God Never Sinned - Do Mormons Agree?

[alanmolstad]

the forum and my computer are at odds....

Im going to try to reboot the computer to see if that helps?

[alanmolstad]

this same calling to "Follow me" goes out to all...

This is why he talked about picking up our cross and following him...Jesus was talking to all men...not just the two thieves who actually did physically pick up a cross and follow Jesus one day...but to all men everywhere and though all time...

[alanmolstad]

this same calling to "Follow me" goes out to all...

This is why he talked about picking up our cross and following him...Jesus was talking to all men...not just the two thieves who actually did physically pick up a cross and follow Jesus one day...but to all men everywhere and though all time...



this "calling" to draw close to God and follw him goes out to us all.
it does not matter that you live far away from a church, the "light" that is christ is still there with you, and it will lead you to greater light of Him...

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have lots of free time today, let me know if you have any questions about anything else I have written on?

I also take questions off the air as it were, and answer them via the Private Message forum should you or anyone else have a question you wanted to ask but not out in the general open forum?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

'must"?????



slow down son, I think you have slightly misunderstood a few things...LOL


No one is "must-ing' anyone here...

I just offering to you or anyone else that prefers a private answer that I do that out of respect for people's privacy.

Oh hahahaha...sorry...hey, I never said I wasn't EVER a drama queen XD

[alanmolstad]

so.....
now that we have that straight, lets go back to any questions about this topic you may have about something I have said, or you have in the past questioned?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so.....
now that we have that straight, lets go back to any questions about this topic you may have about something I have said, or you have in the past questioned?

we are drawing close to the ending of my official "free time" and so I would hope we can get a few questions addressed here before I have to go and return to the "rat race" and become the slave to 'the man"and earn a living...

so PLEASE, if you have any more questions?....now would be a good time to ask them!

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so.....
now that we have that straight, lets go back to any questions about this topic you may have about something I have said, or you have in the past questioned?

Sure, probably on the flight tomorrow morning when I have some extra time, thanks

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

we are drawing close to the ending of my official "free time" and so I would hope we can get a few questions addressed here before I have to go and return to the "rat race" and become the slave to 'the man"and earn a living...

so PLEASE, if you have any more questions?....now would be a good time to ask them!

Yeah, pity this just wasn't my day...I'm full in the rat race as we speak, I'll have to catch you again at a later time. I have some things to think about now, so thank you

[alanmolstad]

take care,
remember to tip your server.....

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so.....
now that we have that straight, lets go back to any questions about this topic you may have about something I have said, or you have in the past questioned?

My point to bringing up the other topics was that there are always going to be things that can be "if"ed and "then"ed about with humans...it's our nature. (Plus I still REALLY wanted to know the answers lol) and there are Christians that give different interpretations of the Trinity alone. Mormons believe in a sinless GOD...it doesn't mean if you frame a question right about God once being a man that you're not going to start getting people to think in human terms and start explaining away lol. The truth is, we are not taught about the details of God's nature prior to the war "council" in Heaven. So those who attempt to do so, are clearly speculating. The problem with having so much information already, is we think we have to have it ALL, and we just don't. But we trust in Him and know He is a perfect sinless Being. I liked this article regarding this topic

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/r...god_sinner.htm

[alanmolstad]

I will tell you a story that this topic about how Mormons cant say "no" reminds me of...


the story is about a guest here on this forum.
She is an older Mormon lady, and she got into big debates with Jim and Billy all the time over the person of Joe Smith.

The lady would defend the Mormon church teachings about Smith only having one wife.
She would call any of the claims that Smith had many wives a "lie" and would say all kinds of things against such stories.

She was totally convinced that joe Smith had ony one wife and was very convinced that the attempt to tear down Smith's reputation was nothing more that Anti-Mormon lies.

I saw Jim ask her many times if she would remain a member of the Mormon church if it came out that Smith did get around, and had other women?
She was always attacking even the asking of that type of question as not being worth answering.


Then.....the landscape changed.

Then there was a new teaching that someone slipped to her in a Private Message and she did a little research on her own before she returned to the open forum.
But you can know that the topic did come up and a lot of Mormons got an ear-full from a lot of Christians on the matter of the many wives that the Mormon church was now saying Smith had collected.

But, the lady now had a new answer.
her answer was to point out that not every single marriage was always "sexual".
This answer helped her deal a bit with the matter of the younger girls that were clearly "underage" for such an older man to be haveing sex with, regardless of their position in a church leadership.

But then I started to see her being challenged to say for sure that Joe Smith , the founder of the Mormon church, never had sex with a 14 year old little girl?.....

The answer she came up with, or rather the "lack" of a answer that she tried to give sounds to me a LOT LIKE the same stuff we see in the videos and statements of Mormons who are asked if their god ever sinned?

