no need to restore the truth

[disciple]

[QUOTE=MickeyS;168404]

Originally Posted by disciple

I'm good thanks

But that's the problem. If finite is defined by that which is physical...then Jesus Christ would have to be finite as well.

Hi MickeyS,

Jesus being God is infinite and while He became flesh for a purpose He was still God and still infinite and
now has a glorified spiritual body.

Some verses from 1Cor. 15 explains it clearly.

“So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” 1 Cor 15:42-44

“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to p*** the saying that is
written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”1 Cor 15:53-54

[disciple]

[QUOTE=MickeyS;168404]

Originally Posted by disciple

I'm good thanks

But that's the problem. If finite is defined by that which is physical...then Jesus Christ would have to be finite as well.

Hi MickeyS,

Jesus being God is infinite and while He became flesh for a purpose He was still God and still infinite and
now has a glorified spiritual body.

Some verses from 1Cor. 15 explains it clearly.

“So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” 1 Cor 15:42-44

“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to p*** the saying that is
written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”1 Cor 15:53-54

[Apologette]

Mickey says the Mormon Holy Ghost can be everywhere, however the Mormon cult teaches that their "holy ghost" can only in one place at a time:

"The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a “personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time."

Gospel Principles Manual

So, Mickey is either being intentionally deceptive or doesn't know what she's talking about.

[Apologette]

Mickey says the Mormon Holy Ghost can be everywhere, however the Mormon cult teaches that their "holy ghost" can only in one place at a time:

"The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a “personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time."

Gospel Principles Manual

So, Mickey is either being intentionally deceptive or doesn't know what she's talking about.

[Apologette]

Mickey says the Mormon Holy Ghost can be everywhere, however the Mormon cult teaches that their "holy ghost" can only in one place at a time:

"The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a “personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time."

Gospel Principles Manual

So, Mickey is either being intentionally deceptive or doesn't know what she's talking about.

[Apologette]

Mickey says the Mormon Holy Ghost can be everywhere, however the Mormon cult teaches that their "holy ghost" can only in one place at a time:

"The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a “personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time."

Gospel Principles Manual

So, Mickey is either being intentionally deceptive or doesn't know what she's talking about.[/B]

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Mickey says the Mormon Holy Ghost can be everywhere, however the Mormon cult teaches that their "holy ghost" can only in one place at a time:

"The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a “personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time."

Gospel Principles Manual

So, Mickey is either being intentionally deceptive or doesn't know what she's talking about.[/B]

That's fine, my apologies for wording that "incorrectly". As a personage, yes, the Holy Ghost is only in one place...but BECAUSE He is pure spirit, His influence can be in all places at once. Through His influence, we can know the will of the Father. This is why The Holy Ghost is necessary. Him being spirit enables Him to "be everywhere" (of course, meaning His influence). I would hope those reading that definition would know what I meant, but maybe I should have been more specific. Lol

I certainly wasn't lying, and I know what I meant

Let me ask you a question
Is God pure spirit without a body?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi MickeyS,

Jesus being God is infinite and while He became flesh for a purpose He was still God and still infinite and
now has a glorified spiritual body.

Some verses from 1Cor. 15 explains it clearly.

“So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” 1 Cor 15:42-44

“For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to p*** the saying that is
written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”1 Cor 15:53-54

Yes, this explains the change that occurs when we are resurrected. It's not that we are just reunited with a physical body like we were before...we are resurrected with a "spiritual body" the "spiritual body" which is raised, is the glorified physical body after being resurrected. "Death is swallowed up in victory" since after being resurrected with our bodies, we become immortal, so its different from the physical body we had in mortality, (because it cannot die) but it's still a body and not pure spirit.

It's basically comparing the difference between a mortal body and a resurrected immortal body, sure.

