Religion built upon a god who failed.

[Christian]

Wouldn't that mean that GOD FAILED in setting up HIS CHURCH 2,000 years ago?

Wouldn't that ALSO MEAN that GOD FAILED to understand that the Apostles would all die?

Did GOD FAIL to set up a system in which HIS WORD, THE SCRIPTURES would remain intact?

What kind of stupid LITTLE god would do those things?

Oh yes, the MORMON god. . .

Why would God need to 'restore' Christ's church?

Joseph smith's whole religion is built upon a god who failed. . .

WHY should we believe their religion at all?

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

What kind of stupid LITTLE god would do those things?

Must be the Protestant god, because God didn't fail.

[theway]

Originally Posted by Christian

Wouldn't that mean that GOD FAILED in setting up HIS CHURCH 2,000 years ago?

Wouldn't that ALSO MEAN that GOD FAILED to understand that the Apostles would all die?

Did GOD FAIL to set up a system in which HIS WORD, THE SCRIPTURES would remain intact?

What kind of stupid LITTLE god would do those things?

Oh yes, the MORMON god. . .

Why would God need to 'restore' Christ's church?

Joseph smith's whole religion is built upon a god who failed. . .

WHY should we believe their religion at all?

Mormons believe in a restoration. Orthodox Christianity believes in unbroken authority.

As a Protestant, you don't even have a horse in this race.
That what's so funny... In order for Faith Alone and other Protestant beliefs to be true... The Church Christ set up would have had to of failed. You're arguing against yourself.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Christian

Wouldn't that mean that GOD FAILED in setting up HIS CHURCH 2,000 years ago?

Wouldn't that ALSO MEAN that GOD FAILED to understand that the Apostles would all die?

Did GOD FAIL to set up a system in which HIS WORD, THE SCRIPTURES would remain intact?

What kind of stupid LITTLE god would do those things?

Oh yes, the MORMON god. . .

Why would God need to 'restore' Christ's church?

Joseph smith's whole religion is built upon a god who failed. . .

WHY should we believe their religion at all?

It's ok Christian, it will all be explained to you when Christ comes again

Seriously though...of course God could have intervened and prevented the apostasy, but He can't override free agency...that would make Him a liar. We are here to exercise our free agency. I don't understand why it's so hard to believe there was an apostasy and a falling away from Christ's church...the leader of said church was crucified after all, and His apostles were killed...why is it so hard to believe that with the inspired leaders of the church dead and gone, the church would go astray? And at that...why on earth would He have allowed the apostles to have been martyred like that so quickly?? That's a pretty crazy system.

And as you don't believe God spoke to man anymore after Christ and His apostles...how exactly was He supposed to GUARANTEE His church would remain absolutely perfect without messing with free agency? How can He do that without forcing His will on others. Do you believe God takes free agency from us? If you do than you believe in a contradictory God who allows SOME people free will (to kill apostles) but not other people (when it comes to the Bible) You believe in an arbitrary God?

God could "set up" the PERFECT "system"...but He still has to hand the reigns over to HUMANS. And humans aren't perfect. Do you believe God forced man to keep His Gospel intact? Actually, I know for a fact you don't believe God forced man to keep His Gospel intact because you don't believe the Catholic Church is true either....and it was "allowed" full reign of Christianity for a long time...why did God allow that?? If He wouldn't allow His word or His scripture to be twisted or changed...why are there SO MANY translations of the Bible? Do you believe God is a failure? Do you believe God failed to make it clear what church was in charge? Because as far as history goes....you're a Protestant...which means your sect of Christianity either broke off from the Catholic Church or was attempting to reform the Catholic Church 1,000 years after it was formed. Wow....that's a long time for God to "allow" His church to be lead astray. Except according to you it never was lead astray..so you DO believe the Catholic Church true then? I thought you didn't believe they were Christian...

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Must be the Protestant god, because God didn't fail.

CHRIST'S God didn't fail.

CHRIST'S CHURCH didn't fail.

