can't give you an all encomp***ing answer. My understanding is that scripture must be taken in context and we must use the reasoning and guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand God's intended meaning. Some things are easily understood, when Jesus said He is the door in John 10, we know He is not made of wood, we get the meaning but other things are not so easily understood. I guess each instance of scripture that falls into this category must be studied in regard to it's context and to whom it was written. All scripture was not written to us but it was all written for us.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by disciple

Since I can't pretend to be a bible scholar or a theologian, I can't give you an all encomp***ing answer. My understanding is that scripture must be taken in context and we must use the reasoning and guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand God's intended meaning. Some things are easily understood, when Jesus said He is the door in John 10, we know He is not made of wood, we get the meaning but other things are not so easily understood. I guess each instance of scripture that falls into this category must be studied in regard to it's context and to whom it was written. All scripture was not written to us but it was all written for us.

I completely agree--especially in regards to reasoning and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Okay, so let me give you a few verses and see how you interpret them and why?

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Acts 7:55-56 "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Hebrews 1:3-4 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they"

Isa 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

[Christian]

Julie posted:

Originally Posted by disciple [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
Since I can't pretend to be a bible scholar or a theologian, I can't give you an all encomp***ing answer. My understanding is that scripture must be taken in context and we must use the reasoning and guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand God's intended meaning. Some things are easily understood, when Jesus said He is the door in John 10, we know He is not made of wood, we get the meaning but other things are not so easily understood. I guess each instance of scripture that falls into this category must be studied in regard to it's context and to whom it was written. All scripture was not written to us but it was all written for us.

I completely agree--especially in regards to reasoning and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Okay, so let me give you a few verses and see how you interpret them and why?

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

In the Greek there is no article 'a.' It says God is Spirit. . .period. It does NOT say He is flesh or bones, and Jesus said:

Luke 24:39
Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJV


Letting Scripture define Scripture, God is Spirit, and God does not have flesh and bones. (speaking of the FATHER of course)

Acts 7:55-56 "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

With a little more to show the CONTEXT:

Acts 7:54-60
54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
NKJV

Do you think that we will NOT see the separate PERSONS of God when we get to heaven? Or that we won't recognize the Father?

Do you think that God the Father lied when He said HE is the only God (Isaiah 43:10)???


Hebrews 1:3-4 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Is Jesus a liar, or is Jesus speaking of a SPIRITUAL 'sitting down' with God. REMEMBER, Paul said that to be absent from his body was to be present with the Lord. Do you think they were speaking of PHYSICAL bodies, or SPIRITUAL bodies?

Isa 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

Isa 43:10-11
10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
NKJV



UNLESS you would care to call God a liar (claiming He contradicts Himself), THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD EXTANT AND HE DOES NOT KNOW OF ANY OTHERS.

Yet joe smith in pgp abraham 3 claimed he met with other gods, sent three of them to earth to 'organize' the earth, etc.

So smith had to have LIED. The God of the Bible stated JUST THE OPPOSITE of your theories that you could become a god of your own little world, etc etc etc

[Christian]

Julie posted:

Originally Posted by disciple [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
Since I can't pretend to be a bible scholar or a theologian, I can't give you an all encomp***ing answer. My understanding is that scripture must be taken in context and we must use the reasoning and guidance of the Holy Spirit to understand God's intended meaning. Some things are easily understood, when Jesus said He is the door in John 10, we know He is not made of wood, we get the meaning but other things are not so easily understood. I guess each instance of scripture that falls into this category must be studied in regard to it's context and to whom it was written. All scripture was not written to us but it was all written for us.

I completely agree--especially in regards to reasoning and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Okay, so let me give you a few verses and see how you interpret them and why?

(May I join you? Perhaps I could shed a little light for you.)

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

In the Greek there is no article 'a.' It says God is Spirit. . .period. It does NOT say He is flesh or bones, and Jesus said:

Luke 24:39
Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJV


Letting Scripture define Scripture, God is Spirit, and God does not have flesh and bones. (speaking of the FATHER of course)

Acts 7:55-56 "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

With a little more to show the CONTEXT:

Acts 7:54-60
54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
NKJV

Do you think that we will NOT see the separate PERSONS of God when we get to heaven? Or that we won't recognize the Father? Do you think we WON'T 'see more clearly' when we see heaven?

Do you think that God the Father lied when He said HE is the only God (Isaiah 43:10)???


