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Thread: Did God LIE?

  1. #1
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    Default Did God LIE?

    The Word of God (the BIBLE) says that God only had ONE son that HE begat (Fathered).

    John 3:16-17
    6 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
    NKJV


    John 3:18
    18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    NKJV



    Mormons seem to think he has a wife or wives who pop their god's 'spirit children' out like popcorn.

    Do they REALLY BELIEVE God lied?

  2. #2
    MickeyS
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    I don't know Christian...DID God lie?

    Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of our Spirits and live? (Hebrews 12:9)

  3. #3
    MickeyS
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    But yes...Only Begotten...the ONLY of God's children of whom He is Father of both body & spirit.

    Why is Christ also referred to as "The Firstborn"? That would mean others were born after Him. More lies?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    Mormons seem to think he has a wife or wives who pop their god's 'spirit children' out like popcorn.
    That's only because you have absolutely no idea what we believe.

  5. #5
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyS View Post

    Why is Christ also referred to as "The Firstborn"? ...
    Here is THEE answer.

    "And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy."

    Now in the Bible we see that there are times when the "firstborn" is not actually the first one born.
    This shows us that the term "firstborn"can change and be given to another....in other words its a "***le"

    What does this ***le mean?...well, in the Greek I believe it means "preeminent", and that agrees with the last word in the verse "supremacy."


    So when the Bible gives Jesus the ***le of "firstborn" from the dead it is talking about the prominent position Christ has as being preeminent over all creation and does rule in supremacy.

  6. #6
    MickeyS
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    Ahhhhh multiple definitions then....like "Father" and "image"

  7. #7
    alanmolstad
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    check this out...

    "Colossians 1:15



    “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”



    The Watchtower teaches that the word “firstborn” in the above verse means that there was a point in time when Jesus was born or came into existence.

    Response: Although the word “firstborn” can mean one literally born first in time, it actually carries a much more important meaning. Firstborn can also mean “preeminent one” or “first in rank”. In the Jewish culture, the firstborn son had special rights and privileges as the heir or the one who received a double portion of the father’s estate. By reading the surrounding verses in Colossians chapter 1, we can see what the author intended firstborn to mean. While Paul magnifies the Lord Jesus as the Creator and Sustainer of all things, in verse 18 he says, “that in all things He may have the preeminence”.

    Point out to your Jehovah’s Witness friend the difference between the words “firstborn” and “first-created”. The New Testament uses the word firstborn approximately 7 times in reference to Christ, but not once does it refer to Christ as first-created. In fact, they are two entirely different words in the original Greek language.

    Two ways you can illustrate the meaning of the word firstborn are:

    1. Compare Genesis 41:51-52 with Jeremiah 31:9. Notice the change. Although Man***eh is the first one born to Joseph, Ephraim becomes the firstborn, or preeminent one.



    2. In Psalm 89:27 David is called the firstborn, even though he was the last one born to his father, Jesse."

    the above is taken from the following link
    http://www.towertotruth.net/AnsweringJWArguments.htm

  8. #8
    alanmolstad
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    and.....

    https://books.google.com/books?id=Yr...stborn&f=false


    I think the above link is actually taken from Walter Martin's book...

  9. #9
    alanmolstad
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    so to sum it up...



    What I have shown in the two links above is that there is a clear different in the terms "Firstborn" and the term "First created"


    "First created" is talking about the first thing that is made.

    "Firstborn" is a ***le to talk about the guy who has the highest position.
    This is why people like King David can be said to be the "firstborn" yet was actually the last guy born in his family...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post

    Do they REALLY BELIEVE God lied?
    I always find the rantings of AntiMormons amusing.

    In their minds they believe that there is no way their interpretations and understanding of the scriptures can be in err..............therefore, God must be the one to blame, not them; God must have lied!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    check this out...

    "Colossians 1:15



    “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”



    The Watchtower teaches that the word “firstborn” in the above verse means that there was a point in time when Jesus was born or came into existence.