Mormonism is built upon a lie when it claims it did.

[Christian]

way posted:

Mormons believe in a restoration. Orthodox Christianity believes in unbroken authority.

The unbroken authority of ALL CHRISTIANS to speak for and act for God. NOT for manmade 'authority' supposedly gained by joey smith and oliver cowdrey when they went out into the woods and played 'religion,' supposedly baptizing and ordaining each other into their imaginary new religion.

As a Protestant, you don't even have a horse in this race.

Who is a 'protestant?' I am not. That is an imaginary group invented by your catholic friends into which they dump ALL NON-CATHOLICS INCLUDING MORMONS.

I am not a 'protestant.' I am simply a BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN. So far you have not shown that joey smith OR his followers have 'a horse' in this race.

That what's so funny... In order for Faith Alone and other Protestant beliefs to be true... The Church Christ set up would have had to of failed. You're arguing against yourself.

Since you don't have a CLUE what you are talking about, I won't even bother addressing your nonsensical remark.

I'll continue to pray that one day you will find the REAL Jesus Christ and leave your heathen cult for HIM.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

CHRIST'S God didn't fail.

That's what I said.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Erundur

That's what I said.

Oh....yes...that's exactly what you said

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000FF]

The unbroken authority of ALL CHRISTIANS to speak for and act for God. NOT for manmade 'authority'.

I'm curious...not trying to fight...as to what you believe about why Christ ordained men with priesthood authority if that wasn't supposed to be something we were supposed to do ever again? What was the purpose for that?

And also...what was the purpose of Christ being baptized if we weren't supposed to do that either? He didn't need to be baptized, He had no sin, the only reason I could see that He did that was a-because His Father commanded Him and b-to set an example for us to follow. So I really would like to know what you think about that, and where in the Bible it says what you believe.

Thanks~

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

I'm curious...not trying to fight...as to what you believe about why Christ ordained men with priesthood authority if that wasn't supposed to be something we were supposed to do ever again?

Im not sure when he is said to have done this?
the church had Apostles as they were the few who walked with the Lord while he was alive, but that was not an office that was p***ed on to others.

I know that the 12 once tried to stop a guy from preaching and doing stuff that was not connected to them and Jesus told them to not bother the other guy.
To me that kinda shows that the idea of "Apostolic Line"is a joke as the other guy clearly was not connected to the 12 yet was not stopped by Jesus from preaching.

I also remember that after the resurrection of Christ the 11Deciples decided to get a replacement for Judas, and yet not much is heard of that guy after being named one of the 12, so that seems to suggest that the "office" was not going to be something p***ed on to others like that despite the efforts of men to do so..

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

And also...what was the purpose of Christ being baptized ?

Even John raised that question with Jesus when Jesus came to him.

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Even John raised that question with Jesus when Jesus came to him.

And Jesus gave him the answer... "To fulfill all righteousness". In other words, unless Christ was baptized, He would have been disobedient.

[Christian]

mickey posted:

I'm curious...not trying to fight...as to what you believe about why Christ ordained men with priesthood authority if that wasn't supposed to be something we were supposed to do ever again? What was the purpose for that?

Please show us IN THE BIBLE where Christ 'ordained men with priesthood authority.' I don't think you can find ONE SINGLE PRIEST in the New Testament church other than TWO EXCEPTIONS, Jesus Himself (the ONLY Melchizedek priest) and EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE (Christ's ROYAL PRIESTHOOD OF ALL BELIEVERS, EVERY CHRISTIAN EVERYWHERE).

1 Peter 2:7-10
7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient,
"The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,"
8 and
"A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense."
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.
NKJV

The 'priesthood' setup joey smith invented is not in the New Testament church of the Bible ANYWHERE.

And also...what was the purpose of Christ being baptized if we weren't supposed to do that either? He didn't need to be baptized, He had no sin, the only reason I could see that He did that was a-because His Father commanded Him and b-to set an example for us to follow. So I really would like to know what you think about that, and where in the Bible it says what you believe.