Hebrews 1:3-4 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Is Jesus a liar, or is Jesus speaking of a SPIRITUAL 'sitting down' with God. REMEMBER, Paul said that to be absent from his body was to be present with the Lord. Do you think they were speaking of PHYSICAL bodies, or SPIRITUAL bodies?

Isa 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

Isa 43:10-11
10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
NKJV



UNLESS you would care to call God a liar (claiming He contradicts Himself), THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD EXTANT AND HE DOES NOT KNOW OF ANY OTHERS.

Yet joe smith in pgp abraham 3 claimed he met with other gods, sent three of them to earth to 'organize' the earth, etc.

So smith had to have LIED. The God of the Bible stated JUST THE OPPOSITE of your theories that you could become a god of your own little world, etc etc etc

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

Julie posted:



I completely agree--especially in regards to reasoning and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Okay, so let me give you a few verses and see how you interpret them and why?

(May I join you? Perhaps I could shed a little light for you.)

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

In the Greek there is no article 'a.' It says God is Spirit. . .period. It does NOT say He is flesh or bones, and Jesus said:

Luke 24:39
Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJV


Letting Scripture define Scripture, God is Spirit, and God does not have flesh and bones. (speaking of the FATHER of course)

Acts 7:55-56 "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

With a little more to show the CONTEXT:

Acts 7:54-60
54 When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, 56 and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!"
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; 58 and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60 Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
NKJV

Do you think that we will NOT see the separate PERSONS of God when we get to heaven? Or that we won't recognize the Father? Do you think we WON'T 'see more clearly' when we see heaven?

Do you think that God the Father lied when He said HE is the only God (Isaiah 43:10)???


Hebrews 1:3-4 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Is Jesus a liar, or is Jesus speaking of a SPIRITUAL 'sitting down' with God. REMEMBER, Paul said that to be absent from his body was to be present with the Lord. Do you think they were speaking of PHYSICAL bodies, or SPIRITUAL bodies?

Isa 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

Isa 43:10-11
10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord,
"And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me,
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord,
And besides Me there is no savior.
NKJV



UNLESS you would care to call God a liar (claiming He contradicts Himself), THERE IS ONLY ONE GOD EXTANT AND HE DOES NOT KNOW OF ANY OTHERS.

Yet joe smith in pgp abraham 3 claimed he met with other gods, sent three of them to earth to 'organize' the earth, etc.

So smith had to have LIED. The God of the Bible stated JUST THE OPPOSITE of your theories that you could become a god of your own little world, etc etc etc

Christian, it would be so much easier if you learned how to use the quote icon on the top of the textbox. It looks like a little cartoon bubble.

For your John 4:24, it does not say God is flesh and bones, but it also does not exclude this possibility. The disciples obviously knew two things:

1. God is a spirit.
2. Christ is God.

It would make sense, understanding that they understood what a spirit is and what they understood about who Christ is that they would expect Christ to be a spirit as well. Clearly, Christ was teaching them something new when he let them see he had a body of flesh and bones. Hence, not unlike the disciples learning that the gospel would spread to the Gentiles, the disciples were being taught line upon line and precept on precept.

Hence, just using reason alone, your conclusions do not stand.

For Acts 7:55-56, it appears that your reasoning agrees with me. That there are two persons, and that we will be able to see both.

For Isaiah 44:8--How do you determine if this is metaphor or literal as Isaiah speaks in metaphor? Especially in light of the words " besides Me there is no savior"?? (Surely the Jews at the time used their understanding of Isaiah to stone Stephen. Clearly, he was speaking blasphemy. Or was he? Did the disciples of Christ understand something about God that the Jews did not?)

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

When talking with Alan, he refers to some scriptures as being literal and concrete and others as being metaphorical. How do you determine which ones are literal, which ones are metaphorical, and which ones are both?

The answer is that you do what they did with the teachings of Paul.

You open your Bible up ,read it for yourself, and see if what Im saying is true....

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

When talking with Alan, he refers to some scriptures as being literal and concrete and others as being metaphorical. How do you determine which ones are literal, which ones are metaphorical, and which ones are both?

If you were indwelt by God's Holy Spirit you would know.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Apologette

If you were indwelt by God's Holy Spirit you would know.

So, the Holy Spirit lets you know the difference between what is metaphor and what is literal? That sounds just like a Mormon--we believe we receive answers via the Holy Ghost. Sounds the same to me.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The answer is that you do what they did with the teachings of Paul.

You open your Bible up ,read it for yourself, and see if what Im saying is true....

