Joseph Smith's Motives

[alanmolstad]

This also points out the problem with Joe Smith, who invented and worshiped his own self-made image of the Lord.

Thus, Joe's Christ cant save squat.

Thus, Joe's sins remain forgiven ....and he burns today in hell.....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Abraham was very much guilty of adultery....

Please do contrast that with Paul's testimony:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(note: I don't believe Abraham was guilty of adultery)

So--why would Abraham be an adulterer--and God testify to this truth--after Abraham was dead?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

You accuse Abraham as an adulterer(and there is no record of Abraham repenting--as he had concubines until his death)--God testifies Abraham obeyed His voice and His commands.

How could a common adulterer fit the mold of God's testimony--found in Genesis26:4-5?

[alanmolstad]

no clearly Abraham was a sinner and guilty of many sins in his life...

The fact is, the whole family of Abraham and his sons and sons of son had a long history of sins and of haveing trouble telling the real truth...

They are not special to us because they lived sin-free lives....LOL



The thing that makes them special and worth looking to for guidance is that they had hearts the were filled with faith.
Not always doing what they should to be sure....
But as we see in the writings of King David (who was clearly guilty of adultery and murder) we see that while the flesh did cause his life harm,yet we read of his great love and faith that would turn to God over and over...



to say Abraham was not totally guilty of adultery is to try to cover-up his sins.....

To say David was not guilty of adultery and murder is to try to also cover-up his sins.


But that does them no help!!!!!!!





the honest thing to understand about all these guys is that they all had committed the sin of adultery, but because of their Lord's mercy, they were not lost.


They were guilty

They clearly deserved ****ation

But the Lord also forgives.






if you have the right lord, that is.....(Thats where old Joe Smith is in trouble , see above)

[alanmolstad]

the thing I get from the way the Mormon believers will race to try to put a bitter spin on the actions of their founder Smith is a lot like the people who tried to put a better spin on the actions of President Clinton (remember him?)

The people that tried to defend Clinton would dig up the dirt on other past presidents in an attempt to make Clinton's cheating not look so bad in comparison.

Its the same way now with the people that try to defend the actions of Smith.

They race to find people in the Bible that also had married other women (or in the case of Abraham, just had sex with) in an effort to make the actions of Smith not look so bad.


I remember once a Mormon said that "An older man being married to a young 14 year old girl was common at that time"....

My response to that attempt to put a better 'spin"on what is clearly the actions of a sexual predator is to then ask in return, "Joe Smith also slept with the wives of other men, is that also common at that time?, and excusable in the Bible?"

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

no clearly Abraham was a sinner and guilty of many sins in his life...

According to you:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostAbraham was very much guilty of adultery....

Again---

Please do contrast that with Paul's testimony:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(note: I don't believe Abraham was guilty of adultery)

So--why would Abraham be an adulterer--and God testify to this truth--after Abraham was dead?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

You accuse Abraham as an adulterer(and there is no record of Abraham repenting--as he had concubines until his death)--God testifies Abraham obeyed His voice and His commands.

How could a common adulterer fit the mold of God's testimony--found in Genesis26:4-5?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

no clearly Abraham was a sinner and guilty of many sins in his life...

According to you:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostAbraham was very much guilty of adultery....

Again---

Please do contrast that with Paul's testimony:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(note: I don't believe Abraham was guilty of adultery)

So--why would Abraham be an adulterer--and God testify to this truth--after Abraham was dead?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

You accuse Abraham as an adulterer(and there is no record of Abraham repenting--as he had concubines until his death)--God testifies Abraham obeyed His voice and His commands.

How could a common adulterer fit the mold of God's testimony--found in Genesis26:4-5?

[alanmolstad]

question...did Abraham sleep with another man's wife?.....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Please do contrast that with Paul's testimony:

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

(note: I don't believe Abraham was guilty of adultery)

So--why would Abraham be an adulterer--and God testify to this truth--after Abraham was dead?

Genesis 26:4-5----King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

You accuse Abraham as an adulterer(and there is no record of Abraham repenting--as he had concubines until his death)--God testifies Abraham obeyed His voice and His commands.

How could a common adulterer fit the mold of God's testimony--found in Genesis26:4-5?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

question...did Abraham sleep with another man's wife?.....

Alan--perhaps you could answer that--you are the one who accuses Abraham of adultery:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View PostAbraham was very much guilty of adultery....

Again--how did Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if what you testify to is true--IE--Abraham was an adulterer?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Thus, Joe's sins remain forgiven ....and he burns today in hell.....