We CHRISTIANS are not baptized because Jesus was baptized (He was not baptized into Jesus Christ, but into repentance, an OT baptism). We CHRISTIANS are baptized because He COMMANDED US TO BAPTIZE DISCIPLES (and that is what we are, amongst other things) (Matt 28:19) and because of various examples of Christians BEING BAPTIZED AFTER THEY HAD RECEIVED FAITH IN JESUS (Pentecost, the Eunuch, jailer, etc etc etc)

Does that help you?

[alanmolstad]

I re-readthe question,and I got to that part where it was suggestedthatone of the reasons that Jesus was baptised was because the "Father commanded him to be"....and I hadtostop there and ask....


Where ?


Where would you get the idea that the father commanded the Son to be baptized?

That is clearly NOT why Jesus went to John to be baptized.

[alanmolstad]

I re-read the question,and I got to that part where it was suggested that one of the reasons that Jesus was baptized was because the "Father commanded him to be"....and I had to stop there and ask....


Where is that?

[Christian]

Mickey posted:

It's ok Christian, it will all be explained to you when Christ comes again.

What do you think would be God's motive for 'explaining' the nonsense believed by Ungodly cults like Mormonism?

Seriously though...of course God could have intervened and prevented the apostasy, but He can't override free agency...that would make Him a liar. We are here to exercise our free agency.

NOBODY can come to Jesus unless HIS FATHER DRAWS HIM (SOME are not drawn, it seems) John 6:65

I don't understand why it's so hard to believe there was an apostasy and a falling away from Christ's church...

There have been MANY apostasies (or fallings away) from Christ's church. It's joey smith's fantasy that the church 'lost its authority' to act for God and 'lost its gospel' that is a bunch of hooey.

the leader of said church was crucified after all, and His apostles were killed...

Some were. John lived on the Isle of Patmos until he died at a ripe old age (He COULD have called others to be his 'successors' if that had been God's plan, but it wasn't God's plan to replace the apostles except for Judas)

why is it so hard to believe that with the inspired leaders of the church dead and gone, the church would go astray?

You leave a VERY important Person out of the mix. The Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit of God, left to teach, guide Christians everywhere. You underestimate HIM badly.

And at that...why on earth would He have allowed the apostles to have been martyred like that so quickly?? That's a pretty crazy system.

Many were martyred. John was not. You need to check your history. God didn't make a crazy system that would leave the world without the church that HE PROMISED (the Gates of Hell would NOT prevail or 'win over' Christ's church) would not fall.

And as you don't believe God spoke to man anymore after Christ and His apostles...

God speaks to ME daily, through HIS WORD, the BIBLE. I'm sorry if YOU DON'T HAVE THAT. . .

Your so-called 'modern-day-revelators' haven't added EVEN ONE NEW REVELATION to your d&c for about 100 years now. . .so much for "modern-day ANYTHING"!!!

Your last 4 or 5 'revelators' have 'revealed' NOTHING FROM GOD AT ALL.

So much for your 'modern-day-revelation.'

how exactly was He supposed to GUARANTEE His church would remain absolutely perfect without messing with free agency? How can He do that without forcing His will on others. Do you believe God takes free agency from us? If you do than you believe in a contradictory God who allows SOME people free will (to kill apostles) but not other people (when it comes to the Bible) You believe in an arbitrary God?

Matt 20:16
For many are called, but few chosen."
NKJV

Matt 7:13-1413 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
NKJV


I simply believe the God of the Bible.
breakfast calls, I will try to get back to this later.

You are operating on a WHOLE LOT OF SPECULATION and no SCRIPTURE to support your theory that man has 'free will' to choose whatever he wants whenever he wants. The Bible never says that.

[alanmolstad]

The Son only does things he SEES the Father doing!

The Cross, the Baptism are all things the Son came to do.
Jesus talked about laying down his life, and that none were able to actually take it,rather he gave it by choice.
the same is true for the baptism.