I did just that, and everything I read, you explain away as a metaphor. I disagree.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I completely agree--especially in regards to reasoning and guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Okay, so let me give you a few verses and see how you interpret them and why?

John 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

Acts 7:55-56 "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Hebrews 1:3-4 "Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they"

Isa 44:8 "Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any."

Hi Julie,
I would like to discuss this and I will take one verse at a time, first John 4:24.

God is Spirit. First of all this is necessary, if God were not a Spirit He could not be perfect, or infinite, or independent, or eternal, or omnipotent, or
omnipresent and He is all those things and more.
As all creatures, we were made by him, so we owe him obedience and reverence; but, to be acceptable to this infinite Spirit, the worship must be of a spiritual nature and that can only be possible if we are born again, only those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit and obey the truth can worship God acceptably.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi Julie,
I would like to discuss this and I will take one verse at a time, first John 4:24.

God is Spirit. First of all this is necessary, if God were not a Spirit He could not be perfect, or infinite, or independent, or eternal, or omnipotent, or
omnipresent and He is all those things and more.

First question: Why not? Why can't he be perfect, infinite, independent, eternal and so forth if he has a body? Wouldn't you also use these terms to describe Jesus Christ?

Second question: If being a spirit is supreme to having a body, why did God--
a. Create a body for Adam and Eve and then place their spirit in them (why not just give them a spirit alone?)
b. Why create a body for Christ?
c. Why resurrect and save this body if it is better to be spirit alone?

As all creatures, we were made by him, so we owe him obedience and reverence; but, to be acceptable to this infinite Spirit, the worship must be of a spiritual nature and that can only be possible if we are born again, only those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit and obey the truth can worship God acceptably.

I agree he owes our respect and reverence. I agree our worship must be spiritual in nature and we must be born again. I agree that we must be purified and sanctified by the Holy Ghost to not just worship God, but also be an acceptable sacrifice to him.

"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness." Malachi 3

[disciple]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;168285]

First question: Why not? Why can't he be perfect, infinite, independent, eternal and so forth if he has a body? Wouldn't you also use these terms to describe Jesus Christ?

Second question: If being a spirit is supreme to having a body, why did God--
a. Create a body for Adam and Eve and then place their spirit in them (why not just give them a spirit alone?)
b. Why create a body for Christ?
c. Why resurrect and save this body if it is better to be spirit alone?




I agree he owes our respect and reverence. I agree our worship must be spiritual in nature and we must be born again. I agree that we must be purified and sanctified by the Holy Ghost to not just worship God, but also be an acceptable sacrifice to him.

"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness." Malachi 3

God is the Creator of all things, the first cause and therefore must be infinite and uncreated. All that is created is necessarily finite and limited. That which is beyond the finite must, by definition, be infinite, and the Bible states that God is beyond creation.
1 Kings 8:27 says, "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you." That which is physical cannot be infinite you cannot add finite parts together until they reach infinity, that is why men can’t become God. God is not composed of matter or any other imaginable substance. He also cannot be measured, He is omnipresent. A physical body can only be in one location.

I don’t know why God decided Adam and Eve should have physical bodies.

Jesus revealed God in human form as part of God's divine plan to offer salvation to all people. He was the one way God has provided to most clearly reveal God to humanity, coming to this world in a human body with its limitations. Yet His supernatural power was also made known, calling people to believe in Him as the Messiah and ultimately proving His claims through His resurrection from the dead.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by disciple

God is the Creator of all things, the first cause and therefore must be infinite and uncreated. All that is created is necessarily finite and limited. That which is beyond the finite must, by definition, be infinite, and the Bible states that God is beyond creation.

I've never agreed with the idea of "first cause" because it puts God on a timeline. IE--what was God doing before he "first caused" anything?

1 Kings 8:27 says, "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you." That which is physical cannot be infinite you cannot add finite parts together until they reach infinity, that is why men can’t become God. God is not composed of matter or any other imaginable substance. He also cannot be measured, He is omnipresent. A physical body can only be in one location

. This is a prayer being offered regarding the promise the God has made to Israel and asking God to dwell in the temple that Solomon created--but it is acknowledged that a temple can't contain him. It doesn't speak to the "size" of God, but that God is free to be anywhere he wants--but then goes on to ask the favor that he dwell there with them.

I don’t know why God decided Adam and Eve should have physical bodies.

I understand that--especially in light that you believe the spirit is supreme. Certainly, God had the capability to form only spirits as he formed both spirits and bodies. I think this is one question most evangelicals never ask themselves--whey go to the effort to build the earth, create bodies for us and then save it all?