Yikes. You have an interesting soteriology

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Alan--perhaps you could answer that--you are the one who accuses Abraham of adultery:



....

You know what?...Im actually not sure????

I mean I know a lot of Mormons attempt to hide the adultery of their founder Joe Smith by pointing to sex life of Abraham, but Im not sure is Abraham was as guilty of sleeping with the wives of his followers as old horny-Joe was?

I will have to ask around a bit to see if anyone can help me answer this question....

and yes, to be consistent, if anyone does find proof that Abraham slept with the wives of other men, then I say he should have gotten shot as well....


But then again, there were no guns back then you say?...well...fine, take the cow de-horner to him....
.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Yikes. You have an interesting soteriology

Im going to have to deduct -50 bonus points from your account, for using a word I have to GOOGLE....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--how did Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if what you testify to is true--IE--Abraham was an adulterer?

[

adultery is not the "Unforgivable" sin ....


Abraham is covered and has an escape as we read at 1 Corinthians 6:9



"Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

"
To be forgiven is to be as if you never sinned in the first place....

So when God says you are clean...its as if in His eyes you were never dirty in the first place...

But....

Abraham was a sinner,,,he sinned...he simply was not really good at a few things and it came back later to be a real problem for him and his Jewish children....(The whole Arab/Jew issue still is something that is always just short of destroying the world).
So we can see that Abraham was forgive by God , and his sins were not held against him....

Yet....


yet the earthly effects of his sin of adultery do still remain as something that even to day, 1000s or years later we are still dealing with and are behind things like the 911 attack etc, etc, etc,,,....

[alanmolstad]

so what Im saying is this...

Abraham was totally guilty of adultery...

(Look, we all know thats just the facts...We might nnot like it but thts just the way it is...)



I dont give a **** that his wife came up with the idea...that dont cut squat with me.

But that adultery is not the unforgivable sin...
Again I dont give a rip what this or that verse says as to this or that being "un forgiven" in your eyes...

,,
yes, people that "maintain" adultery are lost...
we get that..

People that do all sorts of sins that never repent are lost,,,,thats just the way it is...


But that also is not the end of the story correct?....

For as sin is pointed out, it is not pointed out without an way to find life out ofit...

..
The Faith that i have is that you can be guilty of all kinds of sins and yet find forgiveness....

Thus, Abraham can find forgiveness just as Clinton can...and thats lucky too,,,because many in the church faithful are also guilty of this same sin that King David and Abraham were also guilty of....

sin abounds it is true, but where sin abounds, Grace also abounds...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

question...did Abraham sleep with another man's wife?.....

still no answers to this simple question?....

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostAgain--how did Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if what you testify to is true--IE--Abraham was an adulterer?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

adultery is not the "Unforgivable" sin ....

I agree--please show us where Abraham repented.

Abraham is covered and has an escape as we read at 1 Corinthians 6:9 "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

But if one believes Abraham was an adulterer--then that verse only serves to further convict Abraham.

In your view Abraham was an adulterer--how is Abraham exonerated from the condemnation those scriptures show against an adulterer?

If repentance--then please show us where Abraham repented of being an adulterer.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You know what?...Im actually not sure????

I mean I know a lot of Mormons attempt to hide the adultery of their founder Joe Smith by pointing to sex life of Abraham, but Im not sure is Abraham was as guilty of sleeping with the wives of his followers as old horny-Joe was?

Alan--that won't solve your problem, in fact--it won't even touch it.

You accuse Abraham of adultery--regardless of how you come to that conclusion.

Again--how did Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if what you testify to is true--IE--Abraham was an adulterer?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

still no answers to this simple question?....

double post

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

still no answers to this simple question?....

Was Hagar married? We do not know but I doubt it. Abraham did not sleep with another man's wife but he committed adultery in God's eyes by having sex with a woman not his wife. Abraham did not practice adultery or polygamy like Smith did. BUT that is not the point of the Bible. We learn that God uses men to do great things even though they sin from time to time.

Abraham walked with God Smith did not. Abraham talked with God directly Smith did not/ Abraham was not fooled by demons in disguise as angels of light Smith was.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Was Hagar married? We do not know but I doubt it. Abraham did not sleep with another man's wife but he committed adultery in God's eyes by having sex with a woman not his wife.

Abraham had sex with numerous women--both wives and concubines:

Genesis 25:6-8---King James Version (KJV)
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

And I see no repentance there--or anywhere in the scriptures.