Jesus Christ now has a glorified physical body. So in His glorified spiritual BODY (not pure spirit), is He still infinite?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Yes, this explains the change that occurs when we are resurrected. It's not that we are just reunited with a physical body like we were before...we are resurrected with a "spiritual body" the "spiritual body" which is raised, is the glorified physical body after being resurrected. "Death is swallowed up in victory" since after being resurrected with our bodies, we become immortal, so its different from the physical body we had in mortality, (because it cannot die) but it's still a body and not pure spirit.

It's basically comparing the difference between a mortal body and a resurrected immortal body, sure.

Jesus Christ now has a glorified physical body. So in His glorified spiritual BODY (not pure spirit), is He still infinite?

Hey Mickey,

I don't pretend to fully understand what a glorified body is, but Jesus is infinite. Consider the following verses.

"But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom." Heb 1:8

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Heb 13:8

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hey Mickey,

I don't pretend to fully understand what a glorified body is, but Jesus is infinite. Consider the following verses.

"But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom." Heb 1:8

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Heb 13:8

We agree. But based on this, your argument for why you believe God the Father is spirit only just vanished. You just made the argument that having a glorified body does not diminish Christ in any way. We believe Christ came to teach us about His Father and our Father. While you argue for a difference between the two--distinguishing characteristics, we do not.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hey Mickey,

I don't pretend to fully understand what a glorified body is, but Jesus is infinite. Consider the following verses.

"But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom." Heb 1:8

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Heb 13:8

We agree. But based on this, your argument for why you believe God the Father is spirit only just vanished. You just made the argument that having a glorified body does not diminish Christ in any way. We believe Christ came to teach us about His Father and our Father. While you argue for a difference between the two--distinguishing characteristics, we do not.

[alanmolstad]

the Word "became" flesh....


The Word was not always flesh.....this is why the Bible tells us that the Word "became" flesh.



The father never was flesh...nor did the father ever become flesh.

[alanmolstad]

so the nature of God is spirit...and thus invisible....for this is why the bible tells us that Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE GOD !

For the Word "became"flesh.....thus Jesus has to totally different natures.
the 1st nature is God...thus spirit...thus invisible.
The 2nd nature that Jesus has is man....thus flesh...thus you can feel and see him.



and this is why the Bible tells us that Jesus is the image ( visible) of the INVISIBLE GOD ( spirit)

[disciple]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

We agree. But based on this, your argument for why you believe God the Father is spirit only just vanished. You just made the argument that having a glorified body does not diminish Christ in any way. We believe Christ came to teach us about His Father and our Father. While you argue for a difference between the two--distinguishing characteristics, we do not.

Hi Julie,

The bible tells us that Jesus, who was always with God, became flesh and was resurrected in a glorified body. The bible also tells us that God is Spirit and does not tell us that He ever had or will have a body. Where does that idea come from?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hey Mickey,

I don't pretend to fully understand what a glorified body is, but Jesus is infinite. Consider the following verses.

"But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom." Heb 1:8

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Heb 13:8

Yes, but by the standards you have given, Jesus Christ cannot be infinite because He has a body

"That which is physical cannot be infinite"

[disciple]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Yes, but by the standards you have given, Jesus Christ cannot be infinite because He has a body

"That which is physical cannot be infinite"

But a glorified, resurrected body is not the physical body we know. If you remember Luke 24 Jesus vanished
from the sight of the disciples He met on the road to Emmaus and He also appeared to the Apostles in a
locked room. So we obviously cannot put the limitations of our finite physical bodies on the risen, glorified
Lord Jesus.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by disciple

But a glorified, resurrected body is not the physical body we know. If you remember Luke 24 Jesus vanished
from the sight of the disciples He met on the road to Emmaus and He also appeared to the Apostles in a
locked room. So we obviously cannot put the limitations of our finite physical bodies on the risen, glorified
Lord Jesus.

So that which is physical can be infinite then.

