mostly what I see true in the actions of Smith and the reason he did the things he did was.....sex.
Thats about it....mostly just the sex was his main concern with his teachings....sex and power and money to be sure..
But when you read of how he would try to jump from bed to bed with different young girls, and how he was sniffing around the wives of the men he sent out of town on a 'mission", when you read that even at the end when he was on the run from the people who were out to kill him, even then as he took shelter in the homes of his most trusted followers, even THEN he would chase after the young daughters who also lived there.
Yes, I can see why you would believe it was about sex. Or as Jesus Christ stated: "And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant" Luk 19:22mostly what I see true in the actions of Smith and the reason he did the things he did was.....sex.
Thats about it....mostly just the sex was his main concern with his teachings....sex and power and money to be sure..
But when you read of how he would try to jump from bed to bed with different young girls, and how he was sniffing around the wives of the men he sent out of town on a 'mission", when you read that even at the end when he was on the run from the people who were out to kill him, even then as he took shelter in the homes of his most trusted followers, even THEN he would chase after the young daughters who also lived there.
The one thing I come to understand about men is that they way that they see Joseph Smith tells me a LOT about how they see women. Marriage to them is about sex, not love, not protection, not responsibility. Therefore, if Joseph Smith married more than one woman, it must because he wanted sex. Because in YOUR eyes, this is what women and marriage must be for.
On the other hand, Christ also states "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." Mat 7:18
And here is the proof of the revelations given to Joseph Smith regarding marriage--my husband, my son, my son-in-law--each treat their wife well. Their belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ as restored by Joseph Smith has turned their hearts from lustful beings into men who honor their wives and marriage.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
I liked your observation about how men see Joseph Smith and marriage. I think there is truth in that.
BTW your inbox is full.
From the forum rules: "The definition of a derogatory term is one that insults, belittles or treats a group or individual with contempt. "
"If you have to resort to making fun of people and their ideas, you have nothing valuable to contribute here."
How does that verse apply to what molstad said? How was he being a wicked servant by making an observation about the proclivities of a man who claimed to be a messenger of God? Since we know Smith's sexual activity and pedophilia traits, Molstad is not the one being wicked and how could Smith lead a church given the verses in both ***us and Timothy which state that overseers are to be the husband of one wife?Or as Jesus Christ stated: "And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant" Luk 19:22
There is no biblical instruction for church leaders to live as the patriarchs lived and have multiple wives, including female children.
Your interpretation certainly does not make what you say as true and mislabels men who make the same observation yet do not view women and marriage as you describe.The one thing I come to understand about men is that they way that they see Joseph Smith tells me a LOT about how they see women. Marriage to them is about sex, not love, not protection, not responsibility. Therefore, if Joseph Smith married more than one woman, it must because he wanted sex. Because in YOUR eyes, this is what women and marriage must be for.
You keep bringing this verse but do not provide any evidence that Smith was producing good fruit. He was killed because of his sins not because he was holy and producing good fruit.On the other hand, Christ also states "A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." Mat 7:18
This isn't proof as many mormon men had multiple wives including Brigham Young. The idea of polygamy was dropped even though Smith said it was a command of God to have more than one wife when it was revealed that Utah would not receive statehood if they continued to believe and practice polygamy. It wasn't a holy change of a divine mind but the greed and selfish desire to be part of a secular nation that drove the Mormon church to give up one if its supposed divine commands.And here is the proof of the revelations given to Joseph Smith regarding marriage--my husband, my son, my son-in-law--each treat their wife well. Their belief in the gospel of Jesus Christ as restored by Joseph Smith has turned their hearts from lustful beings into men who honor their wives and marriage.
check the new book thread to find my new books
Christ's statement speaks to the truth that those who are wicked jump to believing that others are wicked or motivated by wickedness. In terms of psychology, it is called projection.How does that verse apply to what molstad said? How was he being a wicked servant by making an observation about the proclivities of a man who claimed to be a messenger of God? Since we know Smith's sexual activity and pedophilia traits, Molstad is not the one being wicked and how could Smith lead a church given the verses in both ***us and Timothy which state that overseers are to be the husband of one wife?
