Eternal ****ation

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

So far you've refuted nothing any Mormons have said on here. You never disproved deification. The verses you quoted didn't do what you hoped because you get them.

To believe the Great Apostasy never happened is to completely ignore history and the Bible itself. The Bible testifies of the Great Apostasy and says it HAD to happen (it was prophesied even by Jesus himself) and history proves it. That's where the Dark Ages comes from.

Doctrines such as the trinity and ex niliho are evidence that the church fell. False doctrines were created, people were killing in the name of Jesus (not out of real defense, but as an excuse to justify persecution) etc. To believe the Great Apostasy never happened is absurd and a denial of the scriptures. God himself told me Joseph Smith was a prophet, therefore, he was. Just because you don't want him to be doesn't mean he wasn't. Anti's are disproven time after time while you guys remain in complete denial.

I'm grateful to have the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ in my life and pray you will one day come into the fold of the Good Shepherd.

Joseph Smith was either delusional or a liar. "No man hath seen God at any time." Mormons ignore the parts of the Bible that contradict their man made doctrines. They teach there is a mul***ude of gods and that obedient Mormons can become gods and create their own planets. Joseph Smith called the God of the Bible a MONSTER!

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 43:10

But for the grace of God, I'd be lost following a man made system of beliefs. I pray that you'll find the peace that p***es all understanding --- it is found in the true God.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

Thanks for pointing out that Irenaeus was born only 35-65 years after the first books of the New Testament were written and would of better of been able to understand its meanings given that he also said he got his knowledge from those who were actually taught by the Apostles themselves....
I'll take that understanding over someone 2000 years latter who contradicts everything that the Early Christians believed to have been true, and who completely ignores the Bible as it was meant to be understood.

A person born at the same time you were wouldn't necessarily believe the doctrines you were taught. Your perspective doesn't hold water.

Following Jesus,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

A person born at the same time you were wouldn't necessarily believe the doctrines you were taught. Your perspective doesn't hold water.

Following Jesus,

Grandma

Yes we would, if we were both Mormons we would have the same CORE Beliefs. I have been all over the world in hundreds of LDS Churches, the style of delivery is sometimes different, but the doctrine taught is exactly the same.

What you refuse to acknowledge is that they were ALL Christians and ALL the writings of the Early Church and ALL The Early Church Fathers were united on Core beliefs such as: The Three degrees of Heaven, men can become gods, water baptism is a requirement of salvation, Priesthood Authority is required, and it requires both Faith plus Works. So either they were all right, or they were all in a complete apostasy of true doctrine?

Which is it?

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

Joseph Smith was either delusional or a liar. "No man hath seen God at any time." Mormons ignore the parts of the Bible that contradict their man made doctrines. They teach there is a mul***ude of gods and that obedient Mormons can become gods and create their own planets.

LOL... Ironically you have just shown how you ignore the many parts of the Bible which say that men have seen God face to face, in favor of the one verse that seems to agree with your false beliefs. But then, how can you explain how God is One, and also state that there were many people who have seen Jesus Christ? But that no one has seen God... Is Jesus Christ not the God you worship?

Originally Posted by Grandma

Joseph Smith called the God of the Bible a MONSTER!

Again not true...

Originally Posted by Grandma

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 43:10

Once again you have misinterpreted the scripture you posted. This is not in reference to a numerical one, but this is stating a preeminence or superiority, much the way it still does today. We know this because everywhere else in the Bible where this same rhetoric is used, it is in reference to a superiority or greatness, and not to the number one... (See Isaiah 47:8-10)

Originally Posted by Grandma

But for the grace of God, I'd be lost following a man made system of beliefs. I pray that you'll find the peace that p***es all understanding --- it is found in the true God.

In Christian Love,

Grandma

That's contradictory in your false "God does it all" beliefs. Under your false belief system it would be impossible for me to find peace by me reading the Bible, as that is a work and would result in no gain. If I am not one of the prechossen, then your prayers are an unholy attempt to change Gods will... And since you do not know Gods will, then wouldn't it be better for you to remain silent?

But then I've already found peace in the true God... So again, just who are you trying to convince?