Ok, so why can't God have a glorified body as well? We are told several times in the Bible that if you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father, that The Son is the express image of The Father, The Son does what He has seen The Father do...etc

Plus we were made in Gods image, and one day we will have glorified resurrected bodies as well.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so the nature of God is spirit...and thus invisible....for this is why the bible tells us that Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE GOD !

For the Word "became"flesh.....thus Jesus has to totally different natures.
the 1st nature is God...thus spirit...thus invisible.
The 2nd nature that Jesus has is man....thus flesh...thus you can feel and see him.



and this is why the Bible tells us that Jesus is the image ( visible) of the INVISIBLE GOD ( spirit)

Invisible....what is the definition of invisible?

1- not visible, not perceptible by the eye
2- out of sight, hidden

oh, look at that. Invisible can mean it's hidden or out of sight, not that it can't be seen AT ALL.

That is how Jesus is the image of the INVISIBLE (hidden) God.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi Julie,

The bible tells us that Jesus, who was always with God, became flesh and was resurrected in a glorified body. The bible also tells us that God is Spirit and does not tell us that He ever had or will have a body. Where does that idea come from?

Where does the idea come from? From Jesus Christ--once he was resurrected and glorified. Once we learn this about Christ and understanding that Christ's whole mission is to glorify (show us) his Father; then that which was not understood prior to his resurrection is now clear. Hence, in the beginning we learn we are made after the image of God and then Christ shows us how and why.

[disciple]

Hi Julie and MickeyS,

Thanks for the discussion. How do you reconcile what Jesus said in the following verses from Luke and John
with what is said by some of your prophets? Serious question, no malice intended.

“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4:24

“Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” Luke 24:39

“He is our Father-the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being. How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not p***ing through the same ordeals that we are now p***ing through.”
Brigham Young - Mormon prophet. Journal of Discourses 7:333


“For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.”
— Moroni 8:18

“For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?”
— Mormon 9:9

“For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever...”
— 1 Nephi 10:18

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi Julie and MickeyS,

Thanks for the discussion. How do you reconcile what Jesus said in the following verses from Luke and John
with what is said by some of your prophets? Serious question, no malice intended.

“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4:24

“Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” Luke 24:39

“He is our Father-the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being. How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not p***ing through the same ordeals that we are now p***ing through.”
Brigham Young - Mormon prophet. Journal of Discourses 7:333


“For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.”
— Moroni 8:18

“For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?”
— Mormon 9:9

“For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever...”
— 1 Nephi 10:18

First off, let's be clear that the Journal of Discourses is not scripture. In fact, it doesn't take much research to learn that they were not written by Brigham Young. Instead, they were written by another and not edited by Brigham Young. So, we have them as a part of history and we use them to help us learn, but we also don't view them as scripture (revelation from God.)

So, if Brigham Young made that statement, why would he make that statement? Well, the very first word of the Old Testament is "elohim" created the heavens and earth. Literally, this means "gods". As Mormons, we use the term "Elohim" as a ***le to differentiate God the Father from Jesus Christ, but literally, elohim just means "gods." Second, Jesus Christ tells us that He does nothing save He has seen the Father do. We can get into all kinds of discussions about what this really means--but it would all be speculation if it is not revealed to us and given as scripture. What we do know for sure is Christ has a glorified, resurrected body. What we also know (in my scripture) is God the Father has the same. Once this becomes clear, then so many other verses become clear. For example, Genesis 1 in which we learn we are created in the image of our Father. Christ telling us that this is life eternal, to know the Father and himself. Christ telling us that he comes to glorify the Father--so we can be one with Him. Learning that when we see God, we shall be like him. In other words, while in the Old Testament, who God the Father is still vaguely understood--in the New Testament Christ allows us to know him. He asks to be perfect, even as His Father is perfect. He not only shows us the way, He IS the way. (I really believe this is the excuse the Jews made for crucifying Christ. While their motives were power, their excuse was that God can't possibly have a son and we can't really know the Father. It is not surprising to me then, that 300 years after Christ this same argument is made for political reasons. If one can't really know God, then the government can act in his place, right?)