What Biblical patriarchs are you referring to? Abraham, Jacob? Do you believe that Abraham would have multiple wives if God told him NOT to?There is no biblical instruction for church leaders to live as the patriarchs lived and have multiple wives, including female children.
I have yet to experience otherwise. A man who views marriage as honorable which includes the responsibility to wife and children tend to jump more to the responsibility, not the sex side. It speaks to where a man's brain in when he thinks of marriage and women.Your interpretation certainly does not make what you say as true and mislabels men who make the same observation yet do not view women and marriage as you describe.
The fruit is my husband, my son, my son-in-law and other men I know who live the gospel as revealed by Joseph Smith. You seem to think that fruit is only produced by a person, rather than the offshoots of what that person taught.You keep bringing this verse but do not provide any evidence that Smith was producing good fruit. He was killed because of his sins not because he was holy and producing good fruit.
Certainly, you would not require this same "proof" from Christ. Although the Pharisees called him wicked and murdered him for it, would you deny the "good fruit" of the lives today by those who believe in and follow Jesus Christ?
It is proof because my husband and I believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet. I also have many ancestors who did practice polygamy. I know what type of people they were and what type of children they had. You think this not fruit? This is exactly the fruit of the revelations given to Joseph Smith which include the sanc***y of marriage, the eternal nature of marriage, the eternal nature of family and of children. While Alan only sees sex, what the fruit of this teaching is a man who loves and honors his wife. No other church that I know of teaches the sanc***y of family and its special place to God like Mormonism does. This makes us unique. This is one of the most beautiful understandings of who we are and who we are to God. Alan sees sex. We see family, unity, eternity, creation.This isn't proof as many mormon men had multiple wives including Brigham Young. The idea of polygamy was dropped even though Smith said it was a command of God to have more than one wife when it was revealed that Utah would not receive statehood if they continued to believe and practice polygamy. It wasn't a holy change of a divine mind but the greed and selfish desire to be part of a secular nation that drove the Mormon church to give up one if its supposed divine commands.
So yes, what Alan states specifically speaks to his mindset and how he views women.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
I have read julie's post but will only respond to select points as most of her words are just pure foolishness.
The bible records many different biblical figures as having multiple wives at the same time but there is no verse providing God's approval or permission for this behavior.
Belief is not proof that something is true and of God. It is evidence that someone has accepted the words of another person.
The question that needs to be answered is-- who died and left julie in charge of the meanings and intent of other people's words? Going to the sex issue does not provide any evidence that the person providing the critique has a bad view of marriage.
check the new book thread to find my new books
1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
And yet these are the "patriarchs" that he identifies Himself with. He calls himself "The bible records many different biblical figures as having multiple wives at the same time but there is no verse providing God's approval or permission for this behavior.
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Mat 22:32
If He is their God and their ruler, if he did not condone polygamy, they would NOT have lived it.
[/QUOTE]The question that needs to be answered is-- who died and left julie in charge of the meanings and intent of other people's words? Going to the sex issue does not provide any evidence that the person providing the critique has a bad view of marriage.
Yes, I completely agree--who died and put you or Alan or anyone else in charge of the "intent".
Jumping right to sex when a person is a polygamist speaks to the persons mindset. If polygamy equates to only being a pervert for sex, then the same thing should be said about the patriarchs who clearly had multiple wives.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
And yet these are the "patriarchs" that he identifies Himself with. He calls himself "The bible records many different biblical figures as having multiple wives at the same time but there is no verse providing God's approval or permission for this behavior.
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Mat 22:32
If He is their God and their ruler, if he did not condone polygamy, they would NOT have lived it.
Yes, I completely agree--who died and put you or Alan or anyone else in charge of the "intent".The question that needs to be answered is-- who died and left julie in charge of the meanings and intent of other people's words? Going to the sex issue does not provide any evidence that the person providing the critique has a bad view of marriage.
