Bible alone?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by childofgod

So do you believe the Old Testament is all we need? You and other critics always cry "We don't need the Book of Mormon. We have all the gospel we need in the Bible," but now you say the Old Testament has all we need yet you still follow the New Testament, and I use the term folloe very very loosely.

I clearly said that there is no difference between the means of salvation found in the Old and New Testaments and there isn't. So?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by theway

Im sorry... Deceived in what way???
Please show where my ***essment of your beliefs is incorrect?

Faith alone nonsense? Is Ephesians 2:8-9 nonsense? Is ***us 3:5 nonsense, John 5:24, Romans 10:9-10?
You believe in a mother god which is not mentioned once in the Bible, yet faith alone in Jesus Christ is nonsense. You are very deceived.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by childofgod

You have a habit of avoiding answering questions.

On another running topic I cant even get people to ask me questions...




We are saved by grace, though faith.

In the Old Test we see the guys are said to have great faith, and it is counted as righteousness.
The works of some of the guys talked about in the Old Test is not so great however....
Many were leading rather evil lives.
But the one common thing they all seemed to have is a great faith.


Under the New Covenant, we Christians are not under the Law but now we live under grace, but the common thing we have with the men who lived under the Law is that we also have a great faith.
It is this common thing we share that makes us united with the men of the Old test.....our faith.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Faith alone is never taught in scripture. Faith is dead without works. Christ taught we are to do works of righteousness and Revelation teaches us we are judged for our WORKS. Paul taught we are to be DOERS, not just hearers, and that we are to work out our salvation l

This post shows the ignorance of the mormon religion about what 'faith alone' doctrine is.

FAITH IS NEVER ALONE.

BUT

FAITH BY ITSELF COMES FIRST.
We do the works BECAUSE WE HAVE FAITH IN JESUS.

NOT TO 'GET' faith in Jesus, but because we HAVE faith in Jesus.

And it is FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST that saves us.

Yes, we DO do good works. But NOT TO 'GET SAVED.' We are SAVED BY FAITH, not by 'doing good works.'

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Gifts are not earned wages.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Christian

This post shows the ignorance of the mormon religion about what 'faith alone' doctrine is.

this post shows how ignorant some anti-mormons are about what saves us. keep reading....

And it is FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST that saves us.
We are SAVED BY FAITH, not by 'doing good works.'

most christians believe that we saved by grace, not by faith.

Gifts are not earned wages.

that is correct. so if someone tells you that there is a gift for you hidden somewhere, then it's not earned wages if you decide to search for the gift, and through your hard work, you find it.

[Christian]

cog posted:

Originally Posted by Christian

This post shows the ignorance of the mormon religion about what 'faith alone' doctrine is.

FAITH IS NEVER ALONE.

BUT

FAITH BY ITSELF COMES FIRST.
We do the works BECAUSE WE HAVE FAITH IN JESUS.

NOT TO 'GET' faith in Jesus, but because we HAVE faith in Jesus.

And it is FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST that saves us.

Yes, we DO do good works. But NOT TO 'GET SAVED.' We are SAVED BY FAITH, not by 'doing good works.'

Eph 2:7-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Gifts are not earned wages

.

Muslims have faith in Jesus Christ as a prophet, that doesn't mean they're saved.

Mormons have faith in a 'spirit-brother-of-satan' 'jesus,' but that doesn't mean they are saved either.

Nobody here has said works save, we save ourselves, etc. Nearly every critic of the church claims we believe our works save us when that's not what we believe at all

Works + Faith do not save you either. FAITH IN THE TRUE JESUS CHRIST is what counts as righteousness from Jesus:
Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

I am not interested in answering for 'nearly every critic of [your] church,' but the TRUTH is that your church does NOT teach that concept. Instead, it teaches a 'work for your exaltation to godhood' concept that the WORD OF GOD (the BIBLE) denies.

Works help us become like Christ, they're for our exaltation.

"Exaltation" to what? GODHOOD THAT GOD GIVES TO NOBODY? Naah, Works are simply FOR THE LORD, because we LOVE HIM. Not for OUR gain.

Salvation is in Christ but we are still required to obey Christ's commandments.

FAITH WORKS. FAITH PRODUCES works. IF you have faith, your works will reflect it. They are not 'required,' but if they are NOT there, you likely have no faith that would bring them about.

GODLY works are NOT for profit. They ARE NOT wages to 'earn' you any 'exaltation.'

IF your works are for GOD they are NOT FOR YOU.

The basic FLAW in the 'exaltation' theory of mormonism.

