Eternal ****ation

[Grandma]

Does anyone know what eternal ****ation is?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Does anyone know what eternal ****ation is?

Being a Vikings fan?

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Being a Vikings fan?

Ha! Ha! I meant the Mormon idea.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Does anyone know what eternal ****ation is?

Easy....
****ation is eternal spiritual death. In other words, eternal separation from The Father.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

To be halted in one's progression. The root word in ****ation is dam, the same word with the same meaning as to what beavers and people build. A dam stops the flow of water, eternal ****ation stops the flow of progression. Many evangelicals erroneously believe it means to face hellfire forever, even going so far as to believe souls will literally be on fire forever. Since ****ation is from God, the Eternal One, it is called eternal ****ation, indicating who gives the punishment.

Word Origin and History for ****ation
n.
c.1300, "condemnation to Hell by God," also "fact of being condemned by judicial sentence," from Old French ****ation, from Latin ****ationem (nominative ****atio), noun of action from past participle stem of ****are (see **** ). As an imprecation, attested from c.1600.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper

That Mormon definition and supposed etymology is bizarre.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

Easy....
****ation is eternal spiritual death. In other words, eternal separation from The Father.

I agree that there is eternal separation from God.

But if people have spiritual death, why would they be sent to a "kingdom of glory?"

And how can a kingdom be glorious without God?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

I agree that there is eternal separation from God.

But if people have spiritual death, why would they be sent to a "kingdom of glory?"

And how can a kingdom be glorious without God?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

Its more of a "degree" of Glory or happiness/joy.

In a worldly understanding, it's much the same as degrees of love.

When you were very young you LOVED your parents the same way you loved ice cream. it was probably a hard choice at that age between the two.
Then when you came into your young adult years you fell in Love. This love seemed far greater in intensity than any type of Love you had in your childhood. In fact, you would gladly leave the love of your parents for this new type of LOVE.
Then when you begin to have children and raise a family you experienced a greater type of love. One in which you would gladly give up your life and all you had, just for their happiness.

Now you are old. You are laying in a hospital bed longing for the company of those you love and who have loved you.
Yet you are not allowed to receive any visits. You will not be able to be in the presence of your father, mother, husband, or children ever again.

Instead the nurse brings you a bowl of ice cream....


That ice cream you thought you LOVED as a child, suddenly does not look so grand or glorious.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

So you've never heard of a dam? Having your eternal progression stopped is the exact same thing as spiritual death. Its not bizarre at all, its called common sense.

The word dam has nothing to do with it. That's a Mormon invention.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

Its more of a "degree" of Glory or happiness/joy.

In a worldly understanding, it's much the same as degrees of love.

When you were very young you LOVED your parents the same way you loved ice cream. it was probably a hard choice at that age between the two.
Then when you came into your young adult years you fell in Love. This love seemed far greater in intensity than any type of Love you had in your childhood. In fact, you would gladly leave the love of your parents for this new type of LOVE.
Then when you begin to have children and raise a family you experienced a greater type of love. One in which you would gladly give up your life and all you had, just for their happiness.

Now you are old. You are laying in a hospital bed longing for the company of those you love and who have loved you.
Yet you are not allowed to receive any visits. You will not be able to be in the presence of your father, mother, husband, or children ever again.

Instead the nurse brings you a bowl of ice cream....


That ice cream you thought you LOVED as a child, suddenly does not look so grand or glorious.

The wages of sin is not a reward of lesser glory or any glory.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

The wages of sin is not a reward of lesser glory or any glory.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

The wages of sin is death..... Didn't I just say that Eternal ****ation is spiritual "DEATH"???
Once again you are using scripture without a clear understanding of what you are posting.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

The wages of sin is death..... Didn't I just say that Eternal ****ation is spiritual "DEATH"???
Once again you are using scripture without a clear understanding of what you are posting.

Yes, so why are the eternally ****ed in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

They can't progress beyond a certain point. Pretty obvious.

Wicked people are warned about the consequences of sin, and it won't be a Kingdom of Glory!