So--a couple of points:

How do you explain God's testimony?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How could one that you describe as an adulterer be described as one that kept God's commandments? Wasn't one of the commandments-- thou shalt not commit adultery?

How does Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Abraham did not practice adultery or polygamy like Smith did.

Abraham practiced polygamy--period.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Was Hagar married? We do not know but I doubt it. Abraham did not sleep with another man's wife but he committed adultery in God's eyes by having sex with a woman not his wife.

Abraham had sex with numerous women--both wives and concubines:

Genesis 25:6-8---King James Version (KJV)
6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
7 And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, an hundred threescore and fifteen years.
8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

And I see no repentance there--or anywhere in the scriptures.

So--a couple of points:

How do you explain God's testimony?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

How could one that you describe as an adulterer be described as one that kept God's commandments? Wasn't one of the commandments-- thou shalt not commit adultery?

How does Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Abraham did not practice adultery or polygamy like Smith did.

Abraham practiced polygamy--period.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--how did Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if what you testify to is true--IE--Abraham was an adulterer?

[/B]

I already answered this...

Look, turning to the sex life of Abraham to hide the sex life on Joe behind is just not going to work...

[alanmolstad]

Clearly Abraham was guilty of adultery....

Im not really sure if Abraham was also guilty of polygamy?, as to my mind to be guilty of polygamy you actually have to have married the girl...not just sleeping around on your wife with her.


I believe Abraham only had the one wife....I dont remember readong that he got officially married to some other girl while married to his one wife.

Now there are other men in the Bible that are totally guilty of polygamy, as they did actually offically "nmarry" a 2nd girl while married already to another girl.

But as far as I know, Abraham was not guilty of that sin.

[alanmolstad]

Clearly Abraham was guilty of adultery....

Im not really sure if Abraham was also guilty of polygamy?, as to my mind to be guilty of polygamy you actually have to have married the girl...not just sleeping around on your wife with her.

To my way of understanding the term, "polygamy" means to be really married to more than one girl at the same time....
That is the way i define the term.

I believe Abraham only had the one wife....
I dont remember reading that he got officially married to some other girl while married to his one wife.

Now there are other men in the Bible that are totally guilty of polygamy, as they did actually officially "marry" a 2nd girl while married already to another girl.

But as far as I know, Abraham was not guilty of that sin.






Another difference I see is that I have yet to read that Abraham slept with the wife of one of his followers?

I do not believe that Abraham ever offered $5 bucks to a girl to get her to sleep with him?..

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

How does Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation?

[

why do you run away from the words of Paul at 1 Corinthians 6:9 - 11 ?




Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


You tend to try to focus only on the warning that paul gives at the start where he says that people that are guilty of the sin of Adultery do not enter into the Kingdom....
But you stop short there in your study of Paul's teaching on this and fail to go on to the next part where Paul tells us that we are not forever trapped in our sins...

The moment Paul says - "For that is what some of you were" Paul shows us that we are not without hope of salvation...

Many in the church are guilty of adultery so what shall wesay to such people?

,shall we say only to them, "Sorry, if you are truly guilty of adultery Paul says you are beyond hope"???




If your defense of the sleeping around that Joe Smith did is to say it was not a sin because if it was Adultery then Abraham would be just as guilty, (and then you keep referring to the words of Paul that the people guilty of Adultery are lost)...then in effect what you are really telling the people that are totally guilty of the sin of adultery " You are lost forever, we cant help you"




I think the better idea is the following-

Abraham is totally guilty of adultery.
But...
Adultery is not the unforgivable sin.


and....

Paul does warn us that people that are guilty of Adultery will not enter into the Kingdom.
But...
Paul also teaches us that even if you are guilty of adultery you can be washed clean and enter into the kingdom.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Again--how did Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if what you testify to is true--IE--Abraham was an adulterer?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I already answered this...

Cite, please. You haven't even touched it yet--your retort was to run kick Joseph Smith--which has nothing to do with Abraham's polygamy.

Look, turning to the sex life of Abraham to hide the sex life on Joe behind is just not going to work...

I don't believe I have mentioned the name of Joseph Smith--so, let's leave Joseph Smith out of this.

Your accusation is had here:

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post Abraham was very much guilty of adultery....

My question was this--how does Abraham avoid Paul's condemnation, if he were an adulterer?

Galatians 5:19-21---King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If Abraham were an adulterer--why did God bear this testimony concerning Abraham?

Genesis 26:4-5---King James Version (KJV)
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.