Mormons are 'christians. . .' they follow 'a' christ.

[MickeyS]

mickey posted:

The scriptures use different terms to describe how we are sons & daughters of God & Jesus Christ

We are all literal spirit children of Heavenly Father
Acts 17:29 - We are offspring of God

Adopted, of course. . .He is CLEARLY NOT TALKING about 'spiritual babies

It's actually NOT clear since that's not what offspring means. The remainder of your comment was [snipped] due to unnecessary language (there are much more mature ways to present your ideas)

So wait a minute...first you told childofgod that "begotten" doesn't mean "offspring", now you're saying "offspring" doesn't mean "offspring" And from your comments below, if you don't believe words or concepts have multiple meanings in the Bible, then how can you adopt your own offspring?

Hebrews 12:9 - Be in subjection unto the Father of spirits

We are "adopted" children born again through the Atonement
John 1:12 - As many as received him gave he power to become the sons of God

Which OF COURSE indicates that they are GIVEN THE POWER TO BECOME the sons of God, THEY AREN'T THAT WAY BEFORE THEN. The Atonement of JESUS CHRIST (THE REAL ONE) paid for them

But they are

I know it can be confusing, but the Bible does use words in multiple ways .... For example

The word "glory"
Splendor - Matthew 6:29 "....Solomon in all his glory..."
Praise - Acts 12:23 "...he did not give God the glory..."
Brightness - 2Corinthians 3:7 "the glory of Moses's face"
Heaven - 1Timothy 3:16 "...taken up in glory..."

Sorry, but your 1 Timothy p***age says no such thing. IT says:

1 Tim 3:16
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:


God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.
NKJV

Jesus was received up in glory alright, but NOT "INTO" glory. He was taken up in SPLENDER, and BEAUTY (Glory)
Your claim that it is referring to heaven is bogus.

It's odd that you don't agree with the above p***age and meaning as I found the information on an Evangelical Christian Bible site specifically so you could understand what I was saying. There is another example that says words can only have one meaning within the context being presented at that time. That applies here as well.

http://www.simplybible.com/f951.htm
The remainder of your comment was [snipped] because it had nothing to do with the above interpretation

So, you don't believe LDS are Christian, you don't believe Catholics are Christian, is it also your belief that Evangelists aren't Christian, or is there another reason you don't believe this interpretation?

As for the last comment above from you, I don't see how you could believe any other way if you think we can only be adopted children of God through faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that only the sons and daughters of God will live with Him again.

I'm glad you agree with my understanding.

By that, your logic would dictate that children not brought unto the Gospel cannot live with God, or is there a concession made in that case? If so, up to what age do children get a p***?

Your theory about my logic is flawed to say the least.

"or is there a concession made in that case?
No, my theory is sound

God has given NO 'age of consent,' thus when Jesus said 'of such is the kingdom of heaven' we don't know when in a child's life that ceases to be.

Thank you for sharing what you believe. We believe children will live again with God as well. It's nice to have common ground

[Christian]

mickey posted:

mickey posted:

The scriptures use different terms to describe how we are sons & daughters of God & Jesus Christ

We are all literal spirit children of Heavenly Father
Acts 17:29 - We are offspring of God

Adopted, of course. . .He is CLEARLY NOT TALKING about 'spiritual babies

It's actually NOT clear since that's not what offspring means. The remainder of your comment was [snipped]

Just as I <snipped> the remainder of YOUR comment for the same reason.

The p***age:

Acts 17:23-31
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given ***urance of this to all by raising Him from the dea
NKJV

Please SHOW US IN THE P***AGE where it SAYS ONE WORD ABOUT SPIRITUAL BABIES in any 'pre-existance. . .' Sorry, but it simply IS NOT THERE.

So wait a minute...first you told childofgod that "begotten" doesn't mean "offspring", now you're saying "offspring" doesn't mean "offspring"

The word 'beget' means "to Father." When a man begets a child, he FATHERS a child. Jesus is the ONLY 'FATHERED' child of God. The rest of us are adopted through Jesus Christ.

"offspring" can mean mutiple things. It simply means 'child of.' It does NOT TELL how the child BECAME a child of God. THAT happened when we received Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
NKJV

IF they had ever been 'fathered' by God as so-called 'spirit-babies,' that sentence would make NO SENSE AT ALL.

And from your comments below, if you don't believe words or concepts have multiple meanings in the Bible, then how can you adopt your own offspring?

Hebrews 12:9 - Be in subjection unto the Father of spirits

We are "adopted" children born again through the Atonement
John 1:12 - As many as received him gave he power to become the sons of God

Which OF COURSE indicates that they are GIVEN THE POWER TO BECOME the sons of God, THEY AREN'T THAT WAY BEFORE THEN. The Atonement of JESUS CHRIST (THE REAL ONE) paid for them

That is my point. . .You CANNOT 'adopt' your own children.

And prior to your BECOMING a child of God????

John 8:44-45
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV


We CHRISTIANS had to be bought because we didn't already belong to Jesus.

