God Never Sinned - Do Mormons Agree?

[MickeyS]

Btw....THANK YOU...for answering my questions

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Btw....THANK YOU...for answering my questions

I have the free time today....most of the time this is not so.

Thus when I saw you had asked a few basic questions about what I believe I "predetermined" to answer them today..

But the answers did not write themselves,and this website and my computer do not seem to get along well all the time, so a few answers were lost along the way.

But most of what i wanted to say got posted...

"close-enough" anyway...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Btw....THANK YOU...for answering my questions

I have the free time today....most of the time this is not so.

Thus when I saw you had asked a few basic questions about what I believe I "predetermined" to answer them today..

But the answers did not write themselves,and this website and my computer do not seem to get along well all the time, so a few answers were lost along the way.

But most of what i wanted to say got posted...

"close-enough" anyway...

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

this is a long question, that has a bunch of breaks in it that toss the idea of the question off the rails...
I will try to shorten it up...


I think you are asking about the souls of children that die?



if this is what you want to know about we have very little in the Bible to pick from to get a answer with,but what we did see in the life of King David is that he lost a small child, and later said that one day he would go to be with it again.

From this small quotation in the Bible we can support the idea that children that die go to be with the Lord.

What we also find in the writings of Paul is that he talked about himself being "alive" before the law came...but once the law came he died in sins.
I take this to be Paul talking about himself as a child and at that time not being under the law, and so he was not under condemnation of the law.
But when he grew older and then came under the law, he failed to keep the law and died.

We can take this to also mean that had he died as a child he would have went to the lord too.

So in both the words of Paul and David we see this idea come out that a child that died goes to be with the Lord.

Right....so that means we are all saved as children...everyone. How does that fit into the OSAS?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

this is a long question, that has a bunch of breaks in it that toss the idea of the question off the rails...
I will try to shorten it up...


I think you are asking about the souls of children that die?



if this is what you want to know about we have very little in the Bible to pick from to get a answer with,but what we did see in the life of King David is that he lost a small child, and later said that one day he would go to be with it again.

From this small quotation in the Bible we can support the idea that children that die go to be with the Lord.

What we also find in the writings of Paul is that he talked about himself being "alive" before the law came...but once the law came he died in sins.
I take this to be Paul talking about himself as a child and at that time not being under the law, and so he was not under condemnation of the law.
But when he grew older and then came under the law, he failed to keep the law and died.

We can take this to also mean that had he died as a child he would have went to the lord too.

So in both the words of Paul and David we see this idea come out that a child that died goes to be with the Lord.

And how are we "born in sin" if children are saved?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im Bible school we talking about how man was made in the image of God and what that means.
The understanding I came to is that man is a moral creature, we have a spirit.
This is why when we die our dead body goes into the ground, for the body is from the earth, and our spirit goes to the Lord who gave it.
This also means that when I die, and you goto my grave and watch them lower my body into the earth, that all they you see being lowered down is NOT made in the image of God.

So the body is not important then? Where do we find this I'm the Bible?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Right....so that means we are all saved as children...everyone. How does that fit into the OSAS?

What Paul was talking about with his teachings that before the law came he was alive.
he does not say he was sinless.
He does not say he was "Saved"
But rather the idea we are talking about is found in the verse Acts 17:30

Walter Martin used to talk about how within the plan God has for the universe there is a harmony between what God has foreknowledge and predetermined, and what God knows man is capable of responding to.

Thats the key to understanding this for us today.
It;s like the Thief on the cross.
he had no good works to list, but yet found salvation via he statement of faith in our Lord.
He should be criticized for the life he lived,(he was a convicted thief after all and does not deny his past), but yet also we rejoice in that he was saved when he responded to the Lord in the way he was capable of.

He turned to the "light" he was given.

That is what all men must do.

Thats why questions about keeping the law are just so silly, for they are a side issue.
The Lord was asked directly what "works" should people do to do the works required, and the answer jesus gave was that there is only one "work" that is needed!

and that so-called "work" is to have faith and believe in the one God sent!!!!!!



I remember studying this in Bible school, and our teacher pointed out that in the GREEK it reads "Thee work" as in "the lone, the only," work God required.

But we must remember we are not saved by "Faith Alone" but rather we are saved by "GRACE though Faith"
Thus we are saved by Grace alone, and the path Grace takes is though faith...

Thus to return to the question you raise, we should not think that the soul of a child that has died is "saved" for the word "saved" has come to mean the act of "responding" to the light God has given, rather a better way to look at the question of the fate of the lost child is to understand as we do in ACTS 17, that God does "overlook" the problems we had as kids because he also has complete harmony with the idea that he understands what we are capable of responding to at each stage in our lives.





now as for the topic of OSAS?
I have written a lot on that topic over the years here.

The basic idea I teach is that just as my salvation was a gift, so to is the maintaining of my salvation.

I did not earn my salvation
I do not perform works each day in the effort to maintain my salvation.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

So the body is not important then? Where do we find this I'm the Bible?

You mean ashes to ashes, dust to dust?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

And how are we "born in sin" if children are saved?