Jumping right to sex when a person is a polygamist speaks to the persons mindset. If polygamy equates to only being a pervert for sex, then the same thing should be said about the patriarchs who clearly had multiple wives.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
but you and the mormon cult do not have the things of the spirit of God. There is no biblical foundation to have more 'scripture' along with the Bible. The Bible doe snot speak of another prophet coming to restore the original faith and why would God wait 1800 years to do that? Seems unfair that he would allow so many people die without knowing 'the truth' and being able to do something about it.1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned
postmordem (sp) baptism is not biblically based nor taught by Jesus or the disciples, nor is salvation after death.
Really, so Abraham did not lie to the Pharaoh? David did not commit adultery and murder?If He is their God and their ruler, if he did not condone polygamy, they would NOT have lived it.
Who said we jumped right to the sex? That is your idea placed upon our words and research which you know nothing about. Your dismissal of ****ysis by others is one of your flaws.Jumping right to sex when a person is a polygamist speaks to the persons mindset
Can't speak for molstad but I examine the evidence and the evidence shows that Smith had no regard for real marriage, no sanc***y of it or whatever you want to label it. you live in a dream world thinking that your prophet can do no wrong yet was killed for doing wrong not for being a light to a dark world.Yes, I completely agree--who died and put you or Alan or anyone else in charge of the "intent".
That and the fact that no ancient m****cript attests to the existence of this supposed true religious belief or that anyone followed it if it did exist. Since the book of Mormon has zero archaeological evidence to support one iota of its words, Smith's marriage antics fall into the same category as all his other deeds--sinful desire which means he wanted lots of sex.
check the new book thread to find my new books
but you and the mormon cult do not have the things of the spirit of God. There is no biblical foundation to have more 'scripture' along with the Bible. The Bible doe snot speak of another prophet coming to restore the original faith and why would God wait 1800 years to do that? Seems unfair that he would allow so many people die without knowing 'the truth' and being able to do something about it.1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned
postmordem (sp) baptism is not biblically based nor taught by Jesus or the disciples, nor is salvation after death.
Really, so Abraham did not lie to the Pharaoh? David did not commit adultery and murder?If He is their God and their ruler, if he did not condone polygamy, they would NOT have lived it.
Who said we jumped right to the sex? That is your idea placed upon our words and research which you know nothing about. Your dismissal of ****ysis by others is one of your flaws.Jumping right to sex when a person is a polygamist speaks to the persons mindset
Can't speak for molstad but I examine the evidence and the evidence shows that Smith had no regard for real marriage, no sanc***y of it or whatever you want to label it. you live in a dream world thinking that your prophet can do no wrong yet was killed for doing wrong not for being a light to a dark world.Yes, I completely agree--who died and put you or Alan or anyone else in charge of the "intent".
That and the fact that no ancient m****cript attests to the existence of this supposed true religious belief or that anyone followed it if it did exist. Since the book of Mormon has zero archaeological evidence to support one iota of its words, Smith's marriage antics fall into the same category as all his other deeds--sinful desire which means he wanted lots of sex.
check the new book thread to find my new books
Thank you. If one wants to declare something to be good or bad fruit, they need to look at more than what they want to see. In Julie's case she stops at a limited view of marriage and condemns everyone else for their views even though she has not provided a credible standard that defines her idea of what is good or bad fruit. She quotes the Bible using those terms but she is NOT using God's definitions. She uses her own which is not accepted by anyone but herself.
That is not establishing anything credible, legitimate or even evidence for defining Smith as good fruit. She also ignores all his sins and not once do we see Smith repenting of those sins. Where are the accounts of his being born again and a new creature in Christ. There are none. All we have is that the angel moroni appeared to him as he was in his sinful state. Why would God appear or send an angel to an unrepentant person to do his holy work?
check the new book thread to find my new books
double post
check the new book thread to find my new books
Or we do have the things of the Spirit of God and you just do not recognize it just as you do not recognize the prophecies in the Bible concerning the restoration. This is not unlike the Pharisees dismissing Christ and not recognizing what they had learned.but you and the mormon cult do not have the things of the spirit of God. There is no biblical foundation to have more 'scripture' along with the Bible. The Bible doe snot speak of another prophet coming to restore the original faith and why would God wait 1800 years to do that? Seems unfair that he would allow so many people die without knowing 'the truth' and being able to do something about it.
