Are there any Christians outside the Mormon church?

[Saxon]

More drivel. What has Bigfoot got to do with the Bible? You are not supporting you false theory from the Bible because there is no support for it in the Bible.

[alanmolstad]

Bigfoot is connected to this issue due to the fact that its the same type of mindset that some people have , for just as some people simply "believe" in Bigfoot regardless of the lack of support for it being real, so too do some people simply chose to "believe" that a christian can lose their salvation regardless of the fact that they can't actually point to a single case of this happening in the bible!

Not a single case!

Not a single name!


And just like with people who chose to believe in Bigfoot this lack of real support for their belief means? .......it means nothing to them. ...

It simply means nothing to them because they are way, way , past caring to support what they believe with facts.





A side note:

On a side note, the reason this issue is of importance is that the same people that believe they can lose their salvation become the very same people that false teachers feed on and fill their heads with all kinds of other false teachings that truly get people mixed up.

So it's not just this one issue that the problem, its the fact that once a false teacher has convinced a follower that they can lose their salvation, "unless" they keep doing some type of "works' you then can also convince these poor people that only via turning to these same false teachers can you learn what 'works" you need to keep doing to "stay saved"

And once that happens?.........once that happens you have yourself a true CULT.


This is how CULTS can maintain a firm grip on their members.
Not via love and trust, but rather on the power they have over their members who are consumed with the fear that unless they remain within and under the CULT'S authority they will not know what "works" to perform to remain saved.....


This forms a life-long dependence on the CULT....

The CULT gets a follower that will never dare look outside the CULT for truth,,,,,
and on other hand the CULT member never truly feels that they are good enough to be truly permanently 'saved"

All the member of a CULT can feel is that if they keep working hard for the CULT and do all they can do, then they get to "hope" this will be "good enough" to be saved.....



So while we like to say that "all CULTS teach a form of Works salvation" to their members, the real truth is that CULTS only teach a way to be 'almost saved" via works....

You can be 'almost saved"......

you can feel "almost" saved if you continue performing works for the CULT....

Almost good enough to be saved.....

Almost good enough to rest....almost ..........but just almost....





It's always just "almost".....

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Those virgins missed the boat because they weren't born again.

Thats not true!
If you don't believe me, go read a good (non Calvinist) commentary on the verses.
Then read it again... The very fact that they were called a virgin meant that they were part of His Church... In other words, A CHRISTIAN. They were even invited to the wedding feast, and ALL of the 10 virgins were waiting for the Bridegroom's coming. All 10 would have had enough oil and would have been let in to the wedding feast or Heaven had the Bridegroom of come on time. Yet All the 10 Virgins were expected to fill up their own lamp with enough oil in case he didn't. They did not get their oil from the Bridegroom nor could they borrow it from someone else.
You simply do not understand the Bible, or you refuse to accept what you know to be true because you only want to obey God to a certain point, and no more!

You are like one of the foolish 5 Virgins who will not be prepared for the Lord's coming because you believe simply being invited was enough.
If you do not repent now, and go fill up your lamp with oil while there may still be time before it is too late... You will be turned away at the gates.

Now your next reading ***ignment which talks against OSAS is the "Parable of the Sower".
Read it, and then come back and give us your understanding of it.

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the Martin stuff happens around the 3:01 point of the video...
check it out and then come back to the discussion with any questions you have about what is on the video....

LOL.... I don't know why you would think that someone like Walter Martin's opinions on God would be of any interest to me, even if for only the entertainment value. The guy does not know or understand anything about the gospel of Jesus Christ, the bible, or the Mormon Church. His own writings contradict themselves! He states that we are saved by Faith Alone, and then he'll state that we are NOT saved by faith alone.
I listen to a lot of non-Mormon Theologians, even ones I don't agree with. However I wouldn't even waste my time with Walter Martin, even if I could skip 3:01 minutes of his rant.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

I have no heretical theories of the Gospel that Christ brought. God is our Holy Creator. Do you think you should revere Him or accuse Him? Doesn't the potter have the right to make some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? Can one jar go on the counter for compost?