1 Cor 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
NKJV

1 Cor 7:22-24
22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called.
NKJV




It's odd that you don't agree with the above p***age and meaning as I found the information on an Evangelical Christian Bible site specifically so you could understand what I was saying. There is another example that says words can only have one meaning within the context being presented at that time. That applies here as well.

So, you don't believe LDS are Christian, you don't believe Catholics are Christian, is it also your belief that Evangelists aren't Christian, or is there another reason you don't believe this interpretation?

Catholics tell you to pray to non-gods. Mormons follow a god who used to be a man, one of MANY men they claim have become gods. The BIBLE (the WORD OF GOD) contradicts BOTH of your stands. I don't think you even know what an evangelist is. To my knowledge, there is no 'religious organization' called that. Do you make this stuff up as you go?

As for the last comment above from you, I don't see how you could believe any other way if you think we can only be adopted children of God through faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that only the sons and daughters of God will live with Him again.

I'm glad you agree with my understanding.

By that, your logic would dictate that children not brought unto the Gospel cannot live with God, or is there a concession made in that case? If so, up to what age do children get a p***?

Your theory about my logic is flawed to say the least.

"or is there a concession made in that case?
No, my theory is sound.

God has not spoken about any 'age of accountability.' Jesus said of children and infants 'of such is the kingdom of heaven. That is good enough for me. I believe Him. You may make anything up YOU WANT TO BELIEVE if you wish.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Christian

mickey posted:



It's actually NOT clear since that's not what offspring means. The remainder of your comment was [snipped]

Just as I <snipped> the remainder of YOUR comment for the same reason.

The p***age:

Acts 17:23-31
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given ***urance of this to all by raising Him from the dea
NKJV

Please SHOW US IN THE P***AGE where it SAYS ONE WORD ABOUT SPIRITUAL BABIES in any 'pre-existance. . .' Sorry, but it simply IS NOT THERE.

So wait a minute...first you told childofgod that "begotten" doesn't mean "offspring", now you're saying "offspring" doesn't mean "offspring"

The word 'beget' means "to Father." When a man begets a child, he FATHERS a child. Jesus is the ONLY 'FATHERED' child of God. The rest of us are adopted through Jesus Christ.

"offspring" can mean mutiple things. It simply means 'child of.' It does NOT TELL how the child BECAME a child of God. THAT happened when we received Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.
John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
NKJV

IF they had ever been 'fathered' by God as so-called 'spirit-babies,' that sentence would make NO SENSE AT ALL.

And from your comments below, if you don't believe words or concepts have multiple meanings in the Bible, then how can you adopt your own offspring?

Hebrews 12:9 - Be in subjection unto the [B]Father of spirits



That is my point. . .You CANNOT 'adopt' your own children.

And prior to your BECOMING a child of God????

John 8:44-45
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV


We CHRISTIANS had to be bought because we didn't already belong to Jesus.

1 Cor 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
NKJV

1 Cor 7:22-24
22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord's freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ's slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called.
NKJV




It's odd that you don't agree with the above p***age and meaning as I found the information on an Evangelical Christian Bible site specifically so you could understand what I was saying. There is another example that says words can only have one meaning within the context being presented at that time. That applies here as well.

So, you don't believe LDS are Christian, you don't believe Catholics are Christian, is it also your belief that Evangelists aren't Christian, or is there another reason you don't believe this interpretation?

Catholics tell you to pray to non-gods. Mormons follow a god who used to be a man, one of MANY men they claim have become gods. The BIBLE (the WORD OF GOD) contradicts BOTH of your stands. I don't think you even know what an evangelist is. To my knowledge, there is no 'religious organization' called that. Do you make this stuff up as you go?



"or is there a concession made in that case?
No, my theory is sound.

God has not spoken about any 'age of accountability.' Jesus said of children and infants 'of such is the kingdom of heaven. That is good enough for me. I believe Him. You may make anything up YOU WANT TO BELIEVE if you wish.

Oh my goodness, you're all over the place. And you didn't answer my questions, and you completely mixed up the context of a lot of what I was saying. So, I'll be back in a bit when I get of work and ask them again. If I were a rude person I would say your incessant endless melodramatic prattling (whining?) was a ploy to not answer my individual questions. But I'm not, so I won't

But, I'll be back later and address things separately and with as few words as possible. And I'll keep asking the questions, until you answer them.

One thing I would like to address now is this

You said "To my knowledge, there is no religious organization called that (evangelism)

Walter Martin Ministries says "Walter Martin Ministries focuses on evangelism.."

I wasn't saying the religion was called "evangelism", although I know it may have looked that way to someone being evasive (or clueless), I was speaking more about "evangelicalism" which is "a worldwide, transdenominational movement within Protestant Christianity, maintaining that the essence of the gospel consists in the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ's atonement." So it's not an organization...it's a movement.

