Eternal ****ation

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Exactly--so, when Peter taught repentance and water baptism for the remission of sins--following the death, burial and resurrection of Christ--that was due to Christ's Blood sacrifice--correct?

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Jesus, Peter and the apostles, all taught the same thing John the Baptist did: the gospel of the kingdom which was for Jew only. It was not the Gospel of grace because they were Jews living under the OT economy which included law keeping. After Jesus’ resurrection and ascension, the gospel of the kingdom continued to be preached by Peter and the other apostles (It began with John the Baptist and stopped in the middle of Acts.) (Acts 15:11) in which repentance, baptism, and faith plus works were required. Their message was that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God. Nothing about believing in Christ's death, burial and resurrection which is the heart of Paul's Gospel.

Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 1:15: "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

The gospel of the kingdom ended in Jewish unbelief. God set it aside (until the body of Christ is completed) and turned to the Gentiles and chose Paul to preach the Gospel of grace which is faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing.

dberrie, do you believe that Christ's shed blood was sufficient to bring complete forgiveness, or do you believe it wasn't enough and that you need to be worthy through your own good efforts?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Jesus, Peter and the apostles, all taught the same thing John the Baptist did: the gospel of the kingdom which was for Jew only. It was not the Gospel of grace because they were Jews living under the OT economy which included law keeping. After Jesus’ resurrection and ascension, the gospel of the kingdom continued to be preached by Peter and the other apostles (It began with John the Baptist and stopped in the middle of Acts.) (Acts 15:11) in which repentance, baptism, and faith plus works were required.

Since when did repentance and water baptism stop in the middle of Acts--or faith plus works being required for His grace unto life?

Matthew 28:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Paul wrote in 1 Cor. 1:15: "Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures

The gospel of the kingdom ended in Jewish unbelief. God set it aside (until the body of Christ is completed) and turned to the Gentiles and chose Paul to preach the Gospel of grace which is faith alone in Christ alone plus nothing.

If it requires nothing more--then why are all jusged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Could you identify who the "we" are here?

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

dberrie, do you believe that Christ's shed blood was sufficient to bring complete forgiveness, or do you believe it wasn't enough and that you need to be worthy through your own good efforts?

I believe God's shed Blood is sufficient for all men to inherit eternal life--as it was an Atonement for all men, as a free gift.

Just as a college is sufficient for all men to obtain an education--as a free gift.

In order to obtain a degree--one must follow the criteria the college sets.

In order to obtain eternal life--as a personal reception--one must follow the criteria the Redeemer sets:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That connects obedience and eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Since when did repentance and water baptism stop in the middle of Acts--or faith plus works being required for His grace unto life?

Matthew 28:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



If it requires nothing more--then why are all jusged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Could you identify who the "we" are here?

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.




I believe God's shed Blood is sufficient for all men to inherit eternal life--as it was an Atonement for all men, as a free gift.

Just as a college is sufficient for all men to obtain an education--as a free gift.

In order to obtain a degree--one must follow the criteria the college sets.

In order to obtain eternal life--as a personal reception--one must follow the criteria the Redeemer sets:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That connects obedience and eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

dberrie, did Christ's blood sacrifice cover every sin or just some?

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Since when did repentance and water baptism stop in the middle of Acts--or faith plus works being required for His grace unto life?

Matthew 28:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.



If it requires nothing more--then why are all jusged according to works--after death--and that for life or ****ation?

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Could you identify who the "we" are here?

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.




I believe God's shed Blood is sufficient for all men to inherit eternal life--as it was an Atonement for all men, as a free gift.

Just as a college is sufficient for all men to obtain an education--as a free gift.

In order to obtain a degree--one must follow the criteria the college sets.

In order to obtain eternal life--as a personal reception--one must follow the criteria the Redeemer sets:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That connects obedience and eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-19--King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The "we" in 2 Cor. 5:10 are Christians. This is not to determine heaven or hell. It's not to judge us for our sins, because the believers sins have already been judged totally and completely at the Cross. We will never again have to face our sins. Christians will stand before Christ to see if they are going to receive a reward.

This is NOT the Great White Throne Judgment where the unsaved will go. They have been judged (condemned) already.

dberrie, can you tell me how was Abraham justified? (saved) Was it membership to the right church? Was it obedience to the 10 Commandments? What was it?

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Since when did repentance and water baptism stop in the middle of Acts--or faith plus works being required for His grace unto life?

.