They say a lot of words...

They try to connect one Mormon teaching to another...

They point out things they hope are connected to the topic...


But say "no"?....that they cant get themselves to do.

For they really are not sure they should take a firm stand on the question about the sinful past of their god, nor the sexual history of their founder in case the church comes out with yet another new teaching that puts their own statements defending their god and Joe at odds with the new teachings.


so it ends up like this....


ask a Mormon, "Did your god sin in his past?"...and they just shrug.

ask a Mormon "Was Joe Smith a pedophile?"...and they just shrug.









and thats a big difference in answers than you would get from me if you asked me about god or what I believe about Joe Smith.

I would say that "God cant sin!" he never was a man that evolved, the whole concept of the Mormon god is false.....case closed.

I would say, " "YES!, Joe Smith was a pedophile"....case closed.

[alanmolstad]

so the big thing I would point out to people reading this today is that we do receive the calling from God.

Each of us is presented with this same,"Follow me" that we read about in the Bible.

Each of us is challenged to pick up their own personal cross, and follow Christ.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will tell you a story that this topic about how Mormons cant say "no" reminds me of...


the story is about a guest here on this forum.
She is an older Mormon lady, and she got into big debates with Jim and Billy all the time over the person of Joe Smith.

The lady would defend the Mormon church teachings about Smith only having one wife.
She would call any of the claims that Smith had many wives a "lie" and would say all kinds of things against such stories.

She was totally convinced that joe Smith had ony one wife and was very convinced that the attempt to tear down Smith's reputation was nothing more that Anti-Mormon lies.

I saw Jim ask her many times if she would remain a member of the Mormon church if it came out that Smith did get around, and had other women?
She was always attacking even the asking of that type of question as not being worth answering.


Then.....the landscape changed.

Then there was a new teaching that someone slipped to her in a Private Message and she did a little research on her own before she returned to the open forum.
But you can know that the topic did come up and a lot of Mormons got an ear-full from a lot of Christians on the matter of the many wives that the Mormon church was now saying Smith had collected.

But, the lady now had a new answer.
her answer was to point out that not every single marriage was always "sexual".
This answer helped her deal a bit with the matter of the younger girls that were clearly "underage" for such an older man to be haveing sex with, regardless of their position in a church leadership.

But then I started to see her being challenged to say for sure that Joe Smith , the founder of the Mormon church, never had sex with a 14 year old little girl?.....

The answer she came up with, or rather the "lack" of a answer that she tried to give sounds to me a LOT LIKE the same stuff we see in the videos and statements of Mormons who are asked if their god ever sinned?

They say a lot of words...

They try to connect one Mormon teaching to another...

They point out things they hope are connected to the topic...


But say "no"?....that they cant get themselves to do.

For they really are not sure they should take a firm stand on the question about the sinful past of their god, nor the sexual history of their founder in case the church comes out with yet another new teaching that puts their own statements defending their god and Joe at odds with the new teachings.


so it ends up like this....


ask a Mormon, "Did your god sin in his past?"...and they just shrug.

ask a Mormon "Was Joe Smith a pedophile?"...and they just shrug.




and thats a big difference in answers than you would get from me if you asked me about god or what I believe about Joe Smith.

I would say that "God cant sin!" he never was a man that evolved, the whole concept of the Mormon god is false.....case closed.

I would say, " "YES!, Joe Smith was a pedophile"....case closed.

I thought we were having a dialogue, I don't know why we have to slip back into deragatory statements when other terminology exists. Disappointing. I don't want to resort to that kind of talk again. Especially since you actually don't PERSONALLY know Joseph Smith...so you do NOT KNOW , for a definite fact, that he was a pedophile. I'm not making excuses, I have my own questions about church history that I don't fully understand, I truly do, but I know the remainder of my testimony is SO strong and has been confirmed to me, I have to have faith concerning the few things that aren't completely clear.

I feel in some ways I may be in a better position than a lot of born and raised LDS who don't research, or work on their personal testimony they just "go through the motions" (works without faith is dead as well, as you well know) I have fought for my testimony and came from an extremely dangerous and sinful life so I wasn't just floating through on someone else's beliefs. I had to use the atonement IN FULL, and if anything came from the terrible life I lived, it would be the great appreciation that I have gained for the infinite eternal sacrifice our Savior made for us. I'm not being full of myself, seriously...being the person I used to be is NOTHING to brag about. And I FULLY believe complacency and ignorance is a dangerous place for ANYONE to be in.

But let me ask you this, if that guy had been standing out there and simply asked "Has God sinned?" Do you REALLY believe ANYONE would have "shrugged" You would get a complete and resounding "No". But the question was repeatedly framed to include that "if God was once a man... it was setup to get the response it did. I don't think it's fair to just state "Mormons think God has sinned" or "Mormons don't know their God is sinless" because if you simply ask a Mormon "Is God sinless?" they would say "Yes" I wonder how many people were kicking themselves for their responses. As far as the forum....there are way too many people out there (of any faith) who simply think they know everything.

