Eternal ****ation

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Why would you say there was a complete apostasy? Did all of those men have the Holy Spirit? Are their writings scripture?

Well obviously if your contention is that the belief in multiple degrees of Heaven, or that works such as water baptism being required to enter Heaven are heretical beliefs; then you are in fact saying that all of early Christianity was in a complete apostasy as every one of the early Christian Fathers, and all the early writings of the Christian Church dealing with these questions, were universal in the teachings that both were true.
Your interpretation of the Bible is a modern interpretation. Unfortunately, most new interpretation and versions of the Bible happen to be Evangelical or Calvanist in nature and either completely interpret it wrong, or water scripture down to the point where it is meaningless and contradictory.
And yes, many of the Early Church Father's writings were taken as scriptures in the early Church; as well as other books which did not make it into the Modern Protestant version of the Bible. Books such as The Shephard, which talked about multiple Heavens, was considered scripture or as an instruction manual for new believers in Christ clear up until the Sixth Century. Once again you are guilty of the fallacy of Presentism by thinking that the Bible the way you have it was the Bible the same way as the rest of Christianity has had it. In fact your 66 book version of the Bible was only put together less than 200 years ago, and even today is used by a minority of Christians.

Originally Posted by Grandma

Where does the Bible says that every heaven is a dwelling place for resurrected humans? No where! Jesus never once taught that.

what are you talking about??? You yourself posted it...

1 Cor. 40-41
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

And here...

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

And here...

2Cor. 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Originally Posted by Grandma

I don't need sites that are critical of Mormonism. I use lds.org.

The scriptures may be from the Bible or from the LDS, however every one of your arguments, interpretations, and theories against the LDS you use are straight out of the AntiMormon playbook. This is how I always know what you are going to say next.

Originally Posted by Grandma

History isn't always accurate.

True... However isn't it a convenient coincidence that every bit of history which discredits you is wrong, but every bit of history that you agree with is right? I will take history at face value and let the chips fall where they may. I don't always agree with history, but unlike you, I don't deny that that is what they may have believed was the truth.

Originally Posted by Grandma

I'm not even here to argue.
In Chtistian Love,
Grandma

What you mean is that you do not want to argue, however, you want us to just sit here and say "thank you sir, may I have another?". That does not fly here, if you make an accusation or state a belief, you'd better be able to back it up.
Yet you have not even given us as little as your own opinion. All you do is post useless pla***udes, cookie cut opinions of others, "the Holy Ghost told me so", or you post scripture which has nothing to do with the conversation and without telling us your interpretation of them. All this tells us is that you have no real understanding of what you are talking about.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Correct verses, incorrect explanation. Literally right after the 3 glories are compared to the sun, moon, and stars Paul refers to them as the bodies of the resurrected, the ones of incorruption. To give an example, the ancient Testament of Levi, a document from the BC era, testifies that there is not one heaven, but multiple heavens.

Christ names only one heaven and one hell as destinations of the righteous(sheep) and the wicked(goats).

The righteous(all His sheep) have all spiritual blessings. Do Mormons reject what doesn't fit with Joseph Smith's ideas?

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Christ names only one heaven and one hell as destinations of the righteous(sheep) and the wicked(goats).

The righteous(all His sheep) have all spiritual blessings......
Grandma

so true....

Good post!

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so true....

Good post!

That is not true and has never been true... I have no idea where you got that nonsense???

[Christian]

Originally Posted by childofgod

To be halted in one's progression. The root word in ****ation is dam, the same word with the same meaning as to what beavers and people build. A dam stops the flow of water, eternal ****ation stops the flow of progression. Many evangelicals erroneously believe it means to face hellfire forever, even going so far as to believe souls will literally be on fire forever. Since ****ation is from God, the Eternal One, it is called eternal ****ation, indicating who gives the punishment.

So the mormons think '****ation' means a 'country that is cursed?' HOW STUPID IS THAT? as Jay Leno would say!!!!!!