Im not sure we have defined "Born in sin" yet?

Be that as it may, I do believe that we should not consider dead children as being "saved" in the same way i think of myself now as "saved" for I use the term "saved" now with the context of having "Responded" to the calling I got from God.

But I also believe that had I died as a child that god would have overlooked my sins, (and they were many im sure) because he also has harmony with the idea that he knows what I was capable of responding to as I grew into a man.

[alanmolstad]

I have lots of free time today, let me know if you have any questions about anything else I have written on?

I also take questions off the air as it were, and answer them via the Private Message forum should you or anyone else have a question you wanted to ask but not out in the general open forum?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I use the term "persons"
God is found in the bible as being in 3 persons within the One God.


This I have to try to keep seprate fromthe idea of the common understanding of "people"
Fof the term "people" is very connected to the idea of "human".
I want to make sure that when we talk about God, we use terms that try to make very clear what we are talking about.
I use the term "persons" to show that they are "personalities"to themselves, they are separate...they are unique.they are ableto interact with each other in a very real way, and not just in some type of "theory"

But Christ has a very HUMAN body..and He looks like His Father..so...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

But Christ has a very HUMAN body..and He looks like His Father..so...

Christ is said to be the image of the invisible God...

He is both fully God, and fully man.

Just as much man as I am,,,just as much God as the father is...

So Christ has two totally different natures.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have lots of free time today, let me know if you have any questions about anything else I have written on?

I also take questions off the air as it were, and answer them via the Private Message forum should you or anyone else have a question you wanted to ask but not out in the general open forum?

Unfortunately I do not have lots of time today, I'm going out of town, I'm reading what I can.
Why not ask questions in open forum? We are asked plenty of questions

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

But Christ has a very HUMAN body..and He looks like His Father..so...

Christ is said to be the image of the invisible God...

He is both fully God, and fully man.

Just as much man as I am,,,just as much God as the father is...

So Christ has two totally different natures.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have lots of free time today, let me know if you have any questions about anything else I have written on?

I also take questions off the air as it were, and answer them via the Private Message forum should you or anyone else have a question you wanted to ask but not out in the general open forum?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You mean ashes to ashes, dust to dust?

So if the body isn't important....why will we be resurrected?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Why not ask questions in open forum? We are asked plenty of questions

yes, but I have seen over the years that some guests to this forum find that they have a question about a matter or want more information, yet dont want to have it discussed in the open forum...

So to respect that, I have always answered questions in Private message form so as to get answers to people without making them ask them in the open...

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have lots of free time today, let me know if you have any questions about anything else I have written on?

I also take questions off the air as it were, and answer them via the Private Message forum should you or anyone else have a question you wanted to ask but not out in the general open forum?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im not sure we have defined "Born in sin" yet?

Be that as it may, I do believe that we should not consider dead children as being "saved" in the same way i think of myself now as "saved" for I use the term "saved" now with the context of having "Responded" to the calling I got from God.

But I also believe that had I died as a child that god would have overlooked my sins, (and they were many im sure) because he also has harmony with the idea that he knows what I was capable of responding to as I grew into a man.

I still never got biblical reference to the calling from God

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Why not ask questions in open forum? We are asked plenty of questions

yes, but I have seen over the years that some guests to this forum find that they have a question about a matter or want more information, yet dont want to have it discussed in the open forum...

So to respect that, I have always answered questions in Private message form so as to get answers to people without making them ask them in the open...

[alanmolstad]

forum seems to lock-up on me a lot...will try to keep going

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

I still never got biblical reference to the calling from God

http://www.whatdidjesussay.com/follow-me/

[MickeyS]

Why must I ask MY questions privately? I am only asking questions about things that I have been addressed with. Why on earth would I answer your questions in open forum to be told I'm simply "wrong" and not be able to ask anyone why they're "right"? I'm just asking bible & verse to back the things I'm "wrong" about. And while you're answering questions, (which I very much appreciate) I'm still not getting that.

I only ask...to be treated the same..as everyone else..it's not a difficult concept, I'm not trying to be rude, it just seems like every time I try to get somewhere, I get shot down or chastised lol.

Never mind...I'll address these privately when I get where I'm going

[alanmolstad]

forum seems to lock-up on me a lot...will try to keep going

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Why must I ask MY questions privately?

'must"?????



slow down son, I think you have slightly misunderstood a few things...LOL


No one is "must-ing' anyone here...

I just offering to you or anyone else that prefers a private answer that I do that out of respect for people's privacy.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have lots of free time today, let me know if you have any questions about anything else I have written on?

I also take questions off the air as it were, and answer them via the Private Message forum should you or anyone else have a question you wanted to ask but not out in the general open forum?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://www.whatdidjesussay.com/follow-me/

That gives no bible verses about a "calling from God" only verses in which people were actually addressed in person by Christ. Those would be they who would be "without excuse"

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

That gives no bible verses about a "calling from God" only verses in which people were actually addressed in person by Christ. Those would be they who would be "without excuse"

pick up your cross, and "follow me"