You mean can the Potter make one jar to be bad, and another to be good? Of course He can! However, you can not call such a Potter, "a creator of good pottery" because he makes both bad and good jars. Likewise your God has the right to create some people to do evil and then punish them forever; and then create some to recieve endless rewards and goodness ... However you could never call such a God a God of Fairness, Mercy or Righteous, as He creates and promotes both evil and good.

Originally Posted by Grandma

Is your god restricted from changing a person's heart?

My question was NOT whether my God was "restricted from changing one's heart" but "what would be the point of changing one's heart?" If it makes no difference and changes nothing under your beliefs whether I or anyone else's heart is changed?

Originally Posted by Grandma

I praise God for that! Do you think He's being wicked and shoving the new birth on you against your will --- just because a man named Joseph Smith claimed that was Lucifer's plan. I've never met anyone who is angry about being born again.

Jeremiah 18:6
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, "Why have you made me like this?"

Not only should you ask, but it is imperative that you do find out to what purpose God has created you, and then live up fully to that purpose. If you are the one who God greater to do evil, then you need to find that out and be as evil as possible. That is the whole point of the gospel, to find your potential and live up to it!
Your misapplying of scripture and the heresies of men do not impress me.

Originally Posted by Grandma

God doesn't drag us kicking and screaming into heaven. He changes our will to doing His will.

But under your "God does it all" theory, the only way a person could win the salvation lottery, is by being dragged against their will, kicking and screaming. Even your own fellow "God does it all" believers will admit to that... It seems you need to go back and huddle up with them to get your stories straight.

[Saxon]

Bigfoot is connected to this issue due to the fact that its the same type of mindset that some people have , for just as some people simply "believe" in Bigfoot regardless of the lack of support for it being real, so too do some people simply chose to "believe" that a christian can lose their salvation regardless of the fact that they can't actually point to a single case of this happening in the bible!

Not a single case!

Not a single name!

That describes the mindset of those that are believers in OSAS. There is not one mention that once you are saved you are always saved. Not a single case!! There is nothing that even hints at OSAS anywhere!

And just like with people who chose to believe in Bigfoot this lack of real support for their belief means? .......it means nothing to them. ...

It simply means nothing to them because they are way, way , past caring to support what they believe with facts.

That is what I think of a person believing in OSAS, no scriptural support no problem just keep saying it until people are bullied into believing that it is true even though it isn’t.

A side note:

On a side note, the reason this issue is of importance is that the same people that believe they can lose their salvation become the very same people that false teachers feed on and fill their heads with all kinds of other false teachings that truly get people mixed up.

So it's not just this one issue that the problem, its the fact that once a false teacher has convinced a follower that they can lose their salvation, "unless" they keep doing some type of "works' you then can also convince these poor people that only via turning to these same false teachers can you learn what 'works" you need to keep doing to "stay saved"

And once that happens?.........once that happens you have yourself a true CULT.


This is how CULTS can maintain a firm grip on their members.
Not via love and trust, but rather on the power they have over their members who are consumed with the fear that unless they remain within and under the CULT'S authority they will not know what "works" to perform to remain saved.....


This forms a life-long dependence on the CULT....

The CULT gets a follower that will never dare look outside the CULT for truth,,,,,
and on other hand the CULT member never truly feels that they are good enough to be truly permanently 'saved"

All the member of a CULT can feel is that if they keep working hard for the CULT and do all they can do, then they get to "hope" this will be "good enough" to be saved.....



So while we like to say that "all CULTS teach a form of Works salvation" to their members, the real truth is that CULTS only teach a way to be 'almost saved" via works....

You can be 'almost saved"......

you can feel "almost" saved if you continue performing works for the CULT....

Almost good enough to be saved.....

Almost good enough to rest....almost ..........but just almost....





It's always just "almost".....

You have said nothing that scripturally supports OSAS. Prove from the Bible that OSAS is scriptural as you were the one that brought it up. Stick to the subject. Now don’t wimp out by repeating you useless statement.

[Saxon]

No one will satisfy you because you are so hooked on OSAS that you can't get p***ed the idea that OSAS is right so no born again Christian can loose salvation in spite of the mul***ude of examples in the Old and New testaments that are thoroughly contrary to the nonsense of OSAS.