Asking a "Christian" a hard question on the spot that maybe they hadn't considered or hadn't studied...it would be interesting to see what their "on the spot" response would be.

Such as (I believe if I thought about it a little more I could come up with better examples, but hopefully you get the idea)

"Are children saved when they die?" as opposed to "If children are saved when they die, aren't we then all saved from birth?"

"Can you go to Heaven if you don't believe in Christ?" As opposed to "Do People go to hell if they don't get the chance to hear about Christ?"

Or just simply "Is The Father, The Son & The Holy Spirit one Being?" as opposed to "How can God not have a body and Christ does if they are one Being?"

asked on the spot may elicit the same sort of responses...or maybe not...I'm not all too familiar with what is common knowledge in your faith and what is not specifically taught to the average "Christian"...but there would be topics that could be asked that would confound a lot of people I would wager...topics that perhaps in MY faith would be obvious because of the things WE believe. And asked a certain way, these topics may elicit a response that would completely seem to contradict what that person believes.

I make no excuses for members who don't do their research before spouting or speculating....but humans err....it's what we do. Pride pride pride. And quite honestly, and no offense...but most Mormons with a REAL good bead on things and a more complete knowledge of the Gospel aren't wasting their time floating through forums, like I am finding I have the tendency to do lol. They are focusing on better things and probably don't think anything they would have to say here would matter anyway, and they would be right lol. I battle with my own demons still...and pride is the worst

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

I thought we were having a dialogue, I don't know why we have to slip back into deragatory statements when other terminology exists. Disappointing. I don't want to resort to that kind of talk again. Especially since you actually don't PERSONALLY know Joseph Smith...so you do NOT KNOW , for a definite fact, that he was a pedophile.

>>>>>>

I dont know him at all, not personally.
I would not recognize him if I saw him...
I would not know his voice if I heard it.

So its very VERY true that in a very real way I dont know much about the man personally.

all I know is what im told and what i read about him,,,both good and ill.

But...what tells me a lot more about him is when I ask a Mormon who is really up to date on all the latest teachings of the curch, and who really does not have to go look anything up later,but just knows cuz they are up to speed on everything concerning what the church teaches about Smith's sexual history....

and when I ask them..."So Smith had no sex with a little 14 year old girl ?...when he was married to his wife, yes or no?".....






the answer I get tends to remove all doubt in my mind about the pedophile charge.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

I feel in some ways I may be in a better position than a lot of born and raised LDS who don't research, or work on their personal testimony they just "go through the motions" (works without faith is dead as well, as you well know) I have fought for my testimony and came from an extremely dangerous and sinful life so I wasn't just floating through on someone else's beliefs. I had to use the atonement IN FULL, and if anything came from the terrible life I lived, it would be the great appreciation that I have gained for the infinite eternal sacrifice our Savior made for us. I'm not being full of myself, seriously...being the person I used to be is NOTHING to brag about. And I FULLY believe complacency and ignorance is a dangerous place for ANYONE to be in.

and....suddenly I read words that cause me to pause....

[alanmolstad]

Most of the time, I read posts on this forum that fire back and forth and I just think to myself..."it does not concern me"


Oh I see people getting all bent out of shape at each other,,,the whole he said/she said ****, that goes on and on and never ends because no one wants it to end...

then...once in a while I read stuff that is a cut above the rest....

a long-long time ago I had a Mormon friend on this site that actually wrote to 'me" as if I was a person, and not just something that represented an idea he had sworn to debate when approached.

His name was "Fig"
He was a good guy....talked to me as a person,,,spoke with restraint and respect...laughed at my jokes..even the ones with him as the **** of the joke.


I would have to say that the post I just read from the hand of Micky might well approach the quality that was the hallmark of Fig's posts in honesty and openness to the Lord's plan for his life....

while we still may disagree...I see now we might be pointed in the same direction while we argue about where we want to walk...

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Most of the time, I read posts on this forum that fire back and forth and I just think to myself..."it does not concern me"


Oh I see people getting all bent out of shape at each other,,,the whole he said/she said ****, that goes on and on and never ends because no one wants it to end...

then...once in a while I read stuff that is a cut above the rest....

a long-long time ago I had a Mormon friend on this site that actually wrote to 'me" as if I was a person, and not just something that represented an idea he had sworn to debate when approached.

His name was "Fig"
He was a good guy....talked to me as a person,,,spoke with restraint and respect...laughed at my jokes..even the ones with him as the **** of the joke.