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Yes, so why are the eternally ****ed in the Terrestrial and Telestial Kingdoms?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

Because in those Kingdoms they will be forever out of the presence of the Father and His glory.... That is called "spiritual death" or ****ation. Whether they are in a gilded cage, or being tortured sitting in a lake of fire does not matter, they will still be spiritually dead!
In essence, there are three levels of Hell or spiritual death, yet there is only one place where both spiritual death and physical death no longer exist. I tend to look at it that way.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Wicked people are warned about the consequences of sin, and it won't be a Kingdom of Glory!

But why??? If under your beliefs being warned about the consequences of sin, or even casting off one's sins after learning about the consequences, will not make the slightest bit of difference as to whether God will save you? Except if God enjoys mocking those He has no intention of saving by dangling a carrot in front of them but never letting them have it.
This demonstrates yet more of the paradoxes and contradictions of your beliefs.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

But why??? If under your beliefs being warned about the consequences of sin, or even casting off one's sins after learning about the consequences, will not make the slightest bit of difference as to whether God will save you? Except if God enjoys mocking those He has no intention of saving by dangling a carrot in front of them but never letting them have it.
This demonstrates yet more of the paradoxes and contradictions of your beliefs.

Maybe, just maybe, you'll come to understand God's methods of bring the elect to Him.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Maybe, just maybe, you'll come to understand God's methods of bring the elect to Him.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

I've asked you to explain it, but so far all you have given me is pla***udes, contradictions, and paradoxes.
Once again my question was a simple one...
What is the point of a changed heart if that does not decide whether one is saved, nor will it cause one to either lose or keep your salvation once you have lt?

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

I've asked you to explain it, but so far all you have given me is pla***udes, contradictions, and paradoxes.
Once again my question was a simple one...
What is the point of a changed heart if that does not decide whether one is saved, nor will it cause one to either lose or keep your salvation once you have lt?

You came here for entertainment and to annoy, but certainly not to learn. If you really wanted to learn something you'd do it on your own.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

So you think Paul lied about there being different degrees of glory?

Paul didn't lie and he didn't teach about three kingdoms with different levels. Paul never used the word Telestial for ANYTHING. The words that Paul wrote came from God.

Paul taught us about two bodies: the natural one that we have on earth (that will decompose) and the spiritual one that is resurrected and immortal. (1 Cor. 15)

Jesus explained that His sheep will be on His right and the wicked (represented as goats) will be on this left. He eternally separates good from evil. (Matt. 25)

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

“Eternal ****ation is the opposite of eternal life, and all those who do not gain eternal life, or exaltation in the highest heaven within the celestial kingdom, are partakers of eternal ****ation. Their eternal condemnation is to have limitations imposed upon them so that they cannot progress to the state of godhood and gain a fulness of all things...

“They are never redeemed from their spiritual fall and taken back into the full presence and glory of God. Only the obedient are ‘raised in immortality unto eternal life.’ The disobedient, ‘they that believe not,’ are raised in immortality ‘unto eternal ****ation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not.’ (D. & C. 29:42–44.)” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 234.)
Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual, (2002), 37

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

You came here for entertainment and to annoy, but certainly not to learn. If you really wanted to learn something you'd do it on your own.

In other words... You can not reconcile your unbiblical paradox, so it must be my fault because I just haven't studied enough???

But then aren't you really blaming God for your failings. Because under your theology of "God does it all" the fact that I do not understand something would have to be because God has not given it to me. Isn't that just like an AntiMormon to blame everybody else including God, but they will never blame themselves and their heretical opinions...
Which puts us back to my original question.

What good does learning something on my own do, if it will not change my status with God one wit, nor will it add to my salvation?
Under your theology, God has either already chosen me for salvation or God has already chosen me for ****ation. Which means that your attempts to change who I am and what I believe right now, would be an attempt to defy God's Will for me, by trying to change me into something that God did not want me to be.
Why do you fight against the will of God by being here?