[Christian]

A BETTER question would be 'are there any Christians IN the mormon religion!

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

A BETTER question would be 'are there any Christians IN the mormon religion!

Better for who?
Mormons already know we are Christians, ergo, there are Christians IN the Mormon Church, so it is not a question for us to try and resolve....
It appears that the only ones having an issue with this question are extreme Evangelicals, who always concern themselves more with the sins and judging of other people, more than their own.

[Grandma]

This site sometimes posts duplicates.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Christian

A BETTER question would be 'are there any Christians IN the mormon religion!

Go post to your own thread rather than attempt to disrupt this one! This one has a purpose that you are unable to see.

Thank you.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Saxon

[B]

Demas. He is listed with Luke in a greeting (See Colossians 4:14). He has forsaken Paul, having loved this present world (See 2 Timothy 4:10). He is listed as one of Paul's fellow labourers (See Philemon 1:24). James 4:4 states it clearly that the friendship of the world is enmity with God, and Demas LOVED the world.

Don't tell me that Demas wasn't saved because there is no evidence that he was not. All you have going for you is the circular reasoning of OSAS.

Colossians 4:14 Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you.

2 Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, ***us unto Dalmatia

Philemon 1:24 Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

The Bible(IOW the word of God), the omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, the character of God, and logic tell us that salvation cannot be lost.

Those who have been born again (by God, impossible by men) were given to Christ by the Father.

John 6 NIV
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life..."

God knows everything including those who belong to Christ.

John 10
1 "Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, "Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

What is a shepherd's ***? To care for the sheep. Can Jesus do that?

This says something about the sheep:

John 10:4-5
"When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

John 10:28 NIV
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."


"...whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

That's right!

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

John 17
6 “I have revealed youa to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

May God's words of ***urance to believers bless you.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Saxon

[/B].

How does that prove that you can't lose salvation?



[/B]

Where does the Bible say that you can't "undo it"? It isn't Hebrews 3:12.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Hypocrites don't endure to the end. Your argument doesn't belong in this thread. If you want to argue Arminianism against Calvinism, why not go to the appropriate forum? I also suggest that you follow the Bible's instructions on how to treat brothers and sisters in Christ --- please.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Saxon]

Hypocrites don't endure to the end. Your argument doesn't belong in this thread. If you want to argue Arminianism against Calvinism, why not go to the appropriate forum? I also suggest that you follow the Bible's instructions on how to treat brothers and sisters in Christ --- please.

In Christian love,

Grandma

Hypocrites don't endure to the end. That is a true statement. The question is when did the hypocrisy set in? Was it before the person decided to “play” Christian, or sometime after committing to Christ and a Christian life.

The topic became integral to this thread when a respondent had declared that he was secure for ever and would not be able to lose salvation. I hope that you will instruct others as to what is appropriate for this thread.

What are the specific instructions from the Bible that you would you like me to pay attention to?

[Christian]

Way posted:

Better for who?
Mormons already know we are Christians, ergo, there are Christians IN the Mormon Church, so it is not a question for us to try and resolve....

I'm merely pointing out that mormon 'christianity' is a pathetic joke and that you are no more 'christians' than ducks. The TRUTH is that your religion (invented by joey smith in the 1800's) IS NOT the Christianity that is about 2,000 years old now. Your own 'prophet' (who cannot of course, prophesy) has said so.

In the 1970's mormons refused TO BE CALLED CHRISTIANS. They would tell you, "No, we are NOT Christians. . .we are mormons."

Now days mormon folks seem to want to appear to be more 'mainstream.'

It appears that the only ones having an issue with this question are extreme Evangelicals, who always concern themselves more with the sins and judging of other people, more than their own.

You mean the Evangelical CHRISTIANS, of course. . .

As to your own misinterpretation of what we concern ourselves with. . .that's YOUR problem

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

In the 1970's mormons refused TO BE CALLED CHRISTIANS. They would tell you, "No, we are NOT Christians. . .we are mormons."

Thank you for giving us the time frame and for using quotation marks. I ***ume then that you have the exact quote, so please produce it! Otherwise you will be left exposed for what you truely are.

Originally Posted by Christian

Now days mormon folks seem to want to appear to be more 'mainstream.'