Now, this site, is a evangelical CHRISTIAN site. But what it is NOT is Catholic or LDS. So, in plain words for you to understand, it's what you call "CHRISTIAN". Which should mean that you should agree with what they say. It's called "Simply Bible" The link is below

http://www.simplybible.com/f951.htm

THIS IS MY ONLY QUESTION:
Why do you not agree with a "CHRISTIAN" interpretation of the word "glory" in this Bible verse?

Heaven "...taken up in glory..." (1Timothy 3:16)

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Christian

The p***age:

Acts 17:23-31
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given ***urance of this to all by raising Him from the dea
NKJV

Please SHOW US IN THE P***AGE where it SAYS ONE WORD ABOUT SPIRITUAL BABIES in any 'pre-existance. . .' Sorry, but it simply IS NOT THERE.

Please show in the p***age where it says ONE WORD about being adopted through faith and the atonement. It simply IS NOT THERE. This section is not about accepting the Gospel or becoming "adopted" children through the Atonement. It is about the nature of God, and our relation to Him. In this context....He is speaking of how we are literally His children. ALL OF US.

Again...there are different ways the Lord speaks of us as children.
1 - We are ALL literal spirit children of God
2 - We can be "adopted" through The Savior's Atonement and Gospel

The word 'beget' means "to Father." When a man begets a child, he FATHERS a child. Jesus is the ONLY 'FATHERED' child of God. The rest of us are adopted through Jesus Christ.

Jesus is the only physically fathered child of God, the only mortal man to have a Heavenly Father and a mortal mother. The rest of us can be adopted through Jesus Christ. And then we are ALL literal spirit children of God.

It does NOT TELL how the child BECAME a child of God. THAT happened when we received Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.

If it doesn't tell of HOW the child became a child of God....how do you know how it happened?

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
NKJV

IF they had ever been 'fathered' by God as so-called 'spirit-babies,' that sentence would make NO SENSE AT ALL.

Sigh...okay, lets do this again...
We are all LITERAL spirit children of God
We can become SYMBOLIC children of Jesus Christ through the Atonement.

And prior to your BECOMING a child of God????

We existed as intelligence.

We CHRISTIANS had to be bought because we didn't already belong to Jesus.

Correct, an example of how we can become SYMBOLIC "adopted" children through the Atonement and the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we didn't already belong to Jesus because He's not the Father of our spirits.

I don't think you even know what an evangelist is. To my knowledge, there is no 'religious organization' called that. Do you make this stuff up as you go?

I addressed this in my other response...I meant the MOVEMENT of evangelism within Protestant Christianity, of which Walter Martin and this forum is based on when it says in it's "about us" section "Walter Martin Ministries focuses on evangelism..."

God has not spoken about any 'age of accountability.'

Okay, so your answer is you don't know when.

[Christian]

mickey posted:

Originally Posted by Christian

The p***age:

Acts 17:23-31
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands. 25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things. 26 And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings, 27 so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. 30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given ***urance of this to all by raising Him from the dea
NKJV

Please SHOW US IN THE P***AGE where it SAYS ONE WORD ABOUT SPIRITUAL BABIES in any 'pre-existance. . .' Sorry, but it simply IS NOT THERE.

Please show in the p***age where it says ONE WORD about being adopted through faith and the atonement. It simply IS NOT THERE. This section is not about accepting the Gospel or becoming "adopted" children through the Atonement. It is about the nature of God, and our relation to Him. In this context....He is speaking of how we are literally His children. ALL OF US.

When I study my Bible, I take the WHOLE BIBLE into consideration.

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV


Eph 1:3-6


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJV


I'm sorry if you don't believe THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. You can follow joey smith's imaginary gods if you wish.

Again...there are different ways the Lord speaks of us as children.
1 - We are ALL literal spirit children of God

Not according to GOD. We CHRISTIANS were ADOPTED by God, to be His children.

NON-Christians such as mormons, branch davidians, and other heathens fit the following description BY GOD:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV



2 - We can be "adopted" through The Savior's Atonement and Gospel

[/COLOR]
Jesus is the only physically fathered child of God, the only mortal man to have a Heavenly Father and a mortal mother. The rest of us can be adopted through Jesus Christ. And then we are ALL literal spirit children of God.


If it doesn't tell of HOW the child became a child of God....how do you know how it happened?

I read the Galatians and Ephesians p***ages above where GOD SAID SO. You ought to try actually STUDYING your Bible. . .

Sigh...okay, lets do this again...
We are all LITERAL spirit children of God
We can become SYMBOLIC children of Jesus Christ through the Atonement.

YOU CLAIM those things (GOD never said so).
Your cult may have TOLD you those things (GOD SAID NOTHING ABOUT BECOMING "SYMBOLIC" CHILDREN" THROUGH THE ATONEMENT BY JESUS ON THE CROSS)
Your cult has lied to you. . .again.

And prior to your BECOMING a child of God????

We existed as intelligence.
Do you make this junk up as you go? WHERE is this supposed to happen? In your pre-pre-existance? or your pre-pre-pre-pre-existance?