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

You don't get it... The apostasy was not all about incorrect doctrine, the apostisy happened because of the loss of Authority. Sometimes it wasn't always the fault of the Church.
But then that's the paradox you live in, not us. If the Early Christian Fathers believed things which were incorrect, then for those which understand the Bible we are able to recognize that, and take it for what it's worth. You on the other hand do not have that option, because either the Early Christian Fathers were right about doctrine THEY ALL AGREED ON such as: the need of a priesthood, Water Baptism being required for salvation, Faith plus works, Three Degrees of Heaven, men becoming gods, Etc.... or they were ALL wrong. Which means they would have all been in a universal apostasy of the truth, according to you.

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

"Soon pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The Roman emperor adopted this false Christianity as the state religion. This church was very different from the church Jesus organized. It taught that God was a being without form or substance."
"Chapter 16: The Church of Jesus Christ in Former Times," Gospel Principles, (2009)

The gospel of Jesus Christ was lost from the earth through the apostasy that took place following the earthly ministry of Christ’s Apostles.
Restoration of the Gospel, lds.org

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13: 24-29


The ECF were not apostles or prophets.

Originally Posted by theway

You can't have it both ways.

LOL.... I see that you consider the Catholics as a good source of true doctrine... Well then, let's see what the Catholics believe about becoming gods shall we....

I don't believe in Catholicism. My back hurt at that time and I was too uncomfortable to stay at the computer. What I posted was correct information.


The Bible is our yardstick for measuring truth, not men.


Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

You obviously don't know what you're talking about.

"Soon pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The Roman emperor adopted this false Christianity as the state religion. This church was very different from the church Jesus organized. It taught that God was a being without form or substance."
"Chapter 16: The Church of Jesus Christ in Former Times," Gospel Principles, (2009)

The gospel of Jesus Christ was lost from the earth through the apostasy that took place following the earthly ministry of Christ’s Apostles.
Restoration of the Gospel, lds.org

24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.

25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.

26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.

28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.

29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.
Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 13: 24-29

None of what you posted addresses my question or concern. You're back to your old trick of posting irrelevant scriptures and quotes in order to not have to deal with the truth.

My question was simple... Are the core beliefs of the Early Christian Church correct when it came to multiple heavens of glory, priesthood authority, Faith plus Works, water baptism, men becoming gods ... Or were they ALL in apostasy?
Please answer if you dare...

Originally Posted by Grandma

The ECF were not apostles or prophets.

So you're throwing the Early Christian Fathers under the Evangelical bus I see.
However claiming that Early Christians did not have the proper authority or calling from God hardly helps your case any don't you think????

Originally Posted by Grandma

I don't believe in Catholicism. My back hurt at that time and I was too uncomfortable to stay at the computer. What I posted was correct information.

Wow... Now your throwing Catholics under the Evangelical bus also. Well that brings your beliefs down to a 40% minority viewpoint right there. Now when you take those who do not believe in Faith Alone out of that 40% that leaves you in the 9-12% minority viewpoint of doctrine of all those who call themselves Christian.

Originally Posted by Grandma

The Bible is our yardstick for measuring truth, not men.
Love,
Grandma

The Bible is not the yardstick for determining truth... It never has been; maybe that's your problem.
The Bible is a tool, like a yardstick is a tool but it's not the tool one uses to determine what is truth. That *** belongs exclusively to the Holy Ghost.
Christ told us that it is revelation of the Holy Ghost on which His Church will be built.
You are completely deficient in simple Biblical understanding.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

So far you've refuted nothing any Mormons have said on here. You never disproved deification. The verses you quoted didn't do what you hoped because you get them.

To believe the Great Apostasy never happened is to completely ignore history and the Bible itself. The Bible testifies of the Great Apostasy and says it HAD to happen (it was prophesied even by Jesus himself) and history proves it. That's where the Dark Ages comes from.

Doctrines such as the trinity and ex niliho are evidence that the church fell. False doctrines were created, people were killing in the name of Jesus (not out of real defense, but as an excuse to justify persecution) etc. To believe the Great Apostasy never happened is absurd and a denial of the scriptures. God himself told me Joseph Smith was a prophet, therefore, he was. Just because you don't want him to be doesn't mean he wasn't. Anti's are disproven time after time while you guys remain in complete denial.

I'm grateful to have the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ in my life and pray you will one day come into the fold of the Good Shepherd.