LOL.... Actually I've found the opposite to be true, Those who call themselves Christian are trying to be more like the Mormons.

Originally Posted by Christian

You mean the Evangelical CHRISTIANS, of course. . .

That is only true if you want to include Televangelists who are almost exclusively Evangelical.... Did you mean to include them?

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

In the 1970's mormons refused TO BE CALLED CHRISTIANS. They would tell you, "No, we are NOT Christians. . .we are mormons."

I'm issuing a CFR on this claim.

[Saxon]

The Bible(IOW the word of God), the omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, the character of God, and logic tell us that salvation cannot be lost.

The omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, and the character of God has nothing to do with proof of OSAS. The flawed logic of man is all that pushes for OSAS. There is nothing in your above statement that indicates that OSAS is from the Bible, nothing.

Those who have been born again (by God, impossible by men) were given to Christ by the Father.

John 6 NIV
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

41 At this the Jews there began to grumble about him because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, ‘I came down from heaven’?”

43 “Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. 44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life..."

God knows everything including those who belong to Christ.

John 10
1 "Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.” 6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.

7 Therefore Jesus said again, "Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them. 9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. They will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

What is a shepherd's ***? To care for the sheep. Can Jesus do that?

This says something about the sheep:

John 10:4-5
"When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

John 10:28 NIV
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."


"...whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God."

That's right!

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

John 17
6 “I have revealed youa to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

May God's words of ***urance to believers bless you.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

In all the above quotes you still have not pointed out that OSAS is a Bible supported doctrine. Listing verses that state that God will never leave or forsake us does not indicate that OSAS is true. It is true that God will not leave or forsake us. You seem to want to believe that if a saved person departs from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12) that it is somehow to be God’s fault. Get over it. It will be the person’s own fault if he or she departs from the living God. Jesus will not leave us; it is us that leave him. Remember that it is impossible to leave where you have never been.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by =Saxon

The omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, and the character of God has nothing to do with proof of OSAS. The flawed logic of man is all that pushes for OSAS. There is nothing in your above statement that indicates that OSAS is from the Bible, nothing.

In all the above quotes you still have not pointed out that OSAS is a Bible supported doctrine. Listing verses that state that God will never leave or forsake us does not indicate that OSAS is true. It is true that God will not leave or forsake us. You seem to want to believe that if a saved person departs from the living God (See Hebrews 3:12) that it is somehow to be God’s fault. Get over it. It will be the person’s own fault if he or she departs from the living God. Jesus will not leave us; it is us that leave him. Remember that it is impossible to leave where you have never been.

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Romans 5:1-11, Romans 8:18-39, John 6:39-40, 44, John 10:25-30, Heb. 7:25. You can argue till the cows come home or Christ returns, but He is not a careless shepherd. If He loses one of the sheep, He's not who He says He is!


"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." This is a warning to those who have evil hearts of unbelief.

Mark 4
1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great mul***ude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole mul***ude was by the sea on the land. 2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4 And it came to p***, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. 9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

"And other fell on good ground and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred."

True believers hold firm to their confidence until the end.


1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Faith is a gift that God gives and doesn't snatch away.

1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


The Bible (IOW the word of God), the omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, the character of God, and logic tell us that salvation cannot be lost.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000FF]
In the 1970's mormons refused TO BE CALLED CHRISTIANS. They would tell you, "No, we are NOT Christians. . .we are mormons."

In the seventies, Mormons told me, "Of course, we're Christians! The name of our Church is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." I don't see how that proves a person's Christianity. Maybe what they claimed they were depended on the Mormon.

[Saxon]

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Romans 5:1-11, Romans 8:18-39, John 6:39-40, 44, John 10:25-30, Heb. 7:25. You can argue till the cows come home or Christ returns, but He is not a careless shepherd. If He loses one of the sheep, He's not who He says He is!

You are on a different subject. Ezekiel has something to say about once righteous always righteous. It is the same as once saved always saved; no such thing supported in the Bible. He won't lose his sheep, he has clearly stated that. The sheep tend to wonder off of their own accord. Don't blame Jesus.

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Romans 5:1-11 says a total nothing about OSAS.