So, why did Christ tell the Samaritan women that God is spirit? Because he is and it is through his spirit that we get to know him. If you keep reading in John, you will see Christ tell his disciples that the flesh is nothing, but it is the spirit that gives life. (It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63.) But we also see another pattern with Christ, meaning that when he is speaking to non-believers, he does not give them the meat of the gospel, but the milk. The Samaritan was not a disciple and was not even a Jew. He was giving her the basics. You can see this as well when Christ speaks to the Pharisees or to the Saducees. He does not explain the full-gospel, but the milk. Hence, when he said, "Give unto Caesar what is Caesars" he doesn't fully explain about ***hing, but he doesn't say that one doesn't need to give to God. He merely gives a broad statement to make them think. With learning of the difference of the spirit and of the flesh, can you see why his disciples would be surprised he has a body of flesh--especially in light of his teachings? But, here in his resurrection, he is glorifying His Father and our Father. They are learning something new. They are learning that the body is resurrected and when it is exalted and glorified, it is not limiting. He is also teaching them what is possible if they follow him. (As all will be resurrected, but not all will be glorified and exalted. See Corinthians.)

So, let's get to the unchanging--non-varying part of God.

It helps to understand this point of doctrine: "Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all."

First off, as we believe God is eternal,we also understand we are eternal. Why? Because God knows all and knowing all, knows us. This is why we can be "foreordained" or predestined. He knows who we are or the basis for who we are. This is our natures--the part that chooses away from God. God did not make something flawed, but rather our natures have always existed. This is why He can know who will choose to follow him and who will not. Our life then is one of self-discovery. He calls all to come unto him and follow Him, but he already knows us.

Once we understand God's eternal nature, then we know that He has and always will be perfect. He has always been and will always be greater than we are. He is unchanging, unwavering in his perfection-his completeness, his holiness, his grace, his truth, etc. But God does subdue and submit all things to him.

"1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him."

Having a body means that even the flesh is subject to Him. Now, you can believe that Jesus Christ is just a part of God the Father who is spirit, but we do not see this difference. We see Christ as teaching us who God the Father is. God already having power over the flesh.

Which brings us to the last question---why does God subdue and save this world and our physical bodies? Why was that important to him?

It is because God is a God of creation. We learn from this world how God works and why. He created us and the grand promise that he made to Abraham and kept the covenant through the atonement of Jesus Christ is that we can continue to create; just as we do here--if and only if we follow him. This is how the OT fits with the NT. God did not create us, marry us, command us to create (multiply) only to save us so he could sterilize us and divorce us. We believe it is through Jesus Christ "worlds without end" are created. Why? Because it is through him we are saved and perfected.

This is the cause of so much criticism of my beliefs. This is what is ridiculed and put down. Heaven forbid that God, the great creator, would use us to create in this life and the next.

And heaven forbid we can learn this through the spirit, through prayer--and can really know God and be perfected by him! That is why we are criticized.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

First off, let's be clear that the Journal of Discourses is not scripture. In fact, it doesn't take much research to learn that they were not written by Brigham Young. Instead, they were written by another and not edited by Brigham Young. So, we have them as a part of history and we use them to help us learn, but we also don't view them as scripture (revelation from God.)

So, if Brigham Young made that statement, why would he make that statement? Well, the very first word of the Old Testament is "elohim" created the heavens and earth. Literally, this means "gods". As Mormons, we use the term "Elohim" as a ***le to differentiate God the Father from Jesus Christ, but literally, elohim just means "gods." Second, Jesus Christ tells us that He does nothing save He has seen the Father do. We can get into all kinds of discussions about what this really means--but it would all be speculation if it is not revealed to us and given as scripture. What we do know for sure is Christ has a glorified, resurrected body. What we also know (in my scripture) is God the Father has the same. Once this becomes clear, then so many other verses become clear. For example, Genesis 1 in which we learn we are created in the image of our Father. Christ telling us that this is life eternal, to know the Father and himself. Christ telling us that he comes to glorify the Father--so we can be one with Him. Learning that when we see God, we shall be like him. In other words, while in the Old Testament, who God the Father is still vaguely understood--in the New Testament Christ allows us to know him. He asks to be perfect, even as His Father is perfect. He not only shows us the way, He IS the way. (I really believe this is the excuse the Jews made for crucifying Christ. While their motives were power, their excuse was that God can't possibly have a son and we can't really know the Father. It is not surprising to me then, that 300 years after Christ this same argument is made for political reasons. If one can't really know God, then the government can act in his place, right?)