What? Yes is does.postmordem (sp) baptism is not biblically based nor taught by Jesus or the disciples, nor is salvation after death.
Well, I did not bring up David, but he did sin and he recognized it. Show me that Abraham recognized polygamy as a sin. I don't see it.Really, so Abraham did not lie to the Pharaoh? David did not commit adultery and murder?
Alan does. Read the beginning of this thread. You were the one who jumped in to defend him. I know about the research. I know Joseph Smith's history--both sides. And any researcher worth their salt can give both sides. Your dismissal of the other side is one of your major flaws.Who said we jumped right to the sex? That is your idea placed upon our words and research which you know nothing about. Your dismissal of ****ysis by others is one of your flaws.
No true. I don't live in a dream world believing that Joseph Smith was perfect--in fact, one of the first commandments Joseph Smith received was to repent---and it is in our scriptures. But you don't know that because all you have is one-sided propagandized "research"--if you want to call it that.Can't speak for molstad but I examine the evidence and the evidence shows that Smith had no regard for real marriage, no sanc***y of it or whatever you want to label it. you live in a dream world thinking that your prophet can do no wrong yet was killed for doing wrong not for being a light to a dark world.
And anyone who wants to see what Joseph Smith taught about marriage can look at our church today.
Oh my--is your faith based on archaeological evidence? I am surprised you believe the Bible then as there is "archaeological" evidence that man is much older than the Bible states. I didn't know your beliefs are based on science--and here I thought you said the Bible is your authority and that God is somehow dead in this equation and no longer teaches his people nor has prophets. Now you tell me not even the Bible is your authority. Sheesh--can't keep up with your changing of the goal posts.That and the fact that no ancient m****cript attests to the existence of this supposed true religious belief or that anyone followed it if it did exist. Since the book of Mormon has zero archaeological evidence to support one iota of its words, Smith's marriage antics fall into the same category as all his other deeds--sinful desire which means he wanted lots of sex.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
talking to julie is a waste of time. she doesn't understand anything.
check the new book thread to find my new books
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
As I stated, those questions make no sense and are incoherent. Rewrite them and fix those problems and you will get an answer
check the new book thread to find my new books
Here they are again---straight from the scriptures:
You can just refer to the scriptures then and explain what they mean.
Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Now, I have heard a lot of discussion why they are called "gods", but no one has explained why they are called "children of the Most High."
And
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. In this parable, what "many things" will this person be ruler over when he enters in the joy of the Lord?
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Here they are again---straight from the scriptures:
You can just refer to the scriptures then and explain what they mean.
Psalms 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. (Now, I have heard a lot of discussion why they are called "gods", but no one has explained why they are called "children of the Most High."
And
Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. In this parable, what "many things" will this person be ruler over when he enters in the joy of the Lord?
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
bump for DrDavidT
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
i won't cast pearls before swine but one thing is for sure, you do not know the context of the p***age and apply your own definition to the word 'gods'. Your misunderstanding of 'children of the most high' is understandable because you do not realize how those words are applied and that they may not reference those who are saved but are part of God's creation.
as for 'many things' that is up to Jesus to determine not me. it does not mean people will be made gods of their own planets. There is NO biblical teaching to support that idea and Smith included it in his heresy because he knew men loved power and control over others thus it was a tool of enticement not a word of truth.
check the new book thread to find my new books
but you and the mormon cult do not have the things of the spirit of God. There is no biblical foundation to have more 'scripture' along with the Bible. The Bible doe snot speak of another prophet coming to restore the original faith and why would God wait 1800 years to do that? Seems unfair that he would allow so many people die without knowing 'the truth' and being able to do something about it.
postmordem (sp) baptism is not biblically based nor taught by Jesus or the disciples, nor is salvation after death.