Romans 8:18-39 says a total nothing about OSAS. The fact that nothing can separate us from the love of God does not speak or OSAS, after all God loved us while were were still in our sins and sent Jesus to die for the lost. If one departs from the living God we are not to ***ume that God would stop loving us.

John 6:39-40 says a total nothing about OSAS. As I said before, Jesus will lose nothing, it is us that are departing from the living God. You seem to think that God is somehow to be blamed if someone departs from the living God. Get over it. The fault is exclusively our own.

Everlasting life (eternal life) always was, always is and always will be. This life is ONLY in Christ. If you receive eternal life you have not change eternal life one bit. If you stay in Christ and eternal life you have not change eternal life one bit. If you depart from Christ and eternal life you have not change eternal life one bit. The eternal life in which you now stand is not dependent upon you if you stay in Christ or depart from Christ, eternal life is always eternal.

John 10:25-30 says a total nothing about OSAS. If you keep the context you will see that the story of the LOST SHEEP tells a different story of a sheep that departed from the good shepherd. The sheep got lost! No one can pluck us out of God’s hand but we do tend to wander off. If we are not returned to the fold we become a lion’s dinner.

Heb. 7:25 says a total nothing about OSAS. That is how he keeps us, but if we depart from the living God of our own accord, that is us leaving him, not him leaving us.

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." This is a warning to those who have evil hearts of unbelief.

Can a person that is not in Christ depart from Christ? The answer is easy; NO!

Mark 4
1 And he began again to teach by the sea side: and there was gathered unto him a great mul***ude, so that he entered into a ship, and sat in the sea; and the whole mul***ude was by the sea on the land. 2 And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine, 3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow: 4 And it came to p***, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up. 5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth: 6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away. 7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit. 8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. 9 And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

That is all well but you do not want to see what Jesus said about the stony ground. Mark 4:16 said that they that heard the word receive it with gladness and Mark 4:17 says that they endured for a time and were then offended by affliction and persecution. Luke 8:13 is the same story but it is more clear that they believed and in a time of temptation they FELL AWAY. You can’t fall away from where you have not been.

Mark 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mark 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

"And other fell on good ground and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred."

True believers hold firm to their confidence until the end.

When Jesus said that they believed are you going to say that they were not believers?

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Faith is a gift that God gives and doesn't snatch away.

There you go again, trying to blame God for a person’s own doing.

1 Corinthians 15:57
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Amen, but no OSAS here either.

The Bible (IOW the word of God), the omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, the character of God, and logic tell us that salvation cannot be lost.

The omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, and the character of God has nothing to do with proof of OSAS. The flawed logic of man is all that pushes for OSAS. There is nothing in your above statement that indicates that OSAS is from the Bible, nothing.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Saxon

You are on a different subject. Ezekiel has something to say about once righteous always righteous. It is the same as once saved always saved; no such thing supported in the Bible. He won't lose his sheep, he has clearly stated that. The sheep tend to wonder off of their own accord. Don't blame Jesus.

Ezekiel 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumbling-block before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ezekiel 18:21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Ezekiel 18:22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
Ezekiel 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his tresp*** that he hath tresp***ed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Romans 5:1-11 says a total nothing about OSAS.

Romans 8:18-39 says a total nothing about OSAS. The fact that nothing can separate us from the love of God does not speak or OSAS, after all God loved us while were were still in our sins and sent Jesus to die for the lost. If one departs from the living God we are not to ***ume that God would stop loving us.

John 6:39-40 says a total nothing about OSAS. As I said before, Jesus will lose nothing, it is us that are departing from the living God. You seem to think that God is somehow to be blamed if someone departs from the living God. Get over it. The fault is exclusively our own.

Everlasting life (eternal life) always was, always is and always will be. This life is ONLY in Christ. If you receive eternal life you have not change eternal life one bit. If you stay in Christ and eternal life you have not change eternal life one bit. If you depart from Christ and eternal life you have not change eternal life one bit. The eternal life in which you now stand is not dependent upon you if you stay in Christ or depart from Christ, eternal life is always eternal.