So, why did Christ tell the Samaritan women that God is spirit? Because he is and it is through his spirit that we get to know him. If you keep reading in John, you will see Christ tell his disciples that the flesh is nothing, but it is the spirit that gives life. (It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. John 6:63.) But we also see another pattern with Christ, meaning that when he is speaking to non-believers, he does not give them the meat of the gospel, but the milk. The Samaritan was not a disciple and was not even a Jew. He was giving her the basics. You can see this as well when Christ speaks to the Pharisees or to the Saducees. He does not explain the full-gospel, but the milk. Hence, when he said, "Give unto Caesar what is Caesars" he doesn't fully explain about ***hing, but he doesn't say that one doesn't need to give to God. He merely gives a broad statement to make them think. With learning of the difference of the spirit and of the flesh, can you see why his disciples would be surprised he has a body of flesh--especially in light of his teachings? But, here in his resurrection, he is glorifying His Father and our Father. They are learning something new. They are learning that the body is resurrected and when it is exalted and glorified, it is not limiting. He is also teaching them what is possible if they follow him. (As all will be resurrected, but not all will be glorified and exalted. See Corinthians.)

So, let's get to the unchanging--non-varying part of God.

It helps to understand this point of doctrine: "Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all."

First off, we believe God is eternal, we are eternal. Why? Because God knows all and knowing all, knows us. This is why we can be "foreordained" or predestined. He knows who we are or the basis for who we are. This is our natures--the part that chooses away from God. God did not make something flawed, but rather our natures have always existed. This is why He can know who will choose to follow him and who will not. Our life then is one of self-discovery. He calls all to come unto him and follow Him, but he already knows us.

Once we understand God's eternal nature, then we know that He has and always will be perfect. He has always been and will always be greater than we are. He is unchanging, unwavering in his perfection-his completeness, his holiness, his grace, his truth, etc. But God does subdue and submit all things to him.

"1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him."

Having a body means that even the flesh is subject to Him. Now, you can believe that Jesus Christ is just a part of God the Father who is spirit, but we do not see this difference. We see Christ as teaching us who God the Father is. God already having power over the flesh.

Which brings us to the last question---why does God subdue and save this world and or physical bodies? Why was that important to him?

It is because God is a God of creation. We learn from this world how God works and why. He created us and the grand promise that he made to Abraham and kept the covenant through the atonement of Jesus Christ is that we can continue to create; just as we do here--if and only if we follow him. This is how the OT fits with the NT. God did not create us, marry us, command us to create (multiply) only to save us so he could sterilize us and divorce us. We believe it is through Jesus Christ "worlds without end" are created. Why? Because it is through him we are saved and perfected.

This is the cause of so much criticism of my beliefs. This is what is ridiculed and put down. Heaven forbid that God, the great creator, would use us to create in this life and the next.

Hi Julie, thanks for your reply.

I don't believe as you believe but I see no reason why we should ridicule or put each other down while we discuss things.
After all it is God's Holy Spirit who convicts and leads to all truth, not you or I.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi Julie, thanks for your reply.

I don't believe as you believe but I see no reason why we should ridicule or put each other down while we discuss things.
After all it is God's Holy Spirit who convicts and leads to all truth, not you or I.