We have disproven your evil doctrine of men becoming gods! Isaiah 43:10.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

None of what you posted addresses my question or concern. You're back to your old trick of posting irrelevant scriptures and quotes in order to not have to deal with the truth.

My question was simple... Are the core beliefs of the Early Christian Church correct when it came to multiple heavens of glory, priesthood authority, Faith plus Works, water baptism, men becoming gods ... Or were they ALL in apostasy?
Please answer if you dare...


So you're throwing the Early Christian Fathers under the Evangelical bus I see.
However claiming that Early Christians did not have the proper authority or calling from God hardly helps your case any don't you think????

Wow... Now your throwing Catholics under the Evangelical bus also. Well that brings your beliefs down to a 40% minority viewpoint right there. Now when you take those who do not believe in Faith Alone out of that 40% that leaves you in the 9-12% minority viewpoint of doctrine of all those who call themselves Christian.


Wow... Now your throwing Catholics under the Evangelical bus also. Well that brings your beliefs down to a 40% minority viewpoint right there. Now when you take those who do not believe in Faith Alone out of that 40% that leaves you in the 9-12% minority viewpoint of doctrine of all those who call themselves Christian.


The Bible is not the yardstick for determining truth... It never has been; maybe that's your problem.
The Bible is a tool, like a yardstick is a tool but it's not the tool one uses to determine what is truth. That *** belongs exclusively to the Holy Ghost.
Christ told us that it is revelation of the Holy Ghost on which His Church will be built.
You are completely deficient in simple Biblical understanding.

I didn't throw Catholics under any bus. Mormons don’t believe in Catholicism either. I've visited Catholic churches and cathedrals, attended m***, I've been to the Vatican, toured the Sistine Chapel, watched Catholics kiss the feet of a statue of Saint Peter, had kindness shown to me by a Catholic priest, Father Leddy, and been molested by a Catholic chaplain's ***istant. Now let's look at Mormon history regarding Catholics --- no I'm not interested; another Christian can remind you of that.

Originally Posted by theway

LOL... Ironically you have just shown how you ignore the many parts of the Bible which say that men have seen God face to face, in favor of the one verse that seems to agree with your false beliefs. But then, how can you explain how God is One, and also state that there were many people who have seen Jesus Christ? But that no one has seen God... Is Jesus Christ not the God you worship?

Who has seen the Father? Who do I worship? I worship the Triune God described in the Bible.

What did Jesus say and was He telling the truth?

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he[Jesus] which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Originally Posted by theway

That's contradictory in your false "God does it all" beliefs. Under your false belief system it would be impossible for me to find peace by me reading the Bible, as that is a work and would result in no gain. If I am not one of the prechossen, then your prayers are an unholy attempt to change Gods will... And since you do not know Gods will, then wouldn't it be better for you to remain silent?

But then I've already found peace in the true God... So again, just who are you trying to convince?

I’ve told Mormons many times that I’m not trying to usurp the Holy Spirit Who convinces men of truth.

Praying for sinners is not an unholy attempt to change God’s will. We are instructed to pray for others. You obviously don’t know your Bible nor do you know my “belief system” as you want to call my faith.

“Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.”

Matthew 5:44
“But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;”

Originally Posted by theway

That's contradictory in your false "God does it all" beliefs.

John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Revelation 14:1
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Ephesians 1:9
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

1 Corinthians 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

1 Corinthians 15:19
But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

2 Corinthians 3:5
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

Originally Posted by theway

Under your false belief system it would be impossible for me to find peace by me reading the Bible, as that is a work and would result in no gain.

You aren’t omniscient, are you? How do you know who is chosen and who isn’t?

Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

I didn't throw Catholics under any bus. Mormons don’t believe in Catholicism either. I've visited Catholic churches and cathedrals, attended m***, I've been to the Vatican, toured the Sistine Chapel, watched Catholics kiss the feet of a statue of Saint Peter, had kindness shown to me by a Catholic priest, Father Leddy, and been molested by a Catholic chaplain's ***istant. Now let's look at Mormon history regarding Catholics --- no I'm not interested; another Christian can remind you of that.