[Christian]

cog posted:
So we don't need anything other than 1 Corinthians 15:1? Dang, that's a lot of inspiration to ignore.

Gal 1:6-9
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
NKJV

Jude 3-4
3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
NKJV

Your new 'gospel' of 'exaltation to godhood,' and of false gods and a false christ condemn your religion.

What new gospel? We don't teach trinitarianism, that's Protestantism.

It's simply BIBLICAL.

The Father is God
Jesus is God
The Holy Ghost is GOD
and
THEY ARE ONE GOD (ISAIAH 43:10 etc etc etc)

We label that concept 'The Trinity.'

We teach the gospel of Jesus Christ and I've already shown it before and I will not keep repeating myself just because you choose to ignore the truth every time.

Just because YOU SAY it does NOT make it become the truth.

Your cult has conned you.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Those verses have nothing to do with your idea. They simply teach us that salvation is in Christ. Nowhere do those verses say anything about a limit on scripture.

I understood the question, I just took it a step further in my answer. For one, there is no such thing as saving knowledge. Knowledge doesn't save.

For your question on a simpler level, I'll answer it with this question and scenario: World War II eventually contained Germany vs United States. There are books written about it from the average American's perspective; there also exists books and diaries of victims of the Holocaust who were actually in the concentration camps. The former people have an idea as to what is like and the latter were there to witness it first hand. Tell me, can you obtain a greater insight on the said war by reading one half of the story or will a person gain a greater fullness of study by reading and studying both sides of this international story?

The word of God has never been limited, at least not by God, Jesus, or the Holy Ghost. The idea of a closed canon is man's idea, not God's.

People interpret the Bible many different ways, its like a dot with never-ending lines being drawn through it. The Book of Mormon is the second dot on the paper. How many lines can be drawn between 2 dots? One. The Book of Mormon helps eliminate the many interpretations people apply to the Bible.

"The Bible can be interpreted differently" is something I hear people a lot. Applying it differently and interpreting it differently are 2 different things completely. Applying is "How can this part help me right now" whereas interpreting is "The doctrine is this." One can say they believe in Jesus all they want, false doctrine is false doctrine and no amount of devotion changes that.

The Bible is true but it isn't all God has given us. What happens if the Book of Mormon is true? Would you follow it since it comes from God or just use the Bible?

Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus. The Gospel is the Good News that Jesus paid for the sins of all believers.

We know that in everything God works for good with those who love him, who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.
- Romans 8

Ignoring scripture and proceeding to write a book and call it scripture is a recipe for disaster!

Hoping you'll read the New Testament and see the incredible Good News within it's pages.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus.

Great! Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, so we must be saved, right?

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

Please.... Even you don't believe in this Modern heretical Faith Alone nonsense... Otherwise you wouldn't of created this thread telling us salvation exists within the Protestant 66 books. To hold true to your Faith Alone beliefs you should be telling us that the Bible in any form or version is not needed for salvation.

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

God uses His word to convince sinners. What we need is faith and God opens our ears, gives us faith, and gives us the new birth!

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Great! Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, so we must be saved, right?

oops. now the goal-post-moving part of the attack on the mormons will begin....

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Great! Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, so we must be saved, right?

Not according to Mormonism --- D&C 130:20–21.

Hoping you'll read the New Testament and see the incredible Good News within it's pages.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

oops. now the goal-post-moving part of the attack on the mormons will begin....

Hopefully, no one will attack you.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Faith alone is never taught in scripture. Faith is dead without works. Christ taught we are to do works of righteousness and Revelation teaches us we are judged for our WORKS. Paul taught we are to be DOERS, not just hearers, and that we are to work out our salvation l

plus, paul told the corinthian christians that you can have all the faith in the world but if you don't have charity, you are nothing. charity is greater than faith and hope. so even paul--the apostle who is used by sola fide as their main source of dogma--taught that faith alone is nothing compared to charity.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

plus, paul told the corinthian christians that you can all the faith in the world but if you don't have charity, you are nothing. charity is greater than faith and hope. so even paul--the apostle who is used by sola fide as their main source of dogma--taught that faith alone is nothing compared to charity.

***us 3
3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;


1 Thessalonians 5:8
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

Love in Christ,

Grandma

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Grandma

... he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

this verse seems to be saying that he saved us by our water baptism and by the baptism of fire that came afterward.

which implies that there are things we must do in order to be saved. at least two of them---first have faith, and second be baptized. plus, other verses say that repentance is yet another thing we need to do in order to be saved, so that makes at least three.