On this we agree--it is the Holy Ghost who testifies of truth. We can bear testimony, but ultimately, it is up to the person to ask and seek after truth--at which we receive this promise:

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi Julie and MickeyS,

Thanks for the discussion. How do you reconcile what Jesus said in the following verses from Luke and John
with what is said by some of your prophets? Serious question, no malice intended.

“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
John 4:24

You're welcome

The verse about worshipping Him in spirit is a lesson in how we should worship Him, it is not telling us God is Spirit ONLY. Hebrews 12:29 say that God is a consuming fire, 1 Jn 1:5 says God is light, and 1 Jn 4:4,16 says that God is love. Is He just those things? Clearly not. So in this case, as with the others, it is a part of what He is, not the whole.

“Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” Luke 24:39

And this verse is the Savior comforting His disciples who, upon seeing Him, thought Him to be a ghost (spirit). Again, this is not teaching about the nature of God, but confirming the flesh & bones resurrection of Jesus Christ. This confirms what I've been saying about Jesus having a FLESH & BONES body in His glorified state.

With these Book of Mormon verses, you need to understand the context and what they are teaching. They are teaching that God's Will, His Plan, His TRUTH is unchanging. These verses deal with those who teach contrary doctrine.

"For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.”
— Moroni 8:18

This verse backs up what is being taught about the false teaching that unbaptized children would go to hell. God is unchanging....His doctrine is unchanging. In other words, He wouldn't teach that all children are precious to Him and then decide that unbaptized children go to hell. Unchanging....

"16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.
17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation."
Moroni 8:16-17

"For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of changing?”
— Mormon 9:9

Moroni is addressing those who teach and claim that Biblical miracles, gifts of the Spirit, revelation....etc.. have been done away with. Those things and more are not done away with because men decide they are. Unchanging

For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever...”
— 1 Nephi 10:18

This speaks of the plan of salvation which never changes. God can add to what we know...but His Plan....never changes

That all being said, you yourself believe in an "unchanging God", yet Jesus Christ (who you believe to be God) changed quite a bit. How do you reconcile that?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi Julie,

The bible also tells us that God is Spirit and does not tell us that He ever had or will have a body. Where does that idea come from?

Hi Disciple I believe The Bible teaches it quite clearly

"John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

Jesus does not say, "he that seen me hath seen God" (which would conform more with a trinitarian view, I suppose) He was quite specific that SEEING Him was like seeing The Father.

And these others
I think it was a strong teaching from the beginning..I see nowhere in these verses that state we are made in the "image" of His spirit
-God created man in his own image: Gen. 1:27 .
-God created man, in the likeness of God made he him: Gen. 5:1 .
-in the image of God made he man: Gen. 9:6 .

He has a voice...this is also very clear teachings that God is separate from Jesus
-a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son: Matt. 3:17
-a voice out of the cloud: Matt. 17:5

Stephen saw God
-the Son of man standing on the right hand of God: Acts 7:56

And more teachings about Jesus Christ being the EXPRESS image of God. One of the reasons Jesus came to earth was to teach us more about God, and that includes what He looks like.

-Christ, who is the image of God: 2*Cor.
-Who is the image of the invisible God: Col. 1:15 (remember, invisible also means that which is hidden from view, just as God's person is hidden from our view)
-the express image of his person: Heb. 1:3

And again, we are made after the image of God
-men, which are made after the similitude of God: James 3:9

And when we are resurrected, we will be like Him as well
-Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body...Philip. 3:21

I believe it has been clearly taught from the beginning. I personally see these as stronger evidence than one verse that states God is spirit, when many other verses describe God as being many different things(fire, love, light), but we know He is not ONLY those things. Why would THAT ONE particular verse (God is spirit) be different from the rest? Especially when so many other verses teach that God does indeed have a body?

I hope the verses made sense...I'm typing quickly

Thank you for the discussion, really...it helps me as well. I'm not being sarcastic when I say this, that discussing this actually helps my testimony.