LOL.... So visiting the Vatican or being molested by a Catholic chaplains ***istant makes you an expert on what the Early Christians and Modern Catholics believe?
Again, this is the third time you have posted a rant, instead of an answer to my question.
However by so doing, you have shown yet another contradiction in your beliefs. You say you don't believe in what the Catholics believe or the beliefs of the Early Christian Fathers, yet you still cling to this Trinity nonsense written by an Early Church Theologian and adopted by the Catholic Church..... Can anyone say double standard?

Originally Posted by Grandma

Who has seen the Father? Who do I worship? I worship the Triune God described in the Bible.

What did Jesus say and was He telling the truth?

The Bible never says to worship the Triune God.... I thought you got your doctrine from the Bible?
Grant it... Nobody has ever been able to explain The Trinity doctrine to where it makes any sense to anybody, or to where it is not contradictory. The worlds best Theologians and Scholars have tried and failed. They were forced to come to the conclusion that their version of the Godhead was impossible to reconcile, so they have labeled it "The Great Mystery".
However, the basic tenet of your belief is that all Three are ONE. If true, then anyone who has seen The Son has in fact also literally seen the Father, John 14:9 otherwise you are saying that they are not ONE.
This whole argument that "no one has seen God" is not a problem for the LDS, because as you know the LDS are not held hostage by the incorrect or deliberate mistranslations or misunderstandings of men. This paradox is only for those few Christian left who believe in the "infallibility of the Bible" silliness to try and reconcile... Not us. So who are you trying to convince?

Originally Posted by Grandma

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 6:46
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he[Jesus] which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

We can play dueling scriptures if you want however you would lose, because for every 1 scripture that you think supports you, I can post 15 that says someone has seen God. However that does not matter as your interpretation is not the way the Early Church understood it.
Here is how they understood it...

"For "no man," he says, "hath seen God at any time," unless "the only-begotten Son of God, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared [Him]." Irenaeus, "Against Heresies," Chapter 6, ANF,1:427.

Interestingly enough, Joseph Smith brought back the original interpretation in the Joseph Smith Translation
"No man hath seen God at any time except he hath borne record of the Son" JST.

That begs the question.... How did Joseph Smith know how it was originally to be interpreted?

Originally Posted by Grandma

I’ve told Mormons many times that I’m not trying to usurp the Holy Spirit Who convinces men of truth.

Praying for sinners is not an unholy attempt to change God’s will. We are instructed to pray for others. You obviously don’t know your Bible nor do you know my “belief system” as you want to call my faith.

I'm only pointing out that praying for sinners only makes sense to the overwhelming majority of Christians who don't believe in "God does it all".
I'm asking you what is the point in your theory of praying for a sinner that was not preselected by God? It would never change anything for him, change God's mind, nor would it do you any good either..... Again, the paradox is yours, not ours.

Originally Posted by Grandma

You aren’t omniscient, are you? How do you know who is chosen and who isn’t?

Love,

Grandma

That is the whole point. If you do not know who is "already" saved and who is not, then you would more likely be praying for a already ****ed demon to enter heaven, than for a already saved individual. In any case it would be of no use to either.
Simply saying that you do not know the reason why, only showcases what you don't know about the Bible, not what you do know.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

LOL.... So visiting the Vatican or being molested by a Catholic chaplains ***istant makes you an expert on what the Early Christians and Modern Catholics believe?
Again, this is the third time you have posted a rant, instead of an answer to my question.
However by so doing, you have shown yet another contradiction in your beliefs. You say you don't believe in what the Catholics believe or the beliefs of the Early Christian Fathers, yet you still cling to this Trinity nonsense written by an Early Church Theologian and adopted by the Catholic Church..... Can anyone say double standard?

Putting words in my mouth equates to lying.

Originally Posted by theway

Grant it... Nobody has ever been able to explain The Trinity doctrine to where it makes any sense to anybody, or to where it is not contradictory. The worlds best Theologians and Scholars have tried and failed. They were forced to come to the conclusion that their version of the Godhead was impossible to reconcile, so they have labeled it "The Great Mystery".

The reason it is a mystery to created beings, is because there is only one God anywhere ever! Mormons reduce God to the same species as humans, and His godhood simply to a position he attained. I won't follow your example of using inflammatory words in an attempt to provoke the other person.

