God Never Sinned - Do Mormons Agree?

[alanmolstad]

[Erundur]

Of course. Do Protestants?

[alanmolstad]

as the video shows.....

mormons have some strange / differing ideas about their sinning god....

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as the video shows.....

mormons have some strange / differing ideas about their sinning god....

Yawn....so somebody got some members of the LDS church to make speculations of the pre-mortal state of God. Nice strawman, but completely irrelevant to our eternal progression, and NO, GOD has not sinned.

Btw....do you "Chtistians" EVER disagree on anything? I see contradictory statements and differing viewpoints all the time...does that make you non-believers? Why are you wasting time with this again?

[alanmolstad]

Now the first time I ever heard of this idea that Mormons believe in a sinning god, was from some type of video I saw many years ago.
its been a long time, and i cant remember everything about it, but I was listening to a video on TV or on the computer and all of the sudden I started to see that this Mormon guy was talking about his god being a past sinner???

A few years later the topic did come up again on a message forum i was a member of and I told the story of the one Mormon guy I had heard in a video before.

Now at first it was attacked as just being a non-Mormon teaching and it was compared to Christian in-house debates over teachings, but then later one of the Christians found what i think was the same video or written work I had seen many years before and it turns out that it was not just a lone Mormon making up ideas on his own, but was a rather well known radio talk show host who was spreading this teaching that the Mormon god has sinned.


I have not done a GOOGLE search on the topic of "Mormon god is a sinner" and im not sure what else is to be found in that?
But it might be interesting to see how this idea is looked at by many other Mormons who are also doing video BLOGS and stuff, and have their own shows on radio or the web?

[alanmolstad]

this link is to the first hit I got when doing a little search this mornin on the question of the "sinning Mormon god"

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/...-god-ever-sin/

[alanmolstad]

when you look at the statements by the Mormons themselves on the link what we see over and over is a feeling that the Mormons just cant say "no" to this question.

they twist things one way and then the other, but the thing that are twisting away from is a direct answer of "NO!"

they say a lot of words, they connect one teaching about their god to another, but in the end, all that work is just to gloss-over the fact that they dont dare say "no".




odd but true....

[alanmolstad]

in the link they say a lot of things...but the answer of "no"is not among the things these Mormons will say to this question of "did god sin?

[alanmolstad]

what you get from the link's statements of the Mormons also is this general "unsure-ness" about their very basic concept of their god that these Mormons have.

They seem to be all attempting to put the best spin on the underlying problem in that none of them will take a stand and say that God is sinless and has never sinned, regardless of other Mormon teachings about their god's evolution....

In fact,I believe Im seeing a bit of fear also in control.

That the Mormons dont want to risk being criticized by other Mormons if caught saying "God is and always was sinless and pure".

Clearly an eternally sinless god is not found in the Mormon teachings>
if it was then you would see it come out in the views of Mormons,
But you dont....


Rather what we see is a wish-washy kind of faith in their god, due to the fact that they are not all that sure if their god sinned or not....?????!

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

in the link they say a lot of things...but the answer of "no"is not among the things these Mormons will say to this question of "did god sin?

Hmmmmmm....do you think it's a possibility that .... Gasp .... The maker of the video OMITTED anything he didn't want in the video? Like perhaps the conversations held before or after the questions...or any people answering NO to the question? Yes, people are making SPECULATIONS, people do that. Can you please tell me where ANYONE has ever claimed Mormons were PERFECT?

But please Alan....clear up some of the contradictions in YOUR faith ... Oh yeah... I forgot... You don't have to answer any questions lol

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Hmmmmmm....do you think it's a possibility that .... Gasp .... The maker of the video OMITTED anything he didn't want in the video? l

Im addressing the link I found in a google search..

perhaps you missed that?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

this link is to the first hit I got when doing a little search this mornin on the question of the "sinning Mormon god"

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/...-god-ever-sin/

one more time for people that did not catch it the first go around...

[alanmolstad]

what you see in the links statements by the many Mormons, is that they just cant bring themselves to say "no" to the question.....

[MickeyS]

Hey Alan

How is God three people but one in substance, when the bible clearly states three individuals?
How can we be made in God's image as the bible states when God has no image?
How can you believe in pre-destination without a pre-existence?
How can you believe works are not necessary when the bible REPEATEDLY stated to FOLLOW and OBEY the commandments and that we are judged according to our DEEDS?
How (and I love this one) can we be born sinners....but don't BECOME sinners until after we grow up (because according to you all children who die are automatically "saved"...so we were ALL "saved" until we grew up) and how does that fit into your OSAS beliefs??? If we die as children and are saved...and once saved always saved....aren't we ALL SAVED??