Really, so Abraham did not lie to the Pharaoh? David did not commit adultery and murder?
Who said we jumped right to the sex? That is your idea placed upon our words and research which you know nothing about. Your dismissal of ****ysis by others is one of your flaws.
Can't speak for molstad but I examine the evidence and the evidence shows that Smith had no regard for real marriage, no sanc***y of it or whatever you want to label it. you live in a dream world thinking that your prophet can do no wrong yet was killed for doing wrong not for being a light to a dark world.
That and the fact that no ancient m****cript attests to the existence of this supposed true religious belief or that anyone followed it if it did exist. Since the book of Mormon has zero archaeological evidence to support one iota of its words, Smith's marriage antics fall into the same category as all his other deeds--sinful desire which means he wanted lots of sex.
She has no answers about any of this because SCRIPTURAL ignorance and selective readings are the signature trademark of the mormon religion.
She is the 'natural man' referred to in 1 Corinthians 2:14 as are all 'true blue mormons.'
'big' posted:
Originally Posted by DrDavidT
but you and the mormon cult do not have the things of the spirit of God. There is no biblical foundation to have more 'scripture' along with the Bible. The Bible doe snot speak of another prophet coming to restore the original faith and why would God wait 1800 years to do that? Seems unfair that he would allow so many people die without knowing 'the truth' and being able to do something about it.
Or we do have the things of the Spirit of God and you just do not recognize it just as you do not recognize the prophecies in the Bible concerning the restoration. This is not unlike the Pharisees dismissing Christ and not recognizing what they had learned
Since there ARE NO SUCH 'prophecies in the Bible concerning any 'restoration of Christ's church, or its being 'lost,' or 'destroyed,' your fantasy is simply based on the lying words of the liar joe smith.
What? Yes is does.postmordem (sp) baptism is not biblically based nor taught by Jesus or the disciples, nor is salvation after death.
IF THE BIBLE SAID ANY SUCH THING, you would be able to PRODUCE THE P***AGES THAT SAY SO. You cannot find ONE SINGLE P***AGE IN THE WHOLE BIBLE where EVEN ONE CHRISTIAN EVER 'baptized' EVEN ONE PERSON WHO HAD DIED. Your fantasy is simply based on the lying words of the liar joe smith.
Well, I did not bring up David, but he did sin and he recognized it. Show me that Abraham recognized polygamy as a sin. I don't see it.
Really, so Abraham did not lie to the Pharaoh? David did not commit adultery and murder?
YOUR CLAIM WAS that people who sinned couldn't be 'God's People.' DrDavid just showed you to be WRONG.
Alan does. Read the beginning of this thread. You were the one who jumped in to defend him. I know about the research. I know Joseph Smith's history--both sides. And any researcher worth their salt can give both sides. Your dismissal of the other side is one of your major flaws.Who said we jumped right to the sex? That is your idea placed upon our words and research which you know nothing about. Your dismissal of ****ysis by others is one of your flaws.
Let's see now. . .the HISTORICAL 'side' says that joe smith was a letch.
The WHITEWASHED MORMON 'side' (with it's VESTED INTEREST in making joe smith socially acceptable) says not.
Hmmmm. . .WHICH SIDE should we REASONABLY BELIEVE?
Lunch with wifey calls; I will head to her place of business to have lunch with her.
In other words, you have no understanding--but only can continue to criticize my beliefs. Okay.i won't cast pearls before swine but one thing is for sure, you do not know the context of the p***age and apply your own definition to the word 'gods'. Your misunderstanding of 'children of the most high' is understandable because you do not realize how those words are applied and that they may not reference those who are saved but are part of God's creation.
as for 'many things' that is up to Jesus to determine not me. it does not mean people will be made gods of their own planets. There is NO biblical teaching to support that idea and Smith included it in his heresy because he knew men loved power and control over others thus it was a tool of enticement not a word of truth.
I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?