We CHRISTIANS had to be bought because we didn't already belong to Jesus.

Correct, an example of how we can become SYMBOLIC "adopted" children through the Atonement and the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we didn't already belong to Jesus because He's not the Father of our spirits.

I don't think even YOUR OWN CULT teaches your 'symbolic' adopted children theory. . . It LOOKS like you make it up as you go.

I don't think you even know what an evangelist is. To my knowledge, there is no 'religious organization' called that. Do you make this stuff up as you go?

I addressed this in my other response...I meant the MOVEMENT of evangelism within Protestant Christianity, of which Walter Martin and this forum is based on when it says in it's "about us" section "Walter Martin Ministries focuses on evangelism..."

And when you clearly misused the term (not mentioning the deceased Walter Martin at all), I pointed out that you seem to not know the meaning of the word. Have you looked up the meaning of the word since?

God has not spoken about any 'age of accountability.'

Okay, so your answer is you don't know when.

​GOD has not said when, thus NEITHER you NOR I know when. I am happy to leave it up to God however. Are you?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Christian

mickey posted:

[/COLOR][/I][/COLOR]
Please show in the p***age where it says ONE WORD about being adopted through faith and the atonement. It simply IS NOT THERE. This section is not about accepting the Gospel or becoming "adopted" children through the Atonement. It is about the nature of God, and our relation to Him. In this context....He is speaking of how we are literally His children. ALL OF US.

When I study my Bible, I take the WHOLE BIBLE into consideration.

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV


Eph 1:3-6


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJV


I'm sorry if you don't believe THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. You can follow joey smith's imaginary gods if you wish.

Again...there are different ways the Lord speaks of us as children.
1 - We are ALL literal spirit children of God

Not according to GOD. We CHRISTIANS were ADOPTED by God, to be His children.

NON-Christians such as mormons, branch davidians, and other heathens fit the following description BY GOD:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV



2 - We can be "adopted" through The Savior's Atonement and Gospel

[/COLOR]
Jesus is the only physically fathered child of God, the only mortal man to have a Heavenly Father and a mortal mother. The rest of us can be adopted through Jesus Christ. And then we are ALL literal spirit children of God.


If it doesn't tell of HOW the child became a child of God....how do you know how it happened?

I read the Galatians and Ephesians p***ages above where GOD SAID SO. You ought to try actually STUDYING your Bible. . .

Sigh...okay, lets do this again...
We are all LITERAL spirit children of God
We can become SYMBOLIC children of Jesus Christ through the Atonement.

YOU CLAIM those things (GOD never said so).
Your cult may have TOLD you those things (GOD SAID NOTHING ABOUT BECOMING "SYMBOLIC" CHILDREN" THROUGH THE ATONEMENT BY JESUS ON THE CROSS)
Your cult has lied to you. . .again.



We existed as intelligence.
Do you make this junk up as you go? WHERE is this supposed to happen? In your pre-pre-existance? or your pre-pre-pre-pre-existance?



Correct, an example of how we can become SYMBOLIC "adopted" children through the Atonement and the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we didn't already belong to Jesus because He's not the Father of our spirits.

I don't think even YOUR OWN CULT teaches your 'symbolic' adopted children theory. . . It LOOKS like you make it up as you go.



I addressed this in my other response...I meant the MOVEMENT of evangelism within Protestant Christianity, of which Walter Martin and this forum is based on when it says in it's "about us" section "Walter Martin Ministries focuses on evangelism..."

And when you clearly misused the term (not mentioning the deceased Walter Martin at all), I pointed out that you seem to not know the meaning of the word. Have you looked up the meaning of the word since?




Okay, so your answer is you don't know when.

​GOD has not said when, thus NEITHER you NOR I know when. I am happy to leave it up to God however. Are you?

I see, when you don't want to actually address what I'm talking about, you start in with the ad hominem attacks towards Joseph Smith....yawn... Predictable. You still did not answer about the "Christian" interpretation of the bible verse you disagreed with or answer my question why. Although you expressed before how I just need to ask what you believe and you'll tell me. Actual details, not just your overly repe***ive party line. You did not acknowledge when I explained that individual words in the Bible can have multiple meanings...DEPENDING ON THE CONTEXT in that particular section in which that particular word is discussed. And could not present anywhere in the P***AGE ( in this particular section) where God is referring to His adopted children in the Gospel.

And of course the "adoption" into the Gospel is symbolic....we're already His actual children silly.

I will address your individual evasions at another time.

But as for needing to reference the late Dr Martin when discussing the movement he stood for, IN HIS OWN FORUM...that seems silly. But I guess I have to explain everything to you. I'll try to be more thorough in the future. But you still never answered my question that was related to that. Nice deflect though.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Christian

mickey posted:

[/COLOR][/I][/COLOR]
Please show in the p***age where it says ONE WORD about being adopted through faith and the atonement. It simply IS NOT THERE. This section is not about accepting the Gospel or becoming "adopted" children through the Atonement. It is about the nature of God, and our relation to Him. In this context....He is speaking of how we are literally His children. ALL OF US.