When CHRISTIANS refer to eternal ****ation, they might be talking about the following p***ages:

Mark 9:43-44
It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched — 44 where
'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.'
NKJV


Mark 9:45-46
It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched — 46 where
'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.'
NKJV


Mark 9:47-48
It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire — 48 where
'Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.'
NKJV

Matt 25:46
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
NKJV

Of course mormons (ignorant in the Scriptures) don't understand. . .

It has nothing at all to do with 'progression' or your desire to attain 'godhood' for yourself (a SELFISH desire if there ever was one).

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Wrong again. Read all the scriptures, not just some. Deuteronomy 10, 1 Kings 8, 2 Chronicles 2 and 6, Nehamiah 9, and Psalms 68, 115, and 148 refer to the "heaven of heavens" or do these not count since they prove you wrong?

There are heavens that are not dwelling places of God and His righteous followers. The heaven of heavens is where God dwells.

Psalm 102:25 “Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.”

The earth's atmosphere is called the heavens: Deuteronomy 28:12: “The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.”

Outer space is a heaven: Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

God's dwelling place is called heaven or heaven of heavens. 1 Kings 8:30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

There are heavens that are not dwelling places of God and His righteous followers. The heaven of heavens is where God dwells.

Psalm 102:25 “Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.”

The earth's atmosphere is called the heavens: Deuteronomy 28:12: “The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.”

Outer space is a heaven: Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

God's dwelling place is called heaven or heaven of heavens. 1 Kings 8:30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

Simply spouting the same erroneous theories by modern Evangelicals who do not understand the Bible does not impress me, or anyone else. This understanding was only made up a few years ago.
I already gave you the meaning of the verses as it was meant to be understood... If you still wish to crawl up in the fetal position, rock back and forth saying "it's not true... It's not true" that is your prerogative.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

Simply spouting the same erroneous theories by modern Evangelicals who do not understand the Bible does not impress me, or anyone else. This understanding was only made up a few years ago.
I already gave you the meaning of the verses as it was meant to be understood... If you still wish to crawl up in the fetal position, rock back and forth saying "it's not true... It's not true" that is your prerogative.

I wasn't aware that I had to impress you. You ignore truth and think I'm here to impress people?

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Second, becoming gods is an ancient doctrine that was WIDELY taught in the original church. Its called deification. The early church fathers taught this doctrine as it comes from...you guessed it...the scriptures.

They taught theosis which refers to men becoming completely sanctified. Talk to an Orthodox priest. He knows more about it than Mormons do. The scriptures were WIDELY taught. Becoming gods was NEVER taught! You're ignoring the scripture in Isaiah 43:10. The early Christians didn't and the Eastern Orthodox don't.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Originally Posted by childofgod

Of course Mormons, having been ranked more knowledgeable of the Bible than any other Christian denomination, understand.

I don't see that in my Bible. Denominations have groups of believers, newly converted Christians, and unbelievers. You can claim that your church has more knowledge thereby pretending superiority, but the Holy Spirit speaks to genuine Christians who love God's word.

Psalm 119:11
"Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee."

Happy Labor Day!

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

What scripture indicates the kingdom of God and outer space are the only heavens? None

I NEVER said there are only two heavens. Rain comes from clouds --- the atmosphere around the earth.

Outer space is referred to as the firmament of heaven; it's filled with heavenly bodies.

heavenly body › any ​object ​existing in ​space, ​especially a ​planet, ​star, or the ​moon
(Definition of heavenly body from the Cambridge Advanced Learner’s Dictionary & Thesaurus © Cambridge University Press)


God's dwelling place is the third heaven.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Grandma

There are heavens that are not dwelling places of God and His righteous followers. The heaven of heavens is where God dwells.

Psalm 102:25 “Of old You laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.”

The earth's atmosphere is called the heavens: Deuteronomy 28:12: “The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands.”