... be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

that verse mentions what i already said: that charity (sometimes translated as love) is at least as necessary as faith is. so there is no way that faith alone can save you. you can have faith AND hope that jesus exists and that he loves you and that he died for you, and still not end up with eternal life. 2 out of 3 isn't good enough to get eternal life, if the one you lacked was charity. it is greater than faith and hope. it is so important that if you don't have it, you are nothing.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Faith alone is never taught in scripture. Faith is dead without works. Christ taught we are to do works of righteousness and Revelation teaches us we are judged for our WORKS. Paul taught we are to be DOERS, not just hearers, and that we are to work out our salvation l

Faith isn't alone because it connects us to God.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:5

Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Matthew 7:16

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

this verse seems to be saying that he saved us by our water baptism and by the baptism of fire that came afterward.

which implies that there are things we must do in order to be saved. at least two of them---first have faith, and second be baptized. plus, other verses say that repentance is yet another thing we need to do in order to be saved, so that makes at least three.


that verse mentions what i already said: that charity (sometimes translated as love) is at least as necessary as faith is. so there is no way that faith alone can save you. you can have faith AND hope that jesus exists and that he loves you and that he died for you, and still not end up with eternal life. 2 out of 3 isn't good enough to get eternal life, if the one you lacked was charity. it is greater than faith and hope. it is so important that if you don't have it, you are nothing.

Those who have faith in Christ lack nothing.

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
John 15:5

Ephesians 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Those who have faith in Christ lack nothing.

Paul taught: "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Paul taught: "If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing."

What is your point? Christians have love. And I'm very familiar with 1 Corinthians Chapter 13,


In Christian Love,

Grandma

[chuckt]

Originally Posted by theway

Does anyone know of a good forum for Mormon - Modern Christian debate.
This one is sooooooo.... dead, although it really was not very good to begin with, and CARM has become too restrictive.

There is a religion section at usmessageboard but they won't delete your account after you join and you should probably add an add blocker to your browser. There are a couple of users who will bait you so you get in trouble with the rules there. Their message board is the pit of hell though and they ended up with a Mormon moderator who doesn't always answer my questions. I had a past debate with him. I'm on the religion forum at somd right now and wouldn't want to take anyone away from this message board.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Those verses have nothing to do with your idea. They simply teach us that salvation is in Christ. Nowhere do those verses say anything about a limit on scripture.

I understood the question, I just took it a step further in my answer. For one, there is no such thing as saving knowledge. Knowledge doesn't save.

For your question on a simpler level, I'll answer it with this question and scenario: World War II eventually contained Germany vs United States. There are books written about it from the average American's perspective; there also exists books and diaries of victims of the Holocaust who were actually in the concentration camps. The former people have an idea as to what is like and the latter were there to witness it first hand. Tell me, can you obtain a greater insight on the said war by reading one half of the story or will a person gain a greater fullness of study by reading and studying both sides of this international story?

The word of God has never been limited, at least not by God, Jesus, or the Holy Ghost. The idea of a closed canon is man's idea, not God's.

People interpret the Bible many different ways, its like a dot with never-ending lines being drawn through it. The Book of Mormon is the second dot on the paper. How many lines can be drawn between 2 dots? One. The Book of Mormon helps eliminate the many interpretations people apply to the Bible.

"The Bible can be interpreted differently" is something I hear people a lot. Applying it differently and interpreting it differently are 2 different things completely. Applying is "How can this part help me right now" whereas interpreting is "The doctrine is this." One can say they believe in Jesus all they want, false doctrine is false doctrine and no amount of devotion changes that.

The Bible is true but it isn't all God has given us. What happens if the Book of Mormon is true? Would you follow it since it comes from God or just use the Bible?

Mormons ignore the Gospel and add oodles of requirements for salvation that were dreamed up by Joseph Smith; those requirements contradict the Bible.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Not according to Mormonism --- D&C 130:20–21.

I'm asking you.

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons have salvation by God's grace.

Is there a flaw in that reasoning?

[disciple]

Originally Posted by Erundur

I'm asking you.

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons have salvation by God's grace.

Is there a flaw in that reasoning?

Here is the flaw.
"In Mormonism, Jesus is a creation, the product of relations between god and his goddess wife who used to be people from another world (McConkie, Bruce, Mormon Doctrine, p. 192, 321, 516, 589). Jesus is the literal spirit brother of the devil and of you and I (McConkie, p. 192, 589). Also, in Mormon theology, God has a body of flesh and bones (Doctrine & Covenants 130:22) as does his wife and together they produce spirit offspring in heaven who inhabit human bodies on earth."

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by disciple

Here is the flaw.

I meant, is there a flaw in the syllogism I proposed?