Acts 2:38

"Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,’"

Everyone of them would have had to be converted and accept Christ as their Messiah. Then God would have given them the King and set up the Kingdom. Peter also says in Acts 3:26. "Repent and be baptized." Who began that message? John the Baptist. Compare this with Paul’s answer to the jailer in Acts 16. Paul is not talking to the Nation of Israel, he’s talking to a Gentile. And when this Gentile asks what he must do to be saved, what does Paul tell him?


"And they (Paul and Silas) said, ‘Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.’"

Does it say Repent and be baptized? No, that was the Jewish program. So the jailer said, "What must I do?" The answer is simple: "Only Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ."

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Acts 2:38

"Then Peter said unto them, ‘Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost,’"

Everyone of them would have had to be converted and accept Christ as their Messiah.

Acts 2:38--King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Why would anyone repent or be baptized if they did not have faith in Christ?

The question being--were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins?

Then God would have given them the King and set up the Kingdom. Peter also says in Acts 3:26. "Repent and be baptized." Who began that message? John the Baptist. Compare this with Paul’s answer to the jailer in Acts 16. Paul is not talking to the Nation of Israel, he’s talking to a Gentile. And when this Gentile asks what he must do to be saved, what does Paul tell him?

"And they (Paul and Silas) said, ‘Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.’"

Does it say Repent and be baptized? No, that was the Jewish program. So the jailer said, "What must I do?" The answer is simple: "Only Believe on The Lord Jesus Christ."

Acts 16 sets out a sequence:

Acts 16:31-34---King James Version (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.


1) Commanded to believe in the Lord

2) Spake to him the word of the Lord

3) Baptized all his

4) pronounced as "believing in God"

Hogan--what is your evidence repenting and being water baptized is integral to believing in Christ---just as a roof is integral to a house?

Again--when you find the term "faith" in the Bible--is that a reference to a faith with works--or a faith without works?

Also--please notice the Word of the Lord--and their connection here:


Acts 2:38-42---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Acts 16:31-34---King James Version (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

[B]

The question being--were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins?



.

dberrie, those who were saved before Christ shed his blood on the cross were of the OT economy. It was animal sacrifice that covered their sins until Christ came.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

dberrie, those who were saved before Christ shed his blood on the cross were of the OT economy. It was animal sacrifice that covered their sins until Christ came.

Hi Hogan:

The question was--were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

The question was--were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

already answered it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHi Hogan:

The question was--were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Originally Posted by hogan60

already answered it.

Hi Hogan:

Cite, please--I cannot find that answer.

Hogan--the standard answer of the faith alone, when boxed into the corner the scriptures paint them into--is--"I already answered that"--"out of context"--"you don't understand the scriptures", etc, etc.

There is no answer for why the scriptures violate faith alone theology, other than faith alone theology just does not fit the Biblical testimony, doctrine, or witness, in many of their doctrines.

IOW--what we find in the Biblical text, as to salvational doctrines, in many instances--conflict with faith alone theology.

The Biblical NT and the LDS doctrines fit very well, in the sense ---what one finds in the Biblical NT--one will also find in the LDS church---as far as salvational doctrines go.

Matthew 28:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Cite, please--I cannot find that answer.

Hogan--the standard answer of the faith alone, when boxed into the corner the scriptures paint them into--is--"I already answered that"--"out of context"--"you don't understand the scriptures", etc, etc.

There is no answer for why the scriptures violate faith alone theology, other than faith alone theology just does not fit the Biblical testimony, doctrine, or witness, in many of their doctrines.

IOW--what we find in the Biblical text, as to salvational doctrines, in many instances--conflict with faith alone theology.

The Biblical NT and the LDS doctrines fit very well, in the sense ---what one finds in the Biblical NT--one will also find in the LDS church---as far as salvational doctrines go.

Matthew 28:19-20---King James Version (KJV)
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

John 5:28-29----King James Version (KJV)
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version (KJV)
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 Peter 1:16-17---King James Version (KJV)
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, p*** the time of your sojourning here in fear:

Romans 2:5-11----King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Hi dberrie, The Scriptures do not violate faith alone theology. It is very clearly taught in the writings of Paul. The problem for the LDS is that they cannot accept faith alone, because Mormonism would fall flat on its face.

In an earlier post I asked you how was Abraham saved? Was it membership in a church? Obedience to the 10 Commandments. Practice of circumcision? What was it?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Hi dberrie, The Scriptures do not violate faith alone theology.

