Bible alone?

[chuckt]

Originally Posted by Erundur

I meant, is there a flaw in the syllogism I proposed?

I would say that Mormonism has a different Jesus and faith put into a false Jesus cannot save. I can buy fake electronic chips on the internet but they won't behave the same as the real chips.

Deuteronomy 13:1 ¶ If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deuteronomy 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to p***, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deuteronomy 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

God is testing you whether you love Him or not and if you want God to use you then you have to p*** His tests.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Erundur

I'm asking you.

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons have salvation by God's grace.

Is there a flaw in that reasoning?

I see several flaws.

1. - 2. Mormons do not have faith that Christ's blood saves us to spend eternity with God; they teach that salvation along with all other blessings must be earned.

3. Mormons believe that their own works are required for salvation.

Requirements for Exaltation
. The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32-34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and understanding of the truth; and 'live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God' " (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey his commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.
. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
. We must receive the temple endowment.
. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to--

. Love and worship God.
. Love our neighbor.
. Repent of our wrongdoings.
. Live the law of chas***y.
. Pay honest ***hes and offerings.
. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
. Speak the truth always.
. Obey the Word of Wisdom.
. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
. Have family and individual prayers every day.
. Honor our parents.
. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
. Study the scriptures.
. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.

Gospel Principles, (2011), 277–79


In Christian love,

Grandma

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by chuckt

I would say that Mormonism has a different Jesus and faith put into a false Jesus cannot save.

That's possible, since we believe in Jesus Christ. So would something like this be more accurate?

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of some Jesus other than Jesus Christ.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons do not have salvation by God's grace.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Grandma

I see several flaws.

1. - 2. Mormons do not have faith that Christ's blood saves us to spend eternity with God; they teach that salvation along with all other blessings must be earned.

This is false, since Mormons do in fact have faith the Christ's blood saves us, so 1 & 2 fail.

3. Mormons believe that their own works are required for salvation.

Requirements for Exaltation

You say we believe our works are required for salvation, but then quote requirements for exaltation, so that doesn't work.

But it sounds like you want to rewrite the syllogism to something like:

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus, plus not believing that any of your own works (like repentance, baptism, or obeying God's commandments) are required.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, but believe that their own works (like repentance, baptism, and obeying God's commandments) are required.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons do not have salvation by God's grace.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Erundur

This is false, since Mormons do in fact have faith the Christ's blood saves us, so 1 & 2 fail.
You say we believe our works are required for salvation, but then quote requirements for exaltation, so that doesn't work.
But it sounds like you want to rewrite the syllogism to something like:
Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus, plus not believing that any of your own works (like repentance, baptism, or obeying God's commandments) are required.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, but believe that their own works (like repentance, baptism, and obeying God's commandments) are required.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons do not have salvation by God's grace.

I see your point, and it look like a good one. it's like this:

suppose an anti-mormon believes that the recipe for apple pie is apples, flour, sugar, water, and shortening.

and a mormon adds all those ingredients together--plus cinnamon--and bakes it.

and then the anti-mormon says "that is not a true apple pie, because you added an ingredient that is not in the recipe i use."

so the mormon asks: "didn't i use all the ingredients in your recipe? so what if i believe that there should one more ingredient than you believe there should be--isn't it still an apple pie?"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Grandma

I see several flaws.

1. - 2. Mormons do not have faith that Christ's blood saves us to spend eternity with God; they teach that salvation along with all other blessings must be earned.

3. Mormons believe that their own works are required for salvation.

Requirements for Exaltation
. The time to fulfill the requirements for exaltation is now (see Alma 34:32-34). President Joseph Fielding Smith said, "In order to obtain the exaltation we must accept the gospel and all its covenants; and take upon us the obligations which the Lord has offered; and walk in the light and understanding of the truth; and 'live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God' " (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:43).

To be exalted, we first must place our faith in Jesus Christ and then endure in that faith to the end of our lives. Our faith in him must be such that we repent of our sins and obey his commandments.