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Paul was not talking about earthly bodies. Read the chapter. He was talking about our bodies post-resurrection. What they become AFTER this life. The three bodies go to their respective kingdoms. Telestial's root word is teles, a about Greek word, meaning furthest away. Paul described 3 bodies and kingdoms, not 2: those whose glory are comparable to the sun, those to on the moon, and those to the stars.

Yes, let's read the chapter again:

First Paul wants to convince them that there is a resurrection of the dead:

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Why is Paul willing to take such risks as preaching the gospel in places where he might be killed?

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Verses 35-41 speak of all the differences in creation, and humans obviously won't be raised as birds or fish or planets.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

These verses are very important:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is (1)sown in corruption; it is(2) raised in incorruption: 43 It is (1)sown in dishonour; it is (2)raised in glory: it is (1)sown in weakness; it is (2)raised in power: 44 It is (1)sown a natural body; it is(2) raised a spiritual body. (1)There is a natural body, and(2) there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the (1)earthy, we shall also bear the image of the (2)heavenly.

There are two kinds of human bodies: (1)corruptible and (2)incorruptible.

I pray that you see that.

In Kindness and Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Yes, let's read the chapter again:

First Paul wants to convince them that there is a resurrection of the dead:

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Why is Paul willing to take such risks as preaching the gospel in places where he might be killed?

29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die. 33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners. 34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Verses 35-41 speak of all the differences in creation, and humans obviously won't be raised as birds or fish or planets.

35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

These verses are very important:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is (1)sown in corruption; it is(2) raised in incorruption: 43 It is (1)sown in dishonour; it is (2)raised in glory: it is (1)sown in weakness; it is (2)raised in power: 44 It is (1)sown a natural body; it is(2) raised a spiritual body. (1)There is a natural body, and(2) there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the (1)earthy, we shall also bear the image of the (2)heavenly.

There are two kinds of human bodies: (1)corruptible and (2)incorruptible.

I pray that you see that.

In Kindness and Christian Love,

Grandma

You are guilty of the fallacy of "Presentism". In other words, you are guilty of prescribing present day terms and mores to the Bible. You need to understand the Bible as those to which it given would have understood it. Fortunately there exists a lot of writings of the Early Christian Fathers on the meaning of this exact verse.... Here are just a few...

Our understanding of the p***age indeed is, that the Apostle, wishing to describe the great difference among those who rise again in glory, i.e., of the saints, borrowed a comparison from the heavenly bodies, saying, "One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars."
Origen, De Principiis 2:10:2, in ANF 4:294.

Conformably, therefore, there are various abodes, according to the worth of those who have believed . . . . These chosen abodes, which are three, are indicated by the numbers in the Gospel--the thirty, the sixty, the hundred. And the perfect inheritance belongs to those who attain to "a perfect man," according to the image of the Lord . . . . To the likeness of God, then, he that is introduced into adoption and the friendship of God, to the just inheritance of the lords and gods is brought; if he be perfected, according to the Gospel, as the Lord Himself taught.
Clement of Alexandria, Stromata 6:14, in ANF 2:506.

And as the presbyters say, Then those who are deemed worthy of an abode in heaven shall go there, others shall enjoy the delights of paradise, and others shall possess the splendour of the city; for everywhere the Saviour shall be seen according as they who see Him shall be worthy. [They say, moreover], that there is this distinction between the habitation of those who produce an hundred-fold, and that of those who produce sixty-fold, and that of those who produce thirty-fold: for the first will be taken up into the heavens, the second will dwell in paradise, the last will inhabit the city; and that was on this account the Lord declared, "In My Father's house are many mansions." For all things belong to God, who supplies all with a suitable dwelling-place; even as His Word says, that a share is allotted to all by the Father, according as each person is or shall be worthy. And this is the couch on which the guests shall recline, having been invited to the wedding. The presbyters, the disciples of the Apostles, affirm that this is the gradation and arrangement of those who are saved, and that they advance through steps of this nature; also that they ascend through the Spirit to the Son, and through the Son to the Father, and that in due time the Son will yield up His work to the Father, even as it is said by the Apostle, "For He must reign till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:36:1-2, in ANF 1:567, brackets in original.