Hello Hogan:

The Biblical NT and faith alone theology have precious little in common with one another:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Any theology which preaches a salvation through a faith without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ will never comport with the Biblical NT:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

It is very clearly taught in the writings of Paul.

The writings of Paul--never once--ever contained the term "faith alone". Paul never used that term--never--quite to the contrary:

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The problem for the LDS is that they cannot accept faith alone, because Mormonism would fall flat on its face.

All of Christianity would fail--and will, under faith alone theology:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The reason being--faith alone theology is a false theology.

In an earlier post I asked you how was Abraham saved? Was it membership in a church? Obedience to the 10 Commandments. Practice of circumcision? What was it?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by hogan60

already answered it.

welcome to my world...

Here is n example of how this works out in the end,

We had a guy on this forum that seemed to get stuck in loop of always posting the same stuff over and over.
For a while some of the people that he was talking to would go over his post and answer it,,but it did not matter to the guy, for he would turn right around and say, "Why cant anyone answer these verses?" and post the same stuff over and over again.

It went on like that for a while....new people would pop on to the forum and answer his post , but would soon understand that the guy simply did not give a hoot what answers people gave him, he just had it in his mind that no one could answer his verses so he would pretend that no one had and keep posting the same stuff over and over again and again.


finally the members of the forum that had enough of his posting the same thing so many times in all his posts, and the guy was warned about it...

he did not respond well to that warning....


and so we had to get along with out him for a while.....

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hello Hogan:

The Biblical NT and faith alone theology have precious little in common with one another:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Any theology which preaches a salvation through a faith without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ will never comport with the Biblical NT:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.



The writings of Paul--never once--ever contained the term "faith alone". Paul never used that term--never--quite to the contrary:

Romans 6:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?



All of Christianity would fail--and will, under faith alone theology:

Matthew 7:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The reason being--faith alone theology is a false theology.



Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Of course Paul taught faith alone. I'm sure you know Eph. 2: 2,9 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

dberrie, if you must work for something is it a gift, yes or no?

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

The question was--were those of Acts2:38 saved prior to the remission of sins?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

dberrie, Hebrews tells us that there can be no remission of sins without the shedding of blood. For the OT people it was animal sacrifice. For us today its through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross.

What do you believe remission of sins means?

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hello Hogan:



Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Be careful that you do not mix law (Old Testament) with Grace (New Testament.) What commandments were Abraham obedient to? Was it the 10 Commandments?

[dberrie2000]

Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 In an earlier post I asked you how was Abraham saved? Was it membership in a church? Obedience to the 10 Commandments. Practice of circumcision? What was it?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostHello Hogan:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Originally Posted by hogan60

Be careful that you do not mix law (Old Testament) with Grace (New Testament.) What commandments were Abraham obedient to? Was it the 10 Commandments?

Hi Hogan:

The Mosaic Law did not come until 400 years after Abraham.

Abraham was taught the gospel:

Galatians 3:8--King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The Mosaic Law was added to the gospel later:

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

The Mosaic Law did not come until 400 years after Abraham.

Abraham was taught the gospel:

3:8--King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

The Mosaic Law was added to the gospel later:

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

What gospel was Abraham taught? Was it the same as the gospel Paul taught, the gospel that Christians today believe?

Gal 3:8 Read it again. It says that Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Heathens (Gentiles) through faith. The gospel (good news) to Abraham was the news of salvation for all the nations ( Gen. 12:3; 18:18; Gen. 22:18; John 8:56; Acts 26:22-23).


Gal. 3:19 doesn't say that the Mosaic law was added to the Gospel. It says that the law was given to Israel because of their transgressions . It was to show them their sinfulness.

Salvation has always, in every age, been by faith.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

What gospel was Abraham taught?

Hi Hogan:

The gospel of Jesus Christ--the same gospel as has always been:

Galatians3:8--King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

Was it the same as the gospel Paul taught, the gospel that Christians today believe?

Of course--the gospel does not change.

Gal 3:8 Read it again. It says that Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Heathens (Gentiles) through faith. The gospel (good news) to Abraham was the news of salvation for all the nations ( Gen. 12:3; 18:18; Gen. 22:18; John 8:56; Acts 26:22-23).

But that is the gospel message in all ages--where the gospel has been present. How does that change the fact it was the gospel?

Gal. 3:19 doesn't say that the Mosaic law was added to the Gospel.