Outer space is a heaven: Genesis 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

God's dwelling place is called heaven or heaven of heavens. 1 Kings 8:30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

God IS THERE in all of the heavens you mentioned.

The Jews knew three heavens. . .

the sky where the birts flew

the sky where the sun, moon, and stars are

and God's home.

Pretty much like you said, yet GOD IS THERE all of the time in the first two heavens.

[Christian]

the kid posted:
becoming gods is an ancient doctrine that was WIDELY taught in the original church. Its called deification. The early church fathers taught this doctrine as it comes from...you guessed it...the scriptures.

More than one heretic has taught such a thing. You cannot quote ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that says you can be 'exalted to godhood,' and no CHRISTIAN fathers taught any such thing.

I noticed you are PATENTLY UNABLE to find ONE MENTION OF YOUR "exaltation to godhood" in ANY CHURCH FATHER OF THE FIRST CENTURY, AND OF COURSE

You CANNOT CITE ANYTHING AT ALL to support your made-up claims.

Of course Mormons, having been ranked more knowledgeable of the Bible than any other Christian denomination, understand.

THAT is the FUNNIEST JOKE I HAVE HEARD IN A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG TIME!

You mormons may 'rank' yourselves any way you want, but your 'ranking' is a joke. NOBODY believes you except your mormon cronies.

As for knowledge of the Bible, most BAPTISTS, or LUTHERANS or PRESBYTERIANS know MULTIPLE TIMES what your average mormons know.

A pathetic LACK OF SCRIPTURAL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING is why mormons can't leave their cult.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by Christian

God IS THERE in all of the heavens you mentioned.

The Jews knew three heavens. . .

the sky where the birts flew

the sky where the sun, moon, and stars are

and God's home.

Pretty much like you said, yet GOD IS THERE all of the time in the first two heavens.

It's true that God is omnipresent, but some verses say: "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." John 14:3

"Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me." John 7:33


Love in Christ,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Justin Martyr:
"To prove to you that the Holy Ghost reproaches men because they were made like God, free from suffering and death, provided that they kept His commandments, and were deemed deserving of the name of His sons... in the beginning men were made like God, free from suffering and death, and that they are thus deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest."

"[By Psalm 82] it is demonstrated that all men are deemed worthy of becoming “gods,” and even of having power to become sons of the Highest."
Hippolytus:
"Now in all these acts He offered up, as the first-fruits, His own manhood, in order that thou, when thou art in tribulation, mayest not be disheartened, but, confessing thyself to be a man (of like nature with the Redeemer,) mayest dwell in expectation of also receiving what the Father has granted unto this Son...The Deity (by condescension) does not diminish anything of the dignity of His divine perfection having made you even God unto his glory."

Athanasius:
"The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods....just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through His flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life...[we are] sons and gods by reason of the word in us."

"For as Christ died and was exalted as man, so, as man, is He said to take what, as God, He ever had, that even such a grant of grace might reach to us. For the Word was not impaired in receiving a body, that He should seek to receive a grace, but rather He deified that which He put on, and more than that, gave it graciously to the race of man."

Augustine:
"But He himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying He makes sons of God. For He has given them power to become the sons of God, (John 1:12). If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods."

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
2 Corinthians 5:21

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
2 Thessalonians 2:13

"Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Corinthians 1:8

Those are words from God instead of man.


Love because of Christ,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
2 Corinthians 5:21


Love because of Christ,

Grandma

Ask a priest??? He just gave you multiple quotes from Priests...
What you probably meant was to say was... Ask a Priest that you agree with.
Becoming a god is the goal of every believer in Christ... (These are not my words)
The problem with some modern Christians is that they have forgotten this; although the majority of Christians still have it on their books as a belief, they just don't preach it any more.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

Ask a priest??? He just gave you multiple quotes from Priests...
What you probably meant was to say was... Ask a Priest that you agree with.
Becoming a god is the goal of every believer in Christ... (These are not my words)
The problem with some modern Christians is that they have forgotten this; although the majority of Christians still have it on their books as a belief, they just don't preach it any more.