When I study my Bible, I take the WHOLE BIBLE into consideration.

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV


Eph 1:3-6


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJV


I'm sorry if you don't believe THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. You can follow joey smith's imaginary gods if you wish.

Again...there are different ways the Lord speaks of us as children.
1 - We are ALL literal spirit children of God

Not according to GOD. We CHRISTIANS were ADOPTED by God, to be His children.

NON-Christians such as mormons, branch davidians, and other heathens fit the following description BY GOD:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV



2 - We can be "adopted" through The Savior's Atonement and Gospel

[/COLOR]
Jesus is the only physically fathered child of God, the only mortal man to have a Heavenly Father and a mortal mother. The rest of us can be adopted through Jesus Christ. And then we are ALL literal spirit children of God.


If it doesn't tell of HOW the child became a child of God....how do you know how it happened?

I read the Galatians and Ephesians p***ages above where GOD SAID SO. You ought to try actually STUDYING your Bible. . .

Sigh...okay, lets do this again...
We are all LITERAL spirit children of God
We can become SYMBOLIC children of Jesus Christ through the Atonement.

YOU CLAIM those things (GOD never said so).
Your cult may have TOLD you those things (GOD SAID NOTHING ABOUT BECOMING "SYMBOLIC" CHILDREN" THROUGH THE ATONEMENT BY JESUS ON THE CROSS)
Your cult has lied to you. . .again.



We existed as intelligence.
Do you make this junk up as you go? WHERE is this supposed to happen? In your pre-pre-existance? or your pre-pre-pre-pre-existance?



Correct, an example of how we can become SYMBOLIC "adopted" children through the Atonement and the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we didn't already belong to Jesus because He's not the Father of our spirits.

I don't think even YOUR OWN CULT teaches your 'symbolic' adopted children theory. . . It LOOKS like you make it up as you go.



I addressed this in my other response...I meant the MOVEMENT of evangelism within Protestant Christianity, of which Walter Martin and this forum is based on when it says in it's "about us" section "Walter Martin Ministries focuses on evangelism..."

And when you clearly misused the term (not mentioning the deceased Walter Martin at all), I pointed out that you seem to not know the meaning of the word. Have you looked up the meaning of the word since?




Okay, so your answer is you don't know when.

​GOD has not said when, thus NEITHER you NOR I know when. I am happy to leave it up to God however. Are you?

I have some questions about those who were born before Christ came.

Were they able to be adopted by God through the Gospel? I'm ***uming it's through believing in God and practicing the Law of Moses, correct?

But anyone who were not able to be taught the Law of Moses will not be His children?

And then all the Jews that were saved and became Gods adopted children before Christ was born...went to hell for doing the same thing right after Christ died, correct?

These aren't questions I don't know the answers to, I'm just trying to get some specifics of what you believe, you said I could do that, so if you would, I'd appreciate it.

Oh, and please try to answer my questions with more than "I believe in the God of the Bible" or "I believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible"

Thanks!!

[alanmolstad]

I like the questions raised...

But all that stuff in the quotation?...that just screws with my head and i get lost in the monster amount if text....so im setting that stuff aside and only deal with the stuff you ask about....

[alanmolstad]

I have some questions about those who were born before Christ came.

Were they able to be adopted by God through the Gospel?




The law was only a school teacher that served untill the Lord came.

But be that as it may.....what the Bible shows us is that at all times the Lord is calling out to people....the Lord is not deaf...he hears all the words we speak in our hearts.

In the Bible in the Old test we see a small glimpse that regardless of their place of origin that people were responding to the calling of god they have heard....

This is the reason there is a "Court of the Gentiles"....for people even in the days of the Old test from other nations were still able to hear the calling of God ad become drawn to the Holy city....

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I like the questions raised...

But all that stuff in the quotation?...that just screws with my head and i get lost in the monster amount if text....so im setting that stuff aside and only deal with the stuff you ask about....

Eek, sorry, I guess I was just showing that I was addressing Christian, yeah, that was getting kinda crazy lol

[alanmolstad]

But anyone who were not able to be taught the Law of Moses will not be His children?



Im sure thereis a great answer by Walter martin for this very question....But Im way too tired to go googleing for it right now...so I will just answer this question for myself on the fly....here we go.


There were people that were drawn to the holy City yet had a very ****py idea of the Bible and who Moses was.....


The idea I have is that we all are not far from god regardless of where and when we are born,,,,God is always reaching out to us in many,many ways...God will even use your own private thoughts as a means to reach out to you....

This is why no person has any excuse for turning away from God...as all people have received the calling from god.....

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have some questions about those who were born before Christ came.

Were they able to be adopted by God through the Gospel?






The law was only a school teacher that served untill the Lord came.

But be that as it may.....what the Bible shows us is that at all times the Lord is calling out to people....the Lord is not deaf...he hears all the words we speak in our hearts.