Originally Posted by theway

However, the basic tenet of your belief is that all Three are ONE. If true, then anyone who has seen The Son has in fact also literally seen the Father, John 14:9 otherwise you are saying that they are not ONE.

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each God and because there absolutely is only one God, the three are one.

Originally Posted by theway

This whole argument that "no one has seen God" is not a problem for the LDS, because as you know the LDS are not held hostage by the incorrect or deliberate mistranslations or misunderstandings of men. This paradox is only for those few Christian left who believe in the "infallibility of the Bible" silliness to try and reconcile... Not us. So who are you trying to convince?
We can play dueling scriptures if you want however you would lose, because for every 1 scripture that you think supports you, I can post 15 that says someone has seen God. However that does not matter as your interpretation is not the way the Early Church understood it.
Here is how they understood it...

You can post umpteen million verses without understanding Who God is.


"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

"These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."
- Joseph Smith, King Follett Sermon, April 7, 1844

He failed to show it from the Bible.

"Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."
- Joseph Smith, King Follet Sermon, April 7, 1844

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Deuteronomy 4:35
Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Mark 12:32
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Joseph Smith ignored those verses! Now Mormons are working out answers to twist the scriptures into saying things that aren't true.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Originally Posted by theway

I'm only pointing out that praying for sinners only makes sense to the overwhelming majority of Christians who don't believe in "God does it all".
I'm asking you what is the point in your theory of praying for a sinner that was not preselected by God? It would never change anything for him, change God's mind, nor would it do you any good either..... Again, the paradox is yours, not ours.

There is no paradox. Jesus came to save sinners. God gives the sinner a new heart and makes him a new creature. The person who was walking on darkness becomes a child of light. I am obedient to God when I pray for others.

Do Mormons think they can manipulare God? Do you never pray for wayward Mormons? Will your prayers help God to bring a wayward Mormon back? Will that wayward person's will prevent God from turning that person around? Is God weaker than man's will?

Originally Posted by theway

That is the whole point. If you do not know who is "already" saved and who is not, then you would more likely be praying for a already ****ed demon to enter heaven, than for a already saved individual. In any case it would be of no use to either.

Jesus taught us to pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." I never pray for God to go against His Own will!

Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

For the sake of dignity please don't ever use Numbers 23:19 against the truth that God is a man. Have you read it or did you copy and paste it from an anti website?

I read it in anti-Mormon book called the Holy Bible, King James Version.


Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

New International Version
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New American Standard Bible
"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

King James Bible
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

International Standard Version
God is not a human male— he doesn't lie, nor is he a human being— he never vacillates. Once he speaks up, he's going to act, isn't he? Once he makes a promise, he'll fulfill it, won't he?

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God has NEVER sinned!

I wish you could see this.

Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

New International Version
God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

English Standard Version
God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it?

New American Standard Bible
"God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

King James Bible
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

International Standard Version
God is not a human male— he doesn't lie, nor is he a human being— he never vacillates. Once he speaks up, he's going to act, isn't he? Once he makes a promise, he'll fulfill it, won't he?

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. God has NEVER sinned!

I wish you could see this.

Love,

Grandma

There you have it... The meaning is that God does not lie. It has nothing to do with whether God was man. In fact your own doctrine says that God was fully man.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

The reason it is a mystery to created beings, is because there is only one God anywhere ever! Mormons reduce God to the same species as humans, and His godhood simply to a position he attained. I won't follow your example of using inflammatory words in an attempt to provoke the other person.

There's your problem, you believe that if God is an exalted man then that somehow brings Him down. You need to reread your Bible... the whole idea is that God will exalt us to where He is... You seem to have no confidence in the abilities of God to create beings like unto Himself.

Originally Posted by Grandma

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are each God and because there absolutely is only one God, the three are one.

Then that means that if a person has seen Jesus, then they have seen God... Right?
In other words, you believe that man can see God, you just can not actually say it out loud. Once again the paradox is yours, not ours.

Originally Posted by Grandma

You can post umpteen million verses without understanding Who God is.

LOL... You are the one who believes in the unknowable mystery of the Trinitarian God, not us. I have no problem understanding God because I do not have to adhere to conflicting doctrine as you do.

Originally Posted by Grandma

"We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see.