He commands us all to receive certain ordinances:

. We must be baptized and confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.
. We must receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
. We must receive the temple endowment.
. We must be married for time and eternity.

In addition to receiving the required ordinances, the Lord commands all of us to--

. Love and worship God.
. Love our neighbor.
. Repent of our wrongdoings.
. Live the law of chas***y.
. Pay honest ***hes and offerings.
. Be honest in our dealings with others and with the Lord.
. Speak the truth always.
. Obey the Word of Wisdom.
. Search out our kindred dead and perform the saving ordinances of the gospel for them.
. Keep the Sabbath day holy.
. Attend our Church meetings as regularly as possible so we can renew our baptismal covenants by partaking of the sacrament.
. Love our family members and strengthen them in the ways of the Lord.
. Have family and individual prayers every day.
. Honor our parents.
. Teach the gospel to others by word and example.
. Study the scriptures.
. Listen to and obey the inspired words of the prophets of the Lord.

Finally, each of us needs to receive the Holy Ghost and learn to follow his direction in our individual lives.

Gospel Principles, (2011), 277–79


In Christian love,

Grandma

You are correct.

You also seem to have a great deal more understandings of the Mormon CULT that the average person...

You have had dealings with any CULTS in the past?

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Erundur

This is false, since Mormons do in fact have faith the Christ's blood saves us, so 1 & 2 fail.
You say we believe our works are required for salvation, but then quote requirements for exaltation, so that doesn't work.

It works because you're trying to pull the wool over my eyes, but this Grandma has been around the block a few times. LDS speak of two salvations. You call resurrection salvation when you want to mislead people. But resurrection doesn't guarantee anyone eternal life in the presence of the Mormon godhead.

And the Bible tells us of only two resurrections: one to eternal life and one to ****ation.

Originally Posted by Erundur

But it sounds like you want to rewrite the syllogism to something like:

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus, plus not believing that any of your own works (like repentance, baptism, or obeying God's commandments) are required.

How can something be required for salvation if you've already received it? How can you have peace with God if you haven't been saved by God's grace through faith, not of works?

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

God's word is beautiful and full of ***urances. We become His children and He protects us from the evil one.

Originally Posted by Erundur

Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, but believe that their own works (like repentance, baptism, and obeying God's commandments) are required.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons do not have salvation by God's grace.

Grace doesn't have to be earned as Mormons think. If you believed the Bible, you would know that keeping some of the commandments won't save, and that occult rituals and promises are going to lessen your trust in God and cause you to trust yourself and your own efforts more than you did before. But even Mormons can have their eyes opened; it's harder though when they're stuck shut.

I love Mormons and I'm so happy for those who break away and learn that Jesus does the saving just as the Apostle Paul learned!

Love in Christ,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You are correct.

You also seem to have a great deal more understandings of the Mormon CULT that the average person...

You have had dealings with any CULTS in the past?

Yep. 'Nuff said.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I see your point, and it look like a good one. it's like this:

suppose an anti-mormon believes that the recipe for apple pie is apples, flour, sugar, water, and shortening.

and a mormon adds all those ingredients together--plus cinnamon--and bakes it.

and then the anti-mormon says "that is not a true apple pie, because you added an ingredient that is not in the recipe i use."

so the mormon asks: "didn't i use all the ingredients in your recipe? so what if i believe that there should one more ingredient than you believe there should be--isn't it still an apple pie?"

Making a pie is a lot different than being given an already baked pie! I like the one God made; it's so much BETTER than my own!

[chuckt]

Originally Posted by Erundur

That's possible, since we believe in Jesus Christ. So would something like this be more accurate?

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of some Jesus other than Jesus Christ.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons do not have salvation by God's grace.

The Holy Spirit comes to convict the world. Why? Because they believe not on "me" (Jesus).