I would have to say that the post I just read from the hand of Micky might well approach the quality that was the hallmark of Fig's posts in honesty and openness to the Lord's plan for his life....

while we still may disagree...I see now we might be pointed in the same direction while we argue about where we want to walk...

Awww...Alan...thank you. That seriously means a lot I'll have to say that made my day. Once you get to know me, I'm really not the pushy chick I seem to be (well, not all the time anyway, I guess you'd have to ask my husband...he'd probably tell you different lol) but I will definitely calm down a lot when I don't feel like I need to be in attack dog position haha. I appreciate you hearing me as a person, again, thank you.

[alanmolstad]

got any issues with any part of what I have written on any topic and/or want me to deal with something you think I may have missed?...pose your question, for I have lots o free time today..

[alanmolstad]

why is it that during the work week everyone is posting here, and I just dont have even the free time to read a few comments, YET come the weekend and my free time, not a soul posts here squat?????

[theway]

LOL.... This is that old Aaron attempt to make a name for himself, (via his groupy Russ and now you) by trying to put the final nail in the Mormon coffin. But when he tried it on other AntiMormon forums, it only backfired on him when I easily debunked him by pointed out the real truth of the matter to him. In fact, it was such an embarr***ment for modern Christianity that his threads on this topic on the other forums were deleted by the Mods as it was deemed to be causing division amongst Christians. Even the worst AntiMormons were forced to take down Aaron's link to his website.

First I asked Aaron what his criteria was for determining that this was a majority belief among Mormons? He just told me to watch the video... However when I asked whether he edited out all those that said no! He said that he did not edit out all of them but included a few (so that it appeared that it was an honest survey), However, when I found out that he left in everyone who agreed with his falsehood, but took out most of those that did not... his justification for continuing to claim that this was a majority Mormon belief that God sinned, was that if they did not immediately say No! But had to think about it for a second, he then counted that as a Yes.
When I then asked whether that was fair? He said yes, because a Christian would answer No! without hesitation.
So I pointed out to him a recent survey by the Barna Group that showed that only 31% of Christians answered that they "Strongly Agreed" that Jesus [i.e. God] did in fact did not sin while he was on the earth. I also pointed out by that by that same 2001 survey, Mormons were the one of the most likely to believe that Jesus did not sin at 70%. (Today Mormons are number one with the belief that Jesus was sinless)
When I asked why he wasn't trying to help correct the heretical beliefs by his fellow "Christians" instead of worrying about Mormons who don't have the problem, his answer was that that was not his calling???
Yet, when I questioned that if half the people he questioned said that they had never even considered the idea until HE put it into their heads, and by then asking what kind of sins God MAY of committed, that maybe he was only adding to the problem, and not helping anyone....
That's when his threads were taken down and I was banned from the site for "interfering with the ministry" and "causing divisions among Christians" that is also the time that I could no longer get Aaron to debate me anymore.... Russ also now ignores me.

Seems to me, one would need to remove the beam from their own eye before worrying about the mote of another....

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Back in school I was in a writing cl***, and the instructor challenged the cl*** to write a short story in the span of one hour.
I took pen in my hand,and considered the blank paper before me.

I came up with an idea.
I decided to write a story about hero that had special powers and who was able to stand his ground in a war and win it.

So before I had put one word down in actual black and white, I had already predetermined how the story would go,what things would happen, what the hero name was, everything that would happen in the story.

But the story itself did not actually happen until I wrote it out.
I had "predetermined" the story before I began telling it...but the story itself took time to write.


Now from time to time during that hour my teacher stopped by my desk and looked over my shoulder to read what I had written so far.
Now from the instructor's point of view, my story was all new and was just being told for the first time.

My story had no "preexistence"...my story came forth for the first time on the paper as I wrote it.

So it was totally brand new.

But as the author I had a plan in my mind before I put the pen to the paper.

I had totally worked out what I was going to do with the story,and nothing was left in doubt.

How does that equate to the pre-destination of an individual? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what your definition of pre-destination is?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Thus when I saw you had asked a few basic questions about what I believe I "predetermined" to answer them today....

Very funny Lol

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

How does that equate to the pre-destination of an individual? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what your definition of pre-destination is?

well...whatever the dictionary says i would guess?



The word"destination would be the place you end up at.,,,in other words yiur final fate.


The word "pre" is telling us that its determined before hand.

So I would understand it to mean all together that my ending was determined from the beginning,and nothing was left in doubt by the Lord.

This agrees with my example of writing a story and before I picked up my pen and put to paper the first word I had already decided beforehand how the story would end.

So in a very real way you can decide how things will go before you start out them.
There is no "preexistence", rather there is full knowledge and full understanding of how you want something to go from the beginning.
The story is not actually exist until written and until words appear on the paper and that takes time to do, but the story has a "plan" that you as the writer will use to create the story.