"These ideas are incomprehensible to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God, and to know that we may converse with Him as one man converses with another, and that He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did; and I will show it from the Bible."
- Joseph Smith, King Follett Sermon, April 7, 1844

He failed to show it from the Bible.

"Here, then, is eternal life—to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."
- Joseph Smith, King Follet Sermon, April 7, 1844

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Deuteronomy 4:35
Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.

Mark 12:32
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

Joseph Smith ignored those verses! Now Mormons are working out answers to twist the scriptures into saying things that aren't true.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

I have no idea as to what your point is here??? Your shotgun approach to posting multiple verses ripped out of context which have nothing to do with each other simply shows how little you understand about what you post and shows that you are just hoping you'll get lucky and something will stick. Is this how they told you to confront Mormons in your AntiMormon cl***? Because it ain't working, it is actually having the opposite effect, it makes me never want to be a part of your hodge-podge of made up and conflicting doctrine and misinterpreted scripture.
I see four different unrelated topics in the scriptures and quotes you posted, and I am not sure if you even understand what you posted.

Originally Posted by Grandma

There is no paradox. Jesus came to save sinners. God gives the sinner a new heart and makes him a new creature. The person who was walking on darkness becomes a child of light. I am obedient to God when I pray for others.
Do Mormons think they can manipulare God? Do you never pray for wayward Mormons? Will your prayers help God to bring a wayward Mormon back? Will that wayward person's will prevent God from turning that person around? Is God weaker than man's will?

God's Will is that ALL men be saved! Seeing as though ALL men are not saved, then your whole theory just went right out the window. God gave men free agency, set up the gospel, and went through the Atonement so that ALL men can be saved. All men are not saved because man chooses whether they will follow God or not. If you obey God then God is bond by His Word, so yes men can bind God when you do as He says, else God would be a liar. This throws your "God does it All" out the window as well. You have a lot to relearn about the Bible. Best you throw out the window your Calvanist commentaries as well. And start over... but this time with the aide of the Holy Ghost and not your AntiMormon checklist.

Originally Posted by Grandma

Jesus taught us to pray, "Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." I never pray for God to go against His Own will!

Love,

Grandma

You prayed that I will be saved. Obviously according to your beliefs God has not chosen me to be saved. This means that you are trying to usurp God's Will for me. Even you must admit that based on your beliefs, your prayer have absolutely no power to affect a change in anything, even yourself, otherwise your belief in "God does it all" was a lie to us.
Again the paradox is yours, not ours.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by childofgod

Did you just quote the NIV? o_O
Anyway, God is a man that doesn't lie. If God isn't a an man/male, why do the scriptures refer to God as the Father, He, and Him? God is not an it. I wish you would understand what you post and I hope you will one day understand the scriptures. Not once have you taken the scriptures in context.

Why does the Bible say:

John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

God's Will is that ALL men be saved! Seeing as though ALL men are not saved, then your whole theory just went right out the window.

No, it didn't.

Originally Posted by theway

You prayed that I will be saved. Obviously according to your beliefs God has not chosen me to be saved. This means that you are trying to usurp God's Will for me. Even you must admit that based on your beliefs, your prayer have absolutely no power to affect a change in anything, even yourself, otherwise your belief in "God does it all" was a lie to us.
Again the paradox is yours, not ours.

According to my beliefs, I don't know who He has chosen. I wasn't born a Christian. He has a plan and no one can thwart His plan.

You keep contradicting the Bible.

Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

No, it didn't.

Simply saying "Nuh-uh" is not an answer, and does not solve the many contradictions embedded within the heresies you believe in.

Again, please explain how if you believe "God does it All" and that God's Will is always accomplished by Him; if God's Will is for all men to be saved, then why are all men not saved?

"3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9).

Originally Posted by Grandma

According to my beliefs, I don't know who He has chosen. I wasn't born a Christian. He has a plan and no one can thwart His plan.

According to your beliefs you contradicted yourself again. If you believe God chose and saved you before you were born, then you do believe you were in fact a Christian before you were born, you just didn't know it.
Your telling us that you do not know how God works, nor do you understand His plans, is not news to anyone reading these posts of yours.