What is really going on is that like with the cross, Jesus gathers all men to himself as he is baptized.
The "righteousness" that Jesus talked about fulfilling, is to ours!.....ours, though him.


It works out in such a way as when Christ went onto the cross, he did so for me and you.





So rather than the idea of Jesus fulfilling a command of the father, a more correct understanding of the story of the Baptism of Jesus would be to see it as a story of the Holy Trinity in united action....

The Son in the water,
The Voice from heaven,
and The Dove descending ...

[Christian]

mickey posted:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
Wouldn't that mean that GOD FAILED in setting up HIS CHURCH 2,000 years ago?

Wouldn't that ALSO MEAN that GOD FAILED to understand that the Apostles would all die?

Did GOD FAIL to set up a system in which HIS WORD, THE SCRIPTURES would remain intact?

What kind of stupid LITTLE god would do those things?

Oh yes, the MORMON god. . .

Why would God need to 'restore' Christ's church?

Joseph smith's whole religion is built upon a god who failed. . .

WHY should we believe their religion at all?

God could "set up" the PERFECT "system"...but He still has to hand the reigns over to HUMANS. And humans aren't perfect. Do you believe God forced man to keep His Gospel intact?

Do MORMONS have to be 'forced' to keep THEIR religious books intact? WHY do you think God would NEED to force FAITHFUL CHRISTIANS to keep His Gospel intact? What an ignorant question you asked!

Actually, I know for a fact you don't believe God forced man to keep His Gospel intact because you don't believe the Catholic Church is true either....
Do YOU believe the catholic religion is Christ's church today? IF SO, WHY ARE YOU NOT CATHOLIC? In other words, you believe what I do, that the catholic religion apostatized (left Christ's church)

and it was "allowed" full reign of Christianity for a long time...why did God allow that??


??? I have NO IDEA what your strawman argument here is about. Perhaps if you re-wrote it to tell us what 'it" refers to? There has NEVER in all of the History of CHRIST'S CHURCH been a time when all CHRISTIANS were roman OR catholics.

The rcc was PART of Christ's church until it apostatized. BUT ONLY a part.

If He wouldn't allow His word or His scripture to be twisted or changed...why are there SO MANY translations of the Bible?

Multiple translations exist because LANGUAGE CHANGES. What 'gay' meant 50 years ago is NOT what it means today. What 'mouse' meant has changed too.

Of course YOU COULD NOT READ the original King James Bible. What you read today is the 7th REVISION of it.

We have over 5,200 partials and m****cript copies of the New Testament today, some as old as AD 120.
We have complete Old Testament copies older than that, including the Greek Septuagint that Jesus quoted from repeatedly. We have vast libraries from Biblical times, including lexical tools, so translation is not a problem.

Of course MORMONS HAVE NONE OF THIS. They cannot go to early documents to CHECK TO SEE IF JOEY EVER TRANSLATED ANYTHING AT ALL. No language tools are available for joey smith's imaginary 'reformed egyptian' language. All YOU HAVE is . . .nothing.

Do you believe God is a failure?

Nope.

Do you believe God failed to make it clear what church was in charge?

You are wrong again. JESUS has always been in charge of HIS CHURCH. Not some new cult invented about 200 years ago by joey smith. Jesus NEVER put ANY RELIGIOUS CORPORATION (rcc OR mormon) in charge of His church. HIS church has ALWAYS BEEN HIS OWN.

Because as far as history goes....you're a Protestant...which means your sect of Christianity either broke off from the Catholic Church or was attempting to reform the Catholic Church 1,000 years after it was formed.

Let's see now. . .I am a CHRISTIAN (not a 'protestant' at all), CHRISTIANITY has been here for about 2,000 years now. Your 'new religion' has only been around for about 200. I worship the same Jesus that has been the head of HIS church for about 2,000 years. HE NEVER FAILED.