Pfft! ....It's so simple to be wise. Just think of something stupid to say and then don't say it.

Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

The men I quoted were influential in the spread of true Christianity. The scriptures you quoted do not negate what these men taught. Do your research on ancient Christianity and every person I quoted will come up multiple times because of how important they were. FYI, these men backed their teachings with the real meanings of scripture.

It makes no difference what I post. I've already refuted your false doctrine. You can't honestly say that men who, according to Mormonism, were apostates without the gift of the Holy Ghost and without the authority to run the Mormon idea of church, were spreading true Christianity.

"During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Parts of the holy scriptures were corrupted or lost, and no one had the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost or perform other priesthood ordinances."

Topics lds.org

The (Nonexistent) Great Apostasy

The Mormon response is to claim that the Church fell into total and complete apostasy after the death of the last apostle. Moreover, Mormons maintain that biblical texts like Amos 8:11-14 and 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 (which we will examine below), among others, positively teach this to be so. Thus, the LDS contends that the true church of Christ did not exist at all for some 1,800 years and then was re-established through another testament given to Joseph Smith and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

A great place to begin a discussion is with the biblical texts used by Mormons in an attempt to demonstrate their position. The prophet Amos prophesied in Israel ca. 785 B.C. Among other things, he warned of the coming destruction that did, in fact, occur in 721 B.C. because of Israel’s idolatry (see chapters 6 and 7). Amos 8:11-14 reads:

"Behold, the days are coming," says the Lord God, "when I will send a famine on the land; not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. They shall wander from sea to sea, and from north to east; they shall run to and fro, to seek the word of the Lord, but they shall not find it."

This text speaks of an apostasy in ancient Israel, not after the death of the last apostle in the New Testament. But even this apostasy was not total; it does not qualify as the apostasy Mormons claim. In chapter 9, Amos makes this very clear.

"Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from the surface of the ground; except that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob," says the Lord. "For lo, I will command, and shake the house of Israel among all the nations as one shakes with a sieve, but no pebble shall fall to the ground. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, who say, ‘Evil shall not overtake or meet us.’" (Amos 9:8-10)

catholic.com/magazine

I copied that because my chair is uncomfortable and I don't feel like typing. It's ridiculous to claim that Christ's Church fell into complete apostasy and even more ridiculous to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I'm truly sorry that you don't know the true Gospel that Jesus brought.

In Christian love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

It makes no difference what I post. I've already refuted your false doctrine. You can't honestly say that men who, according to Mormonism, were apostates without the gift of the Holy Ghost and without the authority to run the Mormon idea of church, were spreading true Christianity.

"During the Great Apostasy, people were without divine direction from living prophets. Many churches were established, but they did not have priesthood power to lead people to the true knowledge of God the Father and Jesus Christ. Parts of the holy scriptures were corrupted or lost, and no one had the authority to confer the gift of the Holy Ghost or perform other priesthood ordinances."

Topics lds.org

You don't get it... The apostasy was not all about incorrect doctrine, the apostisy happened because of the loss of Authority. Sometimes it wasn't always the fault of the Church.
But then that's the paradox you live in, not us. If the Early Christian Fathers believed things which were incorrect, then for those which understand the Bible we are able to recognize that, and take it for what it's worth. You on the other hand do not have that option, because either the Early Christian Fathers were right about doctrine THEY ALL AGREED ON such as: the need of a priesthood, Water Baptism being required for salvation, Faith plus works, Three Degrees of Heaven, men becoming gods, Etc.... or they were ALL wrong. Which means they would have all been in a universal apostasy of the truth, according to you

You can't have it both ways.

Originally Posted by Grandma

catholic.com/magazine

I copied that because my chair is uncomfortable and I don't feel like typing. It's ridiculous to claim that Christ's Church fell into complete apostasy and even more ridiculous to believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I'm truly sorry that you don't know the true Gospel that Jesus brought.