Originally Posted by Grandma

You keep contradicting the Bible.
Love,
Grandma

No, I am simply showing the contradictions within your own writings, and the contradictions between you and what the majority of Christians believe.
The mistake you keep making is that you thought Mormons would be an easy target to sell your heresies to. However if you are not able to sell your Faith Alone and God does it all heresies to you own, then what gave you the idea you could convince Mormons to buy into it when we know the Bible better than the lot of you guys?

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

... You seem to have no confidence in the abilities of God to create beings like unto Himself.

You seem to believe that God needs a wife in order to do that.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

Simply saying "Nuh-uh" is not an answer, and does not solve the many contradictions embedded within the heresies you believe in.

Again, please explain how if you believe "God does it All" and that God's Will is always accomplished by Him; if God's Will is for all men to be saved, then why are all men not saved?

"3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9).


According to your beliefs you contradicted yourself again. If you believe God chose and saved you before you were born, then you do believe you were in fact a Christian before you were born, you just didn't know it.
Your telling us that you do not know how God works, nor do you understand His plans, is not news to anyone reading these posts of yours.


No, I am simply showing the contradictions within your own writings, and the contradictions between you and what the majority of Christians believe.
The mistake you keep making is that you thought Mormons would be an easy target to sell your heresies to. However if you are not able to sell your Faith Alone and God does it all heresies to you own, then what gave you the idea you could convince Mormons to buy into it when we know the Bible better than the lot of you guys?

I don't even think of Mormons as a target nor do I expect them to believe what I believe. And I'm not interested in spreading heresies.

Mormons don't believe that this will happen:

"3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).


In Christian Love,

Grandma

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

You seem to believe that God needs a wife in order to do that.

I never said He did??? I don't know where you got that from?
Oh wait... Yes I do. You merely created this ad hominem in order to not have to deal with or answer my question.

Can God create a being to be like Himself?

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

I don't even think of Mormons as a target nor do I expect them to believe what I believe. And I'm not interested in spreading heresies.

Mormons don't believe that this will happen:

"3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
(1 Tim. 2:3-4).


In Christian Love,

Grandma

We absolutely do believe it... As I keep pointing out, you are unable to solve the paradox because it is YOUR belief in "God does it All" which contradicts scripture, not ours.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

I never said He did??? I don't know where you got that from?
Oh wait... Yes I do. You merely created this ad hominem in order to not have to deal with or answer my question.

Can God create a being to be like Himself?

It's not an ad hominem. It's Mormon teaching. Perhaps you are just pretending to be a Mormon.

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

We absolutely do believe it... As I keep pointing out, you are unable to solve the paradox because it is YOUR belief in "God does it All" which contradicts scripture, not ours.

No, you do NOT teach that all men will be saved, but only a "select few."

In Christian Love,

Grandma

[Grandma]

Originally Posted by theway

There's your problem, you believe that if God is an exalted man then that somehow brings Him down. You need to reread your Bible... the whole idea is that God will exalt us to where He is... You seem to have no confidence in the abilities of God to create beings like unto Himself.

Then that means that if a person has seen Jesus, then they have seen God... Right?
In other words, you believe that man can see God, you just can not actually say it out loud. Once again the paradox is yours, not ours.

LOL... You are the one who believes in the unknowable mystery of the Trinitarian God, not us. I have no problem understanding God because I do not have to adhere to conflicting doctrine as you do.

I have no idea as to what your point is here??? Your shotgun approach to posting multiple verses ripped out of context which have nothing to do with each other simply shows how little you understand about what you post and shows that you are just hoping you'll get lucky and something will stick. Is this how they told you to confront Mormons in your AntiMormon cl***? Because it ain't working, it is actually having the opposite effect, it makes me never want to be a part of your hodge-podge of made up and conflicting doctrine and misinterpreted scripture.
I see four different unrelated topics in the scriptures and quotes you posted, and I am not sure if you even understand what you posted.

I guess you don't understand your Bible.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Grandma

No, you do NOT teach that all men will be saved, but only a "select few."

In Christian Love,

Grandma

Yes and no...
We teach that through the Atonement of Christ ALL mankind WILL be saved from physical death. In other words, all men and women who ever lived will be resurrected to their perfect body never to die again.
We also believe that through the Atonement of Christ ALL mankind MAY be saved spiritually.... All one has to do is choose Christ and follow Him... That is not the same as "only a select few" but is "only the few who have selected"