And finally....how did people before Christ came to earth become children of God through the atonement of Jesus Christ if Christ hadn't came yet .... AND WHERE IS ALL OF THAT IN THE BIBLE (please see my previous post of questions you never answered)

[MickeyS]

I ask, knowing you (Alan) will never answer...

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

as the video shows.....

mormons have some strange / differing ideas about their sinning god....

We don't have a sinning god. That is an anti-Mormon lie.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Hey Alan

How is God three people...

I use the term "persons"
God is found in the bible as being in 3 persons within the One God.


This I have to try to keep seprate fromthe idea of the common understanding of "people"
Fof the term "people" is very connected to the idea of "human".
I want to make sure that when we talk about God, we use terms that try to make very clear what we are talking about.
I use the term "persons" to show that they are "personalities"to themselves, they are separate...they are unique.they are ableto interact with each other in a very real way, and not just in some type of "theory"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

.... but one in substance,

The "substance" is taken from I guess the creed?

If you look that up on line - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/****ousian you see that this is a complex term and has changed in what it means over the years to the point that even when we try to use the term now we have to **** an hr or two defining it to death...LOL

What I teach is that Jesus is 100% God Almighty and 100% human.
Two natures within the same person.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

the bible clearly states three individuals?

Yes, the bible clearly teaches us that the father is a person, the son is a person, and the Holy Spirit is a person.(as defined above)
all 3 are called "God"yet there is only "One God"

so all3 persons are the one God

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

How can we be made in God's image as the bible states when God has no image?

Im Bible school we talking about how man was made in the image of God and what that means.
The understanding I came to is that man is a moral creature, we have a spirit.
This is why when we die our dead body goes into the ground, for the body is from the earth, and our spirit goes to the Lord who gave it.
This also means that when I die, and you goto my grave and watch them lower my body into the earth, that all you see being lowered down is NOT made in the image of God.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

How can you believe in pre-destination without a pre-existence?

Back in school I was in a writing cl***, and the instructor challenged the cl*** to write a short story in the span of one hour.
I took pen in my hand,and considered the blank paper before me.

I came up with an idea.
I decided to write a story about hero that had special powers and who was able to stand his ground in a war and win it.

So before I had put one word down in actual black and white, I had already predetermined how the story would go,what things would happen, what the hero name was, everything that would happen in the story.

But the story itself did not actually happen until I wrote it out.
I had "predetermined" the story before I began telling it...but the story itself took time to write.


Now from time to time during that hour my teacher stopped by my desk and looked over my shoulder to read what I had written so far.
Now from the instructor's point of view, my story was all new and was just being told for the first time.

My story had no "preexistence"...my story came forth for the first time on the paper as I wrote it.

So it was totally brand new.

But as the author I had a plan in my mind before I put the pen to the paper.

I had totally worked out what I was going to do with the story,and nothing was left in doubt.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

How can you believe works are not necessary when the bible REPEATEDLY stated to FOLLOW and OBEY the commandments and that we are judged according to our DEEDS?

This question is in the Bible -

"Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

Go read the answer that Jesus gave...

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

one more time for people that did not catch it the first go around...

I guess I'll go ahead and take a page out of Christians playbook and say I don't know if these people are who they say they are and I don't go link hopping Its still speculation, I don't really care how many people say it. It is...not...doctrine.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

How (and I love this one) can we be born sinners....but don't BECOME sinners until after we grow up (because according to you all children who die are automatically "saved"...so we were ALL "saved" until we grew up) and how does that fit into your OSAS beliefs??? If we die as children and are saved...and once saved always saved....aren't we ALL SAVED??

this is a long question, that has a bunch of breaks in it that toss the idea of the question off the rails...
I will try to shorten it up...


I think you are asking about the souls of children that die?



if this is what you want to know about we have very little in the Bible to pick from to get a answer with,but what we did see in the life of King David is that he lost a small child, and later said that one day he would go to be with it again.

From this small quotation in the Bible we can support the idea that children that die go to be with the Lord.

What we also find in the writings of Paul is that he talked about himself being "alive" before the law came...but once the law came he died in sins.
I take this to be Paul talking about himself as a child and at that time not being under the law, and so he was not under condemnation of the law.
But when he grew older and then came under the law, he failed to keep the law and died.

We can take this to also mean that had he died as a child he would have went to the lord too.

So in both the words of Paul and David we see this idea come out that a child that died goes to be with the Lord.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

And finally....how did people before Christ came to earth become children of God through the atonement of Jesus Christ if Christ hadn't came yet?