In the Bible in the Old test we see a small glimpse that regardless of their place of origin that people were responding to the calling of god they have heard....

This is the reason there is a "Court of the Gentiles"....for people even in the days of the Old test from other nations were still able to hear the calling of God ad become drawn to the Holy city....

Can you please let me know where in the Bible this is taught, and how this made them children of God through the Gospel?

Thanks!

[Christian]

mickey posted:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
mickey posted:

[/COLOR]
Please show in the p***age where it says ONE WORD about being adopted through faith and the atonement. It simply IS NOT THERE. This section is not about accepting the Gospel or becoming "adopted" children through the Atonement. It is about the nature of God, and our relation to Him. In this context....He is speaking of how we are literally His children. ALL OF US.

When I study my Bible, I take the WHOLE BIBLE into consideration.

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV


Eph 1:3-6


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us toadoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJV


I'm sorry if you don't believe THE GOD OF THE BIBLE. You can follow joey smith's imaginary gods if you wish.

Again...there are different ways the Lord speaks of us as children.
1 - We are ALL literal spirit children of God

Not according to GOD. We CHRISTIANS were ADOPTED by God, to be His children.

NON-Christians such as mormons, branch davidians, and other heathens fit the following description BY GOD:

John 8:44
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
NKJV



2 - We can be "adopted" through The Savior's Atonement and Gospel

[/COLOR]
Jesus is the only physically fathered child of God, the only mortal man to have a Heavenly Father and a mortal mother. The rest of us can be adopted through Jesus Christ. And then we are ALL literal spirit children of God.


If it doesn't tell of HOW the child became a child of God....how do you know how it happened?

I read the Galatians and Ephesians p***ages above where GOD SAID SO. You ought to try actually STUDYING your Bible. . .

Sigh...okay, lets do this again...
We are all LITERAL spirit children of God
We can become SYMBOLIC children of Jesus Christ through the Atonement.

YOU CLAIM those things (GOD never said so).
Your cult may have TOLD you those things (GOD SAID NOTHING ABOUT BECOMING "SYMBOLIC" CHILDREN" THROUGH THE ATONEMENT BY JESUS ON THE CROSS)
Your cult has lied to you. . .again.



We existed as intelligence.
Do you make this junk up as you go? WHERE is this supposed to happen? In your pre-pre-existance? or your pre-pre-pre-pre-existance?



Correct, an example of how we can become SYMBOLIC "adopted" children through the Atonement and the gospel of Jesus Christ. And we didn't already belong to Jesus because He's not the Father of our spirits.

I don't think even YOUR OWN CULT teaches your 'symbolic' adopted children theory. . . It LOOKS like you make it up as you go.



I addressed this in my other response...I meant the MOVEMENT of evangelism within Protestant Christianity, of which Walter Martin and this forum is based on when it says in it's "about us" section "Walter Martin Ministries focuses on evangelism..."

And when you clearly misused the term (not mentioning the deceased Walter Martin at all), I pointed out that you seem to not know the meaning of the word. Have you looked up the meaning of the word since?




Okay, so your answer is you don't know when.

​GOD has not said when, thus NEITHER you NOR I know when. I am happy to leave it up to God however. Are you?

[/I][/COLOR]

I see, when you don't want to actually address what I'm talking about, you start in with the ad hominem attacks towards Joseph Smith....yawn... Predictable. You still did not answer about the "Christian" interpretation of the bible verse you disagreed with or answer my question why.

What part of "When I study my Bible, I take the WHOLE BIBLE into consideration.

Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
NKJV


Eph 1:3-6


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
NKJV"
DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND? I quoted SCRIPTURE that contradicted your pretense that all people are 'spirit children of God.' I pointed out that God doesn't 'adopt' those children who are already HIS.

But you just continue to make up fantasy claims.

And of course the "adoption" into the Gospel is symbolic....we're already His actual children silly.
Not according to God, you aren't.

I will address your individual evasions at another time

In other words, you cannot find BIBLICAL answers for your false claims, so you will run away without admitting it.

But as for needing to reference the late Dr Martin when discussing the movement he stood for, IN HIS OWN FORUM...that seems silly. But I guess I have to explain everything to you. I'll try to be more thorough in the future. But you still never answered my question that was related to that. Nice deflect though.

What question was that? You make some vague reference to an 'evangelist,' then whine because I don't understand WHO you were referring to and trying to 'put down?' Your strawman arguments don't work.

[MickeyS]

Christian said:

In other words, you cannot find BIBLICAL answers for your false claims, so you will run away without admitting it.

No I just have more to do in my life than hold your hand through this discussion. I clearly posted a scripture and you ignored it and quoted other scripture that only proved when we are adopted children through the Gospel. But you refused to discuss the scripture I posted. I have to keep going back through your incessant repe***ive prattle and explain things...it takes a minute. Perhaps you think if you keep repeating the same things over and over again, I'll just give up..so I have to devise a way in which I just ask one...question...at..a...time...which proves a challenge because I have to figure out what to ask first that won't confuse you. So, yes, I'll be back. I haven't backed down yet

[MickeyS]

Since Christian missed this question before, I Will post it again and see if he will answer it. Christian, please let me know if there are any difficult or "vague" words that you don't understand.