John 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

We have one group that doesn't believe on Jesus. The other group believes on Jesus and they have the power to become the sons of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

And then there is a group that says, "We preached in your name", etc. Jesus says that he never ever knew them and it is emphatic in the Greek. If you believed on his name, you have the right to become the sons of God and there is a group that preaches, does miracles, etc, in Jesus' name and God says, "Depart from me, I never ever knew you."

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So what is the original promise for eternal life? It is John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:31-32 (approximate). Let's look at John 3:16

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The promise of eternal life is to those who believe in Jesus so we have to make sure we believe in the right Jesus to have this promise. To believe in Him gives us the right to become the sons of God and if we become the sons of God then I have to take it one step further and ***ume that we can know Him. If we believe in someone else then pick another name but don't confuse him with Jesus and his promises. If I believe in Stan or Joe then does God have to keep this promise? No.

And I'm not saying that we can lose eternal life. That isn't what I believe but I am thinking of the great apostasy in the end times.

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Is it good enough to say that I believe in Jesus and that he isn't Lord of my life? 2 Timothy indicates there will be believers that have a form of godliness but deny the power. Romans 1 says the gospel is the power of God so maybe they are missing the gospel. What is the gospel? Turn to 1 Corinthians 15:1-11. One pastor believes that without preaching Jesus rose from the grave, it isn't the gospel. So how else would we deny the power? By not trusting Jesus to catch you from entering Hell. When we trust in our works, grace is no more grace and we're putting our trust in our works instead of His. Another interesting thing is that the sacrificial system was given because we couldn't keep the works of the law so if we're trusting in works, the law was nothing we could keep anyway.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Grace is an unmerited gift and when we trust in our works, grace is no more grace.

As far as the James 2:20 argument goes, I spent years I think people are teaching it wrong. I spent years trying to figure it out and I wrote twenty pages on why I think it is misunderstood and one of these days I'll try to get it into a Kindle E-Book... I spent twenty pages trying to get it into a format that people can understand and people have followed me around on the internet looking for it but when I'm ready, I'll publish it when I'm ready if I get the chance, Lord willing.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Grandma

It works because you're trying to pull the wool over my eyes, but this Grandma has been around the block a few times. LDS speak of two salvations. You call resurrection salvation when you want to mislead people. But resurrection doesn't guarantee anyone eternal life in the presence of the Mormon godhead.

That's false. This is what happens when you only listen to anti-Mormon propaganda.

How can something be required for salvation if you've already received it? How can you have peace with God if you haven't been saved by God's grace through faith, not of works?

So it's not required after all? Then we're back to the original syllogism:

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons have salvation by God's grace.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

I see your point, and it look like a good one. it's like this:

suppose an anti-mormon believes that the recipe for apple pie is apples, flour, sugar, water, and shortening.

and a mormon adds all those ingredients together--plus cinnamon--and bakes it.

and then the anti-mormon says "that is not a true apple pie, because you added an ingredient that is not in the recipe i use."

so the mormon asks: "didn't i use all the ingredients in your recipe? so what if i believe that there should one more ingredient than you believe there should be--isn't it still an apple pie?"

That's a good ****ogy, and at this point the anti-Mormon needs to explain how the presence of cinnamon makes it NOT an apple pie.

[Phoenix]

the false statements will be colored red, and the straw man fallacies will be colored blue. calvinistic heresies will be bolded.

Originally Posted by Grandma

It works because you're trying to pull the wool over my eyes, but this Grandma has been around the block a few times. LDS speak of two salvations. You call resurrection salvation when you want to mislead people.

But resurrection doesn't guarantee anyone eternal life in the presence of the Mormon godhead.
And the Bible tells us of only two resurrections: one to eternal life and one to ****ation.

How can something be required for salvation if you've already received it? How can you have peace with God if you haven't been saved by God's grace through faith, not of works?
Grace doesn't have to be earned as Mormons think. If you believed the Bible, you would know that keeping some of the commandments won't save, and that occult rituals and promises are going to lessen your trust in God and cause you to trust yourself and your own efforts more than you did before. But even Mormons can have their eyes opened; it's harder though when they're stuck shut.

granny is showing her claws. maybe she isn't really grandma, but the big bad wolf in disguise.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Making a pie is a lot different than being given an already baked pie!

not if the pie someone handed you is a cow pie.