In Christian love,
Grandma

LOL.... I see that you consider the Catholics as a good source of true doctrine... Well then, let's see what the Catholics believe about becoming gods shall we....

Catechism of the Catholic Church
460 The Word became flesh to make us "partakers of the divine nature":78 "For this is why the Word became man, and the Son of God became the Son of man: so that man, by entering into communion with the Word and thus receiving divine sonship, might become a son of God."79 "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."80 "The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, ***umed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods."81

Or perhaps you'll believe a Modern Christian like C. S. Lewis.

"The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were "gods" and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him—for we can prevent Him, if we choose—He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said." C.S. Lewis.

Like I said, your beliefs are the beliefs of a heretical minority. It really isn't all your fault because this is what they told you to believe and to say. However if you are going to continue to try and school us Mormons on what the Bible really says... Then I suggest you find out what the Bible is really saying first.

[Christian]

cog posted:

Originally Posted by Christianthe kid posted:
becoming gods is an ancient doctrine that was WIDELY taught in the original church. Its called deification. The early church fathers taught this doctrine as it comes from...you guessed it...the scriptures.

More than one heretic has taught such a thing. You cannot quote ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that says you can be 'exalted to godhood,' and no CHRISTIAN fathers taught any such thing.

I noticed you are PATENTLY UNABLE to find ONE MENTION OF YOUR "exaltation to godhood" in ANY CHURCH FATHER OF THE FIRST CENTURY, AND OF COURSE

You CANNOT CITE ANYTHING AT ALL to support your made-up claims.

Of course Mormons, having been ranked more knowledgeable of the Bible than any other Christian denomination, understand.

THAT is the FUNNIEST JOKE I HAVE HEARD IN A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG TIME!

You mormons may 'rank' yourselves any way you want, but your 'ranking' is a joke. NOBODY believes you except your mormon cronies.

As for knowledge of the Bible, most BAPTISTS, or LUTHERANS or PRESBYTERIANS know MULTIPLE TIMES what your average mormons know.

A pathetic LACK OF SCRIPTURAL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING is why mormons can't leave their cult

.

http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u...wledge-survey/
Guess again. Statistics found in the website.

Irenaeus:
"While man gradually advances and mounts towards perfection; that is, he approaches the eternal. The eternal is perfect; and this is God. Man has first to come into being, then to progress, and by progressing come to manhood, and having reached manhood to increase, and thus increasing to persevere, and persevering to be glorified, and thus see his Lord."

"there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption....Since, therefore, this is sure and stedfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption."

"We were not made gods at our beginning, but first we were made men, then, in the end, gods."

"How then will any be a god, if he has not first been made a man? How can any be perfect when he has only lately been made man? How immortal, if he has not in his mortal nature obeyed his maker? For one's duty is first to observe the discipline of man and thereafter to share in the glory of God."

"Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Word of God, of his boundless love, became what we are that he might make us what he himself is."

"But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, "I have said, Ye are gods, and all sons of the Most High." To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the "adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father."

"For he who holds, without pride and boasting, the true glory (opinion) regarding created things and the Creator, who is the Almighty God of all, and who has granted existence to all; [such an one, ] continuing in His love and subjection, and giving of thanks, shall also receive from Him the greater glory of promotion, looking forward to the time when he shall become like Him who died for him, for He, too, "was made in the likeness of sinful flesh," to condemn sin, and to cast it, as now a condemned thing, away beyond the flesh, but that He might call man forth into His own likeness, ***igning him as [His own] imitator to God, and imposing on him His Father's law, in order that he may see God, and granting him power to receive the Father; [being] the Word of God who dwelt in man, and became the Son of man, that He might accustom man to receive God, and God to dwell in man, according to the good pleasure of the Father."

Let's see now. . .WHAT do we have here?

NOTHING AT ALL FROM SCRIPTURE (so much for mormon's 'great knowledge of scripture').