I can worship with a Lutheran, ***emblies of God, Bible church, presbyterian, or evangelical free church in Spirit and in Truth. Jesus didn't built a 'religious government.' He built a church (CONGREGATION OF CONGREGATIONS). Your religious government will lead you to a very hot place if you follow it.

Wow....that's a long time for God to "allow" His church to be lead astray. Except according to you it never was lead astray..so you DO believe the Catholic Church true then? I thought you didn't believe they were Christian...

Your fourth-grade-level rhetoric is not worth responding to. You KNOW IT IS NOTHING BUT YOUR OWN TRASHTALK.


HOW STUPID IS THAT?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Erundur

That's what I said.

No 'protestant' anything there. No 'protestant God.' Simply GOD.

I am a CHRISTIAN, not a 'protestant,' btw.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

No 'protestant' anything there. No 'protestant God.'

Yes, I know the Protestant god doesn't exist. Protestants believe he does, though.

[theway]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I re-read the question,and I got to that part where it was suggested that one of the reasons that Jesus was baptized was because the "Father commanded him to be"....and I had to stop there and ask....


Where is that?

John 14:31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me. "Come now; let us leave.


John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 4:34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.

John 12:49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Yes, I know the Protestant god doesn't exist. Protestants believe he does, though.

Your imaginary 'protestant god' is the same god as your imaginary 'mormon god.' Your imagination makes you look ignorant. The God of the Bible is alive and well and living in Every Christian everywhere. Too bad mormons, white suprememcists and other cultists are left out. . .

The Christian God is not a man who 'exalted himself' and made himself into a god like the mormon gods supposedly are. And no, you cannot become one.

You can obey all the rules and 'ordinances' you wish, but since you follow the wrong christ, all of your 'ordinance-keeping' is for naught!

In other words,your religion has Nothing to offer anyone in relationship to the True God.

We Christians will continue to pray for your lost souls.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I re-readthe question,and I got to that part where it was suggestedthatone of the reasons that Jesus was baptised was because the "Father commanded him to be"....and I hadtostop there and ask....


Where ?


Where would you get the idea that the father commanded the Son to be baptized?

That is clearly NOT why Jesus went to John to be baptized.

Oh, I'm sorry, again, something I take for granted. I believe everything Jesus did was by the commandment of the Father.

John 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me

But yes...in Matthew, He was baptized
"...to fulfill all righteousness...
(To do the will of The Father)

Why is it you believe that Jesus was baptized?

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

Your imaginary 'protestant god' is the same god as your imaginary 'mormon god.'

Then why do Protestants insist that they're different?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Christian

mickey posted:



God could "set up" the PERFECT "system"...but He still has to hand the reigns over to HUMANS. And humans aren't perfect. Do you believe God forced man to keep His Gospel intact?

Do MORMONS have to be 'forced' to keep THEIR religious books intact? WHY do you think God would NEED to force FAITHFUL CHRISTIANS to keep His Gospel intact? What an ignorant question you asked!

Actually, I know for a fact you don't believe God forced man to keep His Gospel intact because you don't believe the Catholic Church is true either....
Do YOU believe the catholic religion is Christ's church today? IF SO, WHY ARE YOU NOT CATHOLIC? In other words, you believe what I do, that the catholic religion apostatized (left Christ's church)

and it was "allowed" full reign of Christianity for a long time...why did God allow that??


??? I have NO IDEA what your strawman argument here is about. Perhaps if you re-wrote it to tell us what 'it" refers to? There has NEVER in all of the History of CHRIST'S CHURCH been a time when all CHRISTIANS were roman OR catholics.

The rcc was PART of Christ's church until it apostatized. BUT ONLY a part.

If He wouldn't allow His word or His scripture to be twisted or changed...why are there SO MANY translations of the Bible?

Multiple translations exist because LANGUAGE CHANGES. What 'gay' meant 50 years ago is NOT what it means today. What 'mouse' meant has changed too.

Of course YOU COULD NOT READ the original King James Bible. What you read today is the 7th REVISION of it.