John 10:25-30 says a total nothing about OSAS. If you keep the context you will see that the story of the LOST SHEEP tells a different story of a sheep that departed from the good shepherd. The sheep got lost! No one can pluck us out of God’s hand but we do tend to wander off. If we are not returned to the fold we become a lion’s dinner.

Heb. 7:25 says a total nothing about OSAS. That is how he keeps us, but if we depart from the living God of our own accord, that is us leaving him, not him leaving us.

Can a person that is not in Christ depart from Christ? The answer is easy; NO!

That is all well but you do not want to see what Jesus said about the stony ground. Mark 4:16 said that they that heard the word receive it with gladness and Mark 4:17 says that they endured for a time and were then offended by affliction and persecution. Luke 8:13 is the same story but it is more clear that they believed and in a time of temptation they FELL AWAY. You can’t fall away from where you have not been.

Mark 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mark 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

When Jesus said that they believed are you going to say that they were not believers?

There you go again, trying to blame God for a person’s own doing.

Amen, but no OSAS here either.

The omnipotence of God, the omniscience of God, and the character of God has nothing to do with proof of OSAS. The flawed logic of man is all that pushes for OSAS. There is nothing in your above statement that indicates that OSAS is from the Bible, nothing.

Don't blame Jesus? For what? For being the best Shepherd there ever was or ever will be? He takes care of His sheep. I proved it from God's word, but you don't want me to give Him the credit.

"There you go again, trying to blame God for a person’s own doing." I don't blame God for anything! I have nothing but praise and thanksgiving for all that He does.

Those who believe for only a short while are not His sheep.

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

You are now on my ignore list because you won't accept God's word yet you want to argue forever; your argurnents are not biblical. If and when your heart softens, we can communicate.

Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In Christian Love and with my prayers,

Grandma

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Originally Posted by ChristianIn the 1970's mormons refused TO BE CALLED CHRISTIANS. They would tell you, "No, we are NOT Christians. . .we are mormons."

I'm issuing a CFR on this claim.

What is a CFR?

That's what my mormon neighbors told me in Pocatello, Idaho in 1973 (SEVERAL of them did).

What's your complaint?

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Christian

What is a CFR?

That's what my mormon neighbors told me in Pocatello, Idaho in 1973 (SEVERAL of them did).

What's your complaint?

I believe you! Mormons don't all have the same answers.

[Saxon]

Don't blame Jesus? For what? For being the best Shepherd there ever was or ever will be? He takes care of His sheep. I proved it from God's word, but you don't want me to give Him the credit.

Every time I mention someone wandering off from Jesus you come back with Jesus somehow involved with a decision that he didn’t make.

You still haven’t accounted for the parable of the LOST sheep. How did the sheep get lost? Did the shepherd ignore the flock? No. Did the shepherd toss the sheep out of the flock? No. The sheep took it upon itself to wander off. You would rather cling to the fairy tail of OSAS than the truth of the Bible. Yes I want to give him credit but I won’t credit him for what he hasn’t promised.

"There you go again, trying to blame God for a person’s own doing." I don't blame God for anything! I have nothing but praise and thanksgiving for all that He does.

Every time I mention someone wandering off from Jesus you come back with Jesus somehow involved with a decision that he didn’t make.

Those who believe for only a short while are not His sheep.

Where did you get that? Is there a trial period before a believer is a believer? Where in Acts 16: 30 and 31 is there any mention of a trial period? This is just more smoke and mirrors.

Acts 16: 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
Acts 16: 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

You are now on my ignore list because you won't accept God's word yet you want to argue forever; your argurnents are not biblical. If and when your heart softens, we can communicate.

Why waist your time putting me on your ignore list, you have been doing a good *** ignoring me as it is. For the most part you don’t comment on what I have stated to even try to show me the error of my way and the one or two times that you did, all you do is shoot yourself in the foot.

The “short time believers” is totally bogus and definitely not a Bible teaching. Then the “"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God." This is a warning to those who have evil hearts of unbelief“ is silly. It is a warning to believers about DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD, because of unbelief. Read the context.

At least I get my arguments from the Bible where as you are getting yours from your “logic”.

Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Explain how Ezekiel 36 and Romans 8:9 says anything about OSAS.

In Christian Love and with my prayers,

Grandma

Don’t give up before you get started.