I like the one God made; it's so much BETTER than my own!

you are showing evasiveness. your original mantra was the equivalent of saying that an apple pie that has cinnamon added is suddenly no longer a pie.

if mormons confess with their lips and believe in their hearts that jesus is the christ, then they should end up being saved, even if they "mistakenly" did a whole bunch of charity work, and tried to abstain from drugs, smokes, and alcohol.

they will be saved "despite" believing in christ AND trying to obey him.

do you really think that on judgment day, christ will look at you and say "well done, good and faithful servant! you believed in me and that's all. you get eternal life!" and then he will turn to the mormon and say "you believed in me, PLUS you went and donated to charity, and obeyed a bunch of my commandments! BAD mormon! go to hell! do not p*** go! do not collect $200!" ?

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Erundur

That's false. This is what happens when you only listen to anti-Mormon propaganda.

No, I told the TRUTH. Do you want me to prove it? Do you want me to go into detail? It seems you don't know very much about Mormonism.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

not if the pie someone handed you is a cow pie.

I've tasted the pie!

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.
Psalm 34:8

Originally Posted by Phoenix

you are showing evasiveness. your original mantra was the equivalent of saying that an apple pie that has cinnamon added is suddenly no longer a pie.

No, if I already know my Savior and His gospel, I don't need what you offer. Mormonism adds false ideas, requirements, and commands to the Gospel of Christ. It tells you to trust that a certain man is speaking for God. I'm following Jesus. I'm extremely happy about that and I will spend eternity with Him.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

if mormons confess with their lips and believe in their hearts that jesus is the christ, then they should end up being saved, even if they "mistakenly" did a whole bunch of charity work, and tried to abstain from drugs, smokes, and alcohol.

they will be saved "despite" believing in christ AND trying to obey him.

Nice thought, but it won't work.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

do you really think that on judgment day, christ will look at you and say "well done, good and faithful servant! you believed in me and that's all. you get eternal life!" and then he will turn to the mormon and say "you believed in me, PLUS you went and donated to charity, and obeyed a bunch of my commandments! BAD mormon! go to hell! do not p*** go! do not collect $200!" ?

He might say to the Mormon, "You claimed to believe in me, then you went out and spread your false teachings. You told people who loved and worshipped me that unless they were rebaptized, paid ***hes to YOUR church, didn't drink coffee or tea, accepted every calling from the bishop, they would end up in a lower kingdom and be barred from the church of the Firstborn in a celestial kingdom."

Are there any Christians outside the Mormon church?

In Christian love,

Grandma

I love Mormons!

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Grandma

No, I told the TRUTH.

No, you falsely accused me.

Do you want me to prove it? Do you want me to go into detail?

Yes, I want you to prove your accusations.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

not if the pie someone handed you is a cow pie.

Originally Posted by Grandma

I've tasted the pie!

Eww.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Grandma

I've tasted the pie!

I am not stopping you from liking the taste of your pie. i am pointing out the flaw in your claim about recipes, and the flaw is this:

you say "to make an apple pie, mix these 5 ingredients (in reality, one ingredient--faith alone). everyone who mixes those ingredients will end up with an apple pie on Baking Day."

but when a mormon says "i mixed those ingredients. plus one more.that doesn't make my pie a NON-apple pie" then you backtrack on what you said. that is the flaw.

here is another ****ogy: you say that to make a car, you must have a body, wheels, an engine, and a transmission. you say that everyone who puts those parts together, has a car. but when a mormon ***embles the parts on your list and adds a radio, you tell the mormon "that's not a car. it's a false car, a car that cannot get you anywhere." which contradicts what you said earlier.

No, if I already know my Savior and His gospel, I don't need what you offer.

irrelevant. everything you said in that sentence could be 100% correct, but it has nothing to do with you telling the mormons that their pie isn't an apple pie, or their car isn't a car.