We have over 5,200 partials and m****cript copies of the New Testament today, some as old as AD 120.
We have complete Old Testament copies older than that, including the Greek Septuagint that Jesus quoted from repeatedly. We have vast libraries from Biblical times, including lexical tools, so translation is not a problem.

Of course MORMONS HAVE NONE OF THIS. They cannot go to early documents to CHECK TO SEE IF JOEY EVER TRANSLATED ANYTHING AT ALL. No language tools are available for joey smith's imaginary 'reformed egyptian' language. All YOU HAVE is . . .nothing.

Do you believe God is a failure?

Nope.

Do you believe God failed to make it clear what church was in charge?

You are wrong again. JESUS has always been in charge of HIS CHURCH. Not some new cult invented about 200 years ago by joey smith. Jesus NEVER put ANY RELIGIOUS CORPORATION (rcc OR mormon) in charge of His church. HIS church has ALWAYS BEEN HIS OWN.

Because as far as history goes....you're a Protestant...which means your sect of Christianity either broke off from the Catholic Church or was attempting to reform the Catholic Church 1,000 years after it was formed.

Let's see now. . .I am a CHRISTIAN (not a 'protestant' at all), CHRISTIANITY has been here for about 2,000 years now. Your 'new religion' has only been around for about 200. I worship the same Jesus that has been the head of HIS church for about 2,000 years. HE NEVER FAILED.

I can worship with a Lutheran, ***emblies of God, Bible church, presbyterian, or evangelical free church in Spirit and in Truth. Jesus didn't built a 'religious government.' He built a church (CONGREGATION OF CONGREGATIONS). Your religious government will lead you to a very hot place if you follow it.

Wow....that's a long time for God to "allow" His church to be lead astray. Except according to you it never was lead astray..so you DO believe the Catholic Church true then? I thought you didn't believe they were Christian...

Your fourth-grade-level rhetoric is not worth responding to. You KNOW IT IS NOTHING BUT YOUR OWN TRASHTALK.


HOW STUPID IS THAT?

Yeah....I didn't give you scripture, you have a tendency to ignore it lol. I gave scripture verses in direct response to your Isaiah verses like I told you I would. It was a big response, and even provided a link to the thread when you asked why I wasn't responding, you never said one word about it, I have on some of your other comments too (just recently I was trying to discuss a scripture with you and you stopped responding)...I do try, but it's a lot of effort to go through when nobody addresses them. I'm not being rude, just being honest.

But that's ok Christian, I'm used to your responses, not a big deal
I understand your fervent intense testimony. I truly do. I appreciate that The Savior has changed your life, you've born witness to that a few times. And I know you're not a "Hey look at me I'm a Christian!" Christian by the way you carry a simple cross around your neck next to your heart as a reminder of our Savior's sacrifice and what that means to you personally (I was touched by that) I have experienced that great change as well, my life was quite literally in the gutter when I completely handed it all over to Him, He LITERALLY saved my life (both temporal and spiritual) I do know how that makes someone fiercely protective of their beliefs, so I can be prone to being snide with my responses...but I truly don't like to do that, I'll try to keep the snarkiness to a minimum, it's not productive.

So then you believe there are no leaders or an organized church, just certain Christian churches, but not all Christian churches? I'm just simply trying to get a good bead on what your beliefs are. My beliefs are that Christ established a church unified in congregations that were separated by locations but not by doctrinal differences...but it was still one organized church. With Jesus at the head, His twelve apostles (one of which was replaced when Judas left) and other leaders ordained with priesthood authority...as found in the Bible
Ephesians 2:20
Luke 10:1
Ephesians 4:11-13
Matthew 16:19
John 15:16
Luke 9:1-2
Etc...These are a few, I don't have time to list the full scripture, I can do so later.

I do have ONE question for you. Do you believe every single man who has handled and translated the bible (and the doctrine that has been handed down from it) was ABSOLUTELY perfect? (Like Christ perfect) and made NO mistakes? That they were completely infallible?

Again, not fighting, just a sincere question. Thanks~