There are others, so if you want to know the truth then simply research it further.
And as I have already told you, do not rely on Evangelical commentaries or understandings of theBible, they tend to make things up to try and fit their heresies.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

You are guilty of the fallacy of "Presentism". In other words, you are guilty of prescribing present day terms and mores to the Bible. You need to understand the Bible as those to which it given would have understood it. Fortunately there exists a lot of writings of the Early Christian Fathers on the meaning of this exact verse.... Here are just a few...


There are others, so if you want to know the truth then simply research it further.
And as I have already told you, do not rely on Evangelical commentaries or understandings of theBible, they tend to make things up to try and fit their heresies.

I didn't use an Evangelical commentary --- I relied on the Holy Spirit. You are using heresies to support your false teachings.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

I didn't use an Evangelical commentary --- I relied on the Holy Spirit. You are using heresies to support your false teachings.

What heresies? You must think that Early Church Fathers such as Clement of Alexandrea, Origen, Irenaeus, and John Chrysostom were heretics then! If that is true then there must have been a complete apostisy from the faith early on.
The belief in Three or Seven Heavens has long been a Judeo-Christian belief up till about the fifth or sixth Century when it was replaced by a more pagan Greek philosophy. In fact the arguements against this revelation by Joseph Smith's early critics was that he must of stole the idea from some Bible Scholar or he must have got ahold of a book on Early Christian beliefs somewhere.
Haven't you wondered why the only argument you could find against it on your AntiMormon site, was not that such a doctrine never existed amoung the early Church, but some weak argument that Joseph Smith simply made-up the name for the Telestial Kingdom because it wasn't in the Bible?
I also find it telling that you did not have any evidence to refute me and thereby put the big mean Mormon in his place. Instead you say that the "Holy Ghost told me so" thereby you think this allows you to ignore all historical facts or Bible truths.... Critics love to say this about us.
As I said, I'm three steps ahead of you, I know the aurguments you are going to cookie cut from your AntiMormon sites before you do.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

What heresies? You must think that Early Church Fathers such as Clement of Alexandrea, Origen, Irenaeus, and John Chrysostom were heretics then! If that is true then there must have been a complete apostisy from the faith early on.

Why would you say there was a complete apostasy? Did all of those men have the Holy Spirit? Are their writings scripture?

Originally Posted by theway

The belief in Three or Seven Heavens has long been a Judeo-Christian belief up till about the fifth or sixth Century when it was replaced by a more pagan Greek philosophy.

Where does the Bible says that every heaven is a dwelling place for resurrected humans? No where! Jesus never once taught that.

Originally Posted by theway

In fact the arguements against this revelation by Joseph Smith's early critics was that he must of stole the idea from some Bible Scholar or he must have got ahold of a book on Early Christian beliefs somewhere.

I don't care one iota what his critica rhought or said.

Originally Posted by theway

Haven't you wondered why the only argument you could find against it on your AntiMormon site, was not that such a doctrine never existed amoung the early Church, but some weak argument that Joseph Smith simply made-up the name for the Telestial Kingdom because it wasn't in the Bible?

I don't need sites that are critical of Mormonism. I use lds.org.

Originally Posted by theway

I also find it telling that you did not have any evidence to refute me and thereby put the big mean Mormon in his place.

Are you the big mean Mormon you're referring to? If you are, should I tremble? Paul didn't concern himself with those who didn't like him and had power to put him in prison. He knew what the Lord had called him to do and he went out and did it.

Originally Posted by theway

Instead you say that the "Holy Ghost told me so" thereby you think this allows you to ignore all historical facts or Bible truths....

History isn't always accurate.

Originally Posted by theway

Critics love to say this about us.
As I said, I'm three steps ahead of you, I know the aurguments you are going to cookie cut from your AntiMormon sites before you do.

I'm not even here to argue. What exactly is it that critics say about you?


In Chtistian Love,

Grandma