I had put the question in bold so you wouldn't miss it..,here it is again...this will be the third time I've posted it

I know you read the post because all you wanted to do was whine about how I didn't make it completely clear (although it should have been completely obvious) what kind of Evangelism I was speaking of. So.....I will remove that distracting word since you're having a problem comprehending it, and leave it at what YOU refer to as "Christian". Ok? So don't pout anymore.

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Now, this site, is not Catholic or LDS. So, in plain words for you to understand, it's what you call "CHRISTIAN". Which should mean that you should agree with what they say. It's called "Simply Bible" The link is below

http://www.simplybible.com/f951.htm

THIS IS MY ONLY QUESTION:
Why do you not agree with a "CHRISTIAN" interpretation of the word "glory" in this Bible verse?

Heaven "...taken up in glory..." (1Timothy 3:16)

[MickeyS]

For Christian:

But as for needing to reference the late Dr Martin when discussing the movement he stood for, IN HIS OWN FORUM...that seems silly. But I guess I have to explain everything to you. I'll try to be more thorough in the future. But you still never answered my question that was related to that. Nice deflect though.

What question was that? You make some vague reference to an 'evangelist,' then whine because I don't understand WHO you were referring to and trying to 'put down?' Your strawman arguments don't work.

Huh?? What did I whine about? Lol, you were the one who needed things explained to you, so I obliged...you're a weird dude, you keep asking me to do things and then complain that I do them...lol, you're funny

Also, when you put things in these "quote" marks it means you're quoting exactly what the OP said or has said. Since I never said "put down" maybe you don't know that, just trying to help out

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Can you please let me know where in the Bible this is taught, ....?

Thanks!

I wrote a bunch of stuff, so can you tell me what you would like me to show support for in the bible?

Th

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I wrote a bunch of stuff, so can you tell me what you would like me to show support for in the bible?

Th

What is the "calling from God", how does it work, and where can that be found in the OT?

What exactly was the "Court of Gentiles" and how did that specifically make them adopted children of God, like you say we can be through faith in Jesus Christ and His gospel?

Also, since everyone should have heard the calling of God that called them to the Holy City...if they did not go there, did they lose their opportunity to become children of God, and where is that explained in the Bible?

And how did they know whether or not this would exclude them from being God's children, and where is that in the Bible?

If that is the ONLY way we can be considered children of God...at all..how was it done before Jesus Christ, and where can it be found in the Bible? I'm looking for the OT specifics for being saved through faith in Jesus Christ and becoming Gods children. It should be there because they were very specific about commandments and rituals and ceremonies. I'm just trying to get a clear bead on how mankind has always had the opportunity to become children of God, especially since you say we have no familial relations to Him until then.

Thank you

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by childofgod

What do you believe happens to those who die without even knowing anything about Jesus?


What about children of the unbelievers?

[MickeyS]

I have asked Christian this question three times now....is he ready to answer? I would like to move on to other topics, you requested I give you the question.....again... Thank you

[QUOTE] Now, this site, is not Catholic or LDS. So, in plain words for you to understand, it's what you call "CHRISTIAN". Which should mean that you should agree with what they say. It's called "Simply Bible" The link is below

http://www.simplybible.com/f951.htm

THIS IS MY ONLY QUESTION:
Why do you not agree with a "CHRISTIAN" interpretation of the word "glory" in this Bible verse?

Heaven "...taken up in glory..." (1Timothy 3:16) [/QUOTE

[Christian]

[QUOTE=MickeyS;165369]I have asked Christian this question three times now....is he ready to answer? I would like to move on to other topics, you requested I give you the question.....again... Thank you

Now, this site, is not Catholic or LDS. So, in plain words for you to understand, it's what you call "CHRISTIAN". Which should mean that you should agree with what they say. It's called "Simply Bible" The link is below

THIS IS MY ONLY QUESTION:
Why do you not agree with a "CHRISTIAN" interpretation of the word "glory" in this Bible verse?

Heaven "...taken up in glory..." (1Timothy 3:16) [/QUOTE

I <snipped> the link. I don't go 'link-hopping' for you to help you 'try to make points.'

It doesn't matter a whit what that person thinks the word 'glory' means in that p***age. WHAT DID PAUL mean is the question you should be asking, not 'can I find anyone, someone anywhere who agrees with you?'

The MEANING of the Greek word in that p***age = 'splendor, magnificence, grandness.'

It does NOT MEAN a place where people go when they die.

Your cult has lied to you. . .again.

And you keep whining. I have answered this question before.

Now you will likely whine some more about me not answering it.

Of course YOU are not interested in what Paul meant when he wrote to Timothy. YOU are only interested in trying to find someone/something that agrees with your pre-determined theory. Not very honest, if you ask me. . .