Since the scriptures state the gospel was present with Abraham--and the Law was added with Moses--then what was it added to?

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

It says that the law was given to Israel because of their transgressions.

It states the law was "added" because of transgressions.

Hogan--that is important because of this reason: ---The things which Abraham had, and was part of the gospel before the Law was added--remained after the Law was fulfilled--such as the commandments--and is the reason Jesus could connect keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

It was to show them their sinfulness. Salvation has always, in every age, been by faith.

I agree--just not faith alone--obviously:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

The gospel of Jesus Christ--the same gospel as has always been:

Galatians3:8--King James Version (KJV)
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.



Of course--the gospel does not change.



But that is the gospel message in all ages--where the gospel has been present. How does that change the fact it was the gospel?



Since the scriptures state the gospel was present with Abraham--and the Law was added with Moses--then what was it added to?

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.



It states the law was "added" because of transgressions.

Hogan--that is important because of this reason: ---The things which Abraham had, and was part of the gospel before the Law was added--remained after the Law was fulfilled--such as the commandments--and is the reason Jesus could connect keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.



I agree--just not faith alone--obviously:

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

James 2:24--New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Whose transgressions is Galatians talking about? The Jews. The law was given to the nation of Israel. It was never meant for the Gentiles. (non Jews) The reason why God gave the law to Israel was to show them their sins. To show how far they have fallen because they kept backsliding.

Lev. 26:46 "These are the statutes and ordinances and laws which the LORD established between Himself and the sons of Israel through Moses at Mount Sinai."

Romans 9:4 "who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises."

The OT people, including Abraham, knew nothing about the gospel of grace which Paul taught. Not even Peter or the 11 fully understood it

2Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Peter wasn't expected to to understand the gospel of grace because he was the apostle to the nation of Israel. Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, was taught the mystery of the gospel of grace by Christ himself.

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery [secret] [B]which has been kept secret for long ages past (Romans 16.25)

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Whose transgressions is Galatians talking about? The Jews. The law was given to the nation of Israel. It was never meant for the Gentiles. (non Jews) The reason why God gave the law to Israel was to show them their sins. To show how far they have fallen because they kept backsliding.

Hi Hogan:

How does that address the fact the Law was added because of transgression?

Again--added to what?

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Lev. 26:46 "These are the statutes and ordinances and laws which the LORD established between Himself and the sons of Israel through Moses at Mount Sinai."

Romans 9:4 "who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons, and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises."

The OT people, including Abraham, knew nothing about the gospel of grace which Paul taught. Not even Peter or the 11 fully understood it

2Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

Peter wasn't expected to to understand the gospel of grace because he was the apostle to the nation of Israel.

That does not even make sense to me.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

How does that address the fact the Law was added because of transgression?

Again--added to what?

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.



That does not even make sense to me.

dberrie, why do you adhere to a religion that teaches works and faithful obedience to the law as the way to salvation when the law was never given to non Jews? Since it was the transgressions of the Jews that was the reason God gave them the law in the first place, what does any of it have to do with you?

If the law was added to the Gospel, then why didn't Jesus praise the pharisees who were great law keepers and tell his apostles to be like them?

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

How does that address the fact the Law was added because of transgression?

Again--added to what?

Galatians 3:19---King James Version (KJV)
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.



That does not even make sense to me.

Are you familiar with the story of Lydia in Acts 16? She was a devout worshiper of God who did good works. She honored the sabbath. Was she saved? The Bible says that God sent Paul to preach the Gospel to Lydia. If obedience and works were required, then why did God send Paul to preach to her?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Are you familiar with the story of Lydia in Acts 16? She was a devout worshiper of God who did good works. She honored the sabbath. Was she saved? The Bible says that God sent Paul to preach the Gospel to Lydia. If obedience and works were required, then why did God send Paul to preach to her?

Hi Hogan:

Pauls' message would have been the same for Lydia:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Pauls' message would have been the same for Lydia:

Romans 2:5-11---King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Lydia was a Jew. A devout God worshiper. In Acts 10 we also read about Cornelius, a roman (Gentile) Centurion and a Jewish proselyte. He was a God worshiper, a devout man who prayed regularly and gave to charity. Seems these people were observing the law. Were they saved? Hardly. Otherwise, why would God send Paul and Peter to preach to them? Because being religious is not enough to save a person.They needed the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They needed to believe in His atoning work on the cross for their salvation. Peter didn't preach works to Cornelius. He preached about the death and resurrection.