Jesus revealed God in human form as part of God's divine plan to offer salvation to all people. He was the one way God has provided to most clearly reveal God to humanity, coming to this world in a human body with its limitations. Yet His supernatural power was also made known, calling people to believe in Him as the Messiah and ultimately proving His claims through His resurrection from the dead.

Yes, but provide salvation with their bodies? The whole of the OT and NT is based on this formula--God created the earth and man and then SAVED them in this form. You seem to understand HOW we are saved, but not WHY we are saved. Yet, it is there in the Bible and when it is pointed out it is denied.

When you teach your children to brush their teeth--do you eventually share with them WHY?
When you ask your children to sit for hours on end in school, do you tell them WHY?
When you tell your children to eat their vegetables, do you tell them WHY?

Why then do you think God ignores the big WHY, if you being a flawed parent will tell your children why?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I've never agreed with the idea of "first cause" because it puts God on a timeline. IE--what was God doing before he "first caused" anything?
. This is a prayer being offered regarding the promise the God has made to Israel and asking God to dwell in the temple that Solomon created--but it is acknowledged that a temple can't contain him. It doesn't speak to the "size" of God, but that God is free to be anywhere he wants--but then goes on to ask the favor that he dwell there with them.

I understand that--especially in light that you believe the spirit is supreme. Certainly, God had the capability to form only spirits as he formed both spirits and bodies. I think this is one question most evangelicals never ask themselves--whey go to the effort to build the earth, create bodies for us and then save it all?

Yes, but provide salvation with their bodies? The whole of the OT and NT is based on this formula--God created the earth and man and then SAVED them in this form. You seem to understand HOW we are saved, but not WHY we are saved. Yet, it is there in the Bible and when it is pointed out it is denied.

When you teach your children to brush their teeth--do you eventually share with them WHY?
When you ask your children to sit for hours on end in school, do you tell them WHY?
When you tell your children to eat their vegetables, do you tell them WHY?

Why then do you think God ignores the big WHY, if you being a flawed parent will tell your children why?

Hi Julie,

Thanks for your reply. What was God doing before creation as we know it? I realize that I don't have to know everything in order to
believe those things that God has revealed.

God is omnipresent and a physical body cannot be.

We are saved because God so loved the world.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by disciple

God is omnipresent and a physical body cannot be.

That is why the third member of the Godhead exists...He is pure spirit and can be everywhere

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by disciple

God is omnipresent and a physical body cannot be.

That is why the third member of the Godhead exists...He is pure spirit and can be everywhere

[MickeyS]

[QUOTE=disciple;168355]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

God is the Creator of all things, the first cause and therefore must be infinite and uncreated. All that is created is necessarily finite and limited. That which is beyond the finite must, by definition, be infinite, and the Bible states that God is beyond creation.
1 Kings 8:27 says, "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you." That which is physical cannot be infinite you cannot add finite parts together until they reach infinity, that is why men can’t become God. God is not composed of matter or any other imaginable substance. He also cannot be measured, He is omnipresent. A physical body can only be in one location.

Is it your belief that Jesus Christ is "uncreated" and "infinite" as well? If He has a body....by what you believe, He cannot be?

[disciple]

[QUOTE=MickeyS;168368]

Originally Posted by disciple

Is it your belief that Jesus Christ is "uncreated" and "infinite" as well? If He has a body....by what you believe, He cannot be?

Well hi MickeyS, how are you?

Yes Jesus is infinite He always was, the Bible tells us that the "Word" (Jesus) became flesh and dwelt among us.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi Julie,

Thanks for your reply. What was God doing before creation as we know it? I realize that I don't have to know everything in order to
believe those things that God has revealed.

God is omnipresent and a physical body cannot be.

We are saved because God so loved the world.

When it think of God as eternal--I take away the timeline--all things are present before God--meaning, that if we have ever been, then we have always been. In other words, the basis of who we are has always existed and God has always known us in this form. As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we call this "intelligences."

Okay--I agree that God saved us because he loves us, but take it one step deeper. Why would loving us equate to savings us WITH our bodies, if being only spirit is the greater way to be?

[MickeyS]

[QUOTE=disciple;168369]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Well hi MickeyS, how are you?

Yes Jesus is infinite He always was, the Bible tells us that the "Word" (Jesus) became flesh and dwelt among us.

I'm good thanks

But that's the problem. If finite is defined by that which is physical...then Jesus Christ would have to be finite as well.