[Christian]

mickey posted:

Christian said:

In other words, you cannot find BIBLICAL answers for your false claims, so you will run away without admitting it.

No I just have more to do in my life than hold your hand through this discussion. I clearly posted a scripture and you ignored it and quoted other scripture that only proved when we are adopted children through the Gospel.

Please SHOW US where that is so. I don't think you can. But I AM glad that we are ADOPTED children of God, NOT HIS BIOLOGICAL OFFSPRING. Your 'we are all children of god' theory is debunked. We are ADOPTED children of God (AS YOU AGREED). He does not need to ADOPT his own kids, of course! Your theory debunked.

But you refused to discuss the scripture I posted.

I think I went through your post line by line. You CERTAINLY DID NOT respond to MY POSTINGS.

You are a pot calling the kettle black, clearly.

I have to keep going back through your incessant repe***ive prattle and explain things...it takes a minute.

I point out SCRIPTURE that demonstrates that YOU ARE IGNORANT OF THE BIBLE, so it IS necessary for me to 'explain things' to you FROM THE SCRIPTURES.

Perhaps you think if you keep repeating the same things over and over again, I'll just give up..

I DO keep repeating the TRUTHS FROM THE BIBLE. That is what we CHRISTIANS do. UNLIKE you mormons who seem to 'make it up as you go.'

I pity you, and I pray to the GOD OF THE BIBLE (not the 'once a man who became a god, but never changed at all' god for your soul.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Since Christian missed this question before, I Will post it again and see if he will answer it. Christian, please let me know if there are any difficult or "vague" words that you don't understand.

I had put the question in bold so you wouldn't miss it..,here it is again...this will be the third time I've posted it

I know you read the post because all you wanted to do was whine about how I didn't make it completely clear (although it should have been completely obvious) what kind of Evangelism I was speaking of. So.....I will remove that distracting word since you're having a problem comprehending it, and leave it at what YOU refer to as "Christian". Ok? So don't pout anymore.

I KNEW you would ignore my answer and whine some more! I answered your post MORE THAN ONCE, but you keep whining anyway. So stop your pouting and whining and SHOW US IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS

That all men are 'spirit children' of your god and goddesses
That God was once a man
That Jesus was NOT the ONLY begotten (fathered) Son of God
That Christ's church would/could 'lose some of its scriptures.'
That Jesus is a 'spirit brother' of satan instead of satan's CREATOR

Of course YOU never respond to this (though I have posted it all in various forms MANY TIMES); instead you just whine.

What will you whine now? I answered your question AGAIN.

Of course I don't have a CLUE why you would think that the writer of that article should be agreed with just because he sez he is a Christian. The fundamentalist mormons claim to be 'Christians' too. Just like the other 150 or so heathen mormon religions do, while they each deny that any of the others are.
I've answered YOUR questions. Now YOU have the guts to answer MINE (if you can, if not, we will understand).

[MickeyS]

[QUOTE=Christian;165424]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

I have asked Christian this question three times now....is he ready to answer? I would like to move on to other topics, you requested I give you the question.....again... Thank you



I <snipped> the link. I don't go 'link-hopping' for you to help you 'try to make points.'

It doesn't matter a whit what that person thinks the word 'glory' means in that p***age. WHAT DID PAUL mean is the question you should be asking, not 'can I find anyone, someone anywhere who agrees with you?'

The MEANING of the Greek word in that p***age = 'splendor, magnificence, grandness.'

It does NOT MEAN a place where people go when they die.

Your cult has lied to you. . .again.

And you keep whining. I have answered this question before.

Now you will likely whine some more about me not answering it.

Of course YOU are not interested in what Paul meant when he wrote to Timothy. YOU are only interested in trying to find someone/something that agrees with your pre-determined theory. Not very honest, if you ask me. . .

My cult didn't say that you idiot....*** you're so dumb! Lol Another Christian to remove from the list of "Christian's Christians" lol

[MickeyS]

[QUOTE=Christian;165424]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

I have asked Christian this question three times now....is he ready to answer? I would like to move on to other topics, you requested I give you the question.....again... Thank you



I <snipped> the link. I don't go 'link-hopping' for you to help you 'try to make points.'

It doesn't matter a whit what that person thinks the word 'glory' means in that p***age. WHAT DID PAUL mean is the question you should be asking, not 'can I find anyone, someone anywhere who agrees with you?'

The MEANING of the Greek word in that p***age = 'splendor, magnificence, grandness.'

It does NOT MEAN a place where people go when they die.

Your cult has lied to you. . .again.

And you keep whining. I have answered this question before.

Now you will likely whine some more about me not answering it.

Of course YOU are not interested in what Paul meant when he wrote to Timothy. YOU are only interested in trying to find someone/something that agrees with your pre-determined theory. Not very honest, if you ask me. . .

My cult didn't say that you idiot....*** you're so dumb! Lol Another Christian to remove from the list of "Christian's Christians" lol