A link to the Pew research center, but NOT TO ANY OF THESE SUPPOSED 'quotes.'

NOT ONE SINGLE CITATION TO ANYTHING ACTUALLY WRITTEN BY IRENAEUS.

Nothing but supposed quotes of a man's OPINION, from a man who wasn't even BORN until about 100 years after Christ's crucifiction.

Lots of OPINIONS, NO CITATIONS, NO SCRIPTURE.

So much for the supposedly 'more scripturally knowledgable' mormons who have ZERO to hang their hats on.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Christian

the kid posted:
becoming gods is an ancient doctrine that was WIDELY taught in the original church. Its called deification. The early church fathers taught this doctrine as it comes from...you guessed it...the scriptures.

More than one heretic has taught such a thing. You cannot quote ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE that says you can be 'exalted to godhood,' and no CHRISTIAN fathers taught any such thing.

I noticed you are PATENTLY UNABLE to find ONE MENTION OF YOUR "exaltation to godhood" in ANY CHURCH FATHER OF THE FIRST CENTURY, AND OF COURSE

You CANNOT CITE ANYTHING AT ALL to support your made-up claims.

Of course Mormons, having been ranked more knowledgeable of the Bible than any other Christian denomination, understand.

THAT is the FUNNIEST JOKE I HAVE HEARD IN A LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG TIME!

You mormons may 'rank' yourselves any way you want, but your 'ranking' is a joke. NOBODY believes you except your mormon cronies.

As for knowledge of the Bible, most BAPTISTS, or LUTHERANS or PRESBYTERIANS know MULTIPLE TIMES what your average mormons know.

A pathetic LACK OF SCRIPTURAL KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING is why mormons can't leave their cult.

I noticed you have not come up with ONE SINGLE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN who ever taught your 'exaltation to godhood' fairytale. BTW Irenaeus didn't teach it. You cannot offer one CITATION from him that says he did. And of course he was born in AD 125, didn't likely write anything until about AD 150, over a hundred years AFTER the first century Christians followed CHRIST (not him).

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

I noticed you have not come up with ONE SINGLE FIRST CENTURY CHRISTIAN who ever taught your 'exaltation to godhood' fairytale. BTW Irenaeus didn't teach it. You cannot offer one CITATION from him that says he did. And of course he was born in AD 125, didn't likely write anything until about AD 150, over a hundred years AFTER the first century Christians followed CHRIST (not him).

Thanks for pointing out that Irenaeus was born only 35-65 years after the first books of the New Testament were written and would of better of been able to understand its meanings given that he also said he got his knowledge from those who were actually taught by the Apostles themselves....
I'll take that understanding over someone 2000 years latter who contradicts everything that the Early Christians believed to have been true, and who completely ignores the Bible as it was meant to be understood.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u...wledge-survey/
Guess again. Statistics found in the website.

Let's see now. . .WHAT do we have here?

Yes let's see...
Seems that if you consider Mormons to be Christian, then Mormons know more about the Bible than any other Christian group.

However if you believe Mormons to not be Christian, than every group who you would consider Non-Christian knows more about religion than you do, and the Mormons still know more about the Bible...

Either way you look at it, I don't think I'd be bragging if I were you...

[disciple]

Originally Posted by theway

Yes let's see...
Seems that if you consider Mormons to be Christian, then Mormons know more about the Bible than any other Christian group.

I'm glad you guys know more about the Bible and since I can't seem to find it can you show me where the Bible talks about a Mother God and the part where Jesus is the brother of satan.

[theway]

Originally Posted by disciple

I'm glad you guys know more about the Bible and since I can't seem to find it can you show me where the Bible talks about a Mother God and the part where Jesus is the brother of satan.

It doesn't... However what's that have to do with Bible knowledge???

[disciple]

Originally Posted by theway

It doesn't... However what's that have to do with Bible knowledge???

So if its not in the Bible why do you believe it?