Mormonism adds false ideas, requirements, and commands to the Gospel of Christ.

anti-mormonism does that like crazy: in addition to "believe in Jesus Christ" you add "oh, and also the trinity--if you don't also accept THAT ingredient, you can't be saved. oh, and also you must abstain from believing in continued prophets and apostles and continued scriptures, or you can't be saved."

It tells you to trust that a certain man is speaking for God.

doesn't your "ism" tell you to trust that Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, and Paul were speaking for God?
if it doesn't tell you to believe that, then you are in a bad church.

I'm following Jesus. I'm extremely happy about that and I will spend eternity with Him.

again, you are avoiding the issue, which was your refusal to allow mormons to be happy about their following your recipe which they have added an important ingredient to.

if all you wanted was to be happy about your own beliefs, then you wouldn't be here attacking other people's beliefs. the fact is that you are UNhappy about other people's beliefs, even though those people are including every ingredient that is in your own recipe.

you hate the pie that the mormons baked, even though they didn't leave out any of the ingredients that you put into your own pie that makes you so "happy."

Are there any Christians outside the Mormon church?

of course. there are probably a billion of them.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Erundur

That's false. This is what happens when you only listen to anti-Mormon propaganda.

I'm not listening to anti-Mormon propaganda. I do almost all my research at lds.org. Is that a reliable site?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Originally Posted by Grandma

I see several flaws.

1. - 2. Mormons do not have faith that Christ's blood saves us to spend eternity with God; they teach that salvation along with all other blessings must be earned.

3. Mormons believe that their own works are required for salvation.

This is false, since Mormons do in fact have faith the Christ's blood saves us, so 1 & 2 fail.


You say we believe our works are required for salvation, but then quote requirements for exaltation, so that doesn't work.

But it sounds like you want to rewrite the syllogism to something like:

Premise 1: Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the blood of Jesus, plus not believing that any of your own works (like repentance, baptism, or obeying God's commandments) are required.
Premise 2: Mormons have faith in the blood of Jesus, but believe that their own works (like repentance, baptism, and obeying God's commandments) are required.
Conclusion: Therefore, Mormons do not have salvation by God's grace.

In Mormonism all people will be resurrected. In the Bible, resurrection and eternal life are not synonymous. Eternal life is salvation.

How can a person be saved according to LDS teachings?

Answer: 1. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

What is your point? Christians have love. And I'm very familiar with 1 Corinthians Chapter 13,


In Christian Love,

Grandma

Now wait a minute...
Didn't you just say this...

Originally Posted by Grandma

Mormons ignore the Gospel and add oodles of requirements for salvation that were dreamed up by Joseph Smith; those requirements contradict the Bible.
In Christian love,
Grandma

And then you went on to list a few of those "unbiblical requirements" which Mormons "add on"

Originally Posted by Grandma

Requirements for Exaltation ...

. Love and worship God.
. Love our neighbor.

So please explain how Love in your theology has anything to do with being a Christian, seeing as though you believe love to be a man made requirement which contradicts the Bible?

In Christian LOVE,

The Way

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Grandma

I'm not listening to anti-Mormon propaganda. I do almost all my research at lds.org.

Is that where you got your claim that "You call resurrection salvation when you want to mislead people."?

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Grandma

In Mormonism all people will be resurrected.

Right, just as the Bible teaches. Who will not be resurrected in Protestantism?

In the Bible, resurrection and eternal life are not synonymous.

Did someone suggest that they were?

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

Now wait a minute...
Didn't you just say this...


And then you went on to list a few of those "unbiblical requirements" which Mormons "add on"



So please explain how Love in your theology has anything to do with being a Christian, seeing as though you believe love to be a man made requirement which contradicts the Bible?

In Christian LOVE,

The Way

Mormons believe parts of the Bible, do they not? Do they believe there are requirements for eternal life that are not in the Bible?

In Christian LOVE,

Grandma