    Response: Although the word “firstborn” can mean one literally born first in time, it actually carries a much more important meaning. Firstborn can also mean “preeminent one” or “first in rank”. In the Jewish culture, the firstborn son had special rights and privileges as the heir or the one who received a double portion of the father’s estate. By reading the surrounding verses in Colossians chapter 1, we can see what the author intended firstborn to mean. While Paul magnifies the Lord Jesus as the Creator and Sustainer of all things, in verse 18 he says, “that in all things He may have the preeminence”.

    Point out to your Jehovah’s Witness friend the difference between the words “firstborn” and “first-created”. The New Testament uses the word firstborn approximately 7 times in reference to Christ, but not once does it refer to Christ as first-created. In fact, they are two entirely different words in the original Greek language.

    Two ways you can illustrate the meaning of the word firstborn are:

    1. Compare Genesis 41:51-52 with Jeremiah 31:9. Notice the change. Although Man***eh is the first one born to Joseph, Ephraim becomes the firstborn, or preeminent one.



    2. In Psalm 89:27 David is called the firstborn, even though he was the last one born to his father, Jesse."

    the above is taken from the following link
    http://www.towertotruth.net/AnsweringJWArguments.htm
    I'm sorry.... But what does whatever the watchtower and JWs teach, have to do with Mormonism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MickeyS View Post
    But yes...Only Begotten...the ONLY of God's children of whom He is Father of both body & spirit.

    Why is Christ also referred to as "The Firstborn"? That would mean others were born after Him. More lies?
    You REALLY should learn what the word means. Firstborn was a RANK. Jacob was firstborn even though his brother gave up the ***LE AND POSITION (RANK) for a bowl of soup.

    Esau was born first. Jacob was Firstborn. Your BLIND ***UMPTION that others were born after Him does NOT mean Jesus was the first of many, OR THAT HE HAD ANY FAMILIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR DEMON SATAN.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    You REALLY should learn what the word means. Firstborn was a RANK. Jacob was firstborn even though his brother gave up the ***LE AND POSITION (RANK) for a bowl of soup.

    Esau was born first. Jacob was Firstborn. Your BLIND ***UMPTION that others were born after Him does NOT mean Jesus was the first of many, OR THAT HE HAD ANY FAMILIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR DEMON SATAN.
    Ahhhh..... Actually you are the one saying that Jesus was just one of many if you take the meaning of the phrase "First Born" to simply denote a rank. I then agree with you.

  14. #14
    MickeyS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    You REALLY should learn what the word means. Firstborn was a RANK. Jacob was firstborn even though his brother gave up the ***LE AND POSITION (RANK) for a bowl of soup.

    Esau was born first. Jacob was Firstborn. Your BLIND ***UMPTION that others were born after Him does NOT mean Jesus was the first of many, OR THAT HE HAD ANY FAMILIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR DEMON SATAN.
    Yes, a rank implies there are others....why would He need a rank if He's the ONLY ONE??

  15. #15
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    Mickey posted:

    Yes, a rank implies there are others....why would He need a rank if He's the ONLY ONE?

    You are rationalizing and speculating again. Obama is the commander-in-chief of our armed forces. Is there more than one commander-in-chief of our armed forces? Nope. JUST ONE.

    So your RATIONALIZATION is based on a lie, your theory that rank implies more than one.

    There is only ONE president of the United States. ONLY ONE Secretary of the Navy. . .etc etc etc.

    Sorry, but your theory falls back into the hole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    Ahhhh..... Actually you are the one saying that Jesus was just one of many if you take the meaning of the phrase "First Born" to simply denote a rank. I then agree with you.

    So you AGREE WITH ME that JESUS HAS NO SPIRIT BROTHERS? ONLY ONE person holds the rank of Secretary of Defense. Or are you trying to TWIST MY WORDS to mean something I clearly do NOT?

    Isn't that pretty DISHONEST?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erundur View Post
    That's only because you have absolutely no idea what we believe.

    I know what your religion teaches. YOU may not believe what they teach. Thus you are correct, I do not know what YOU AS A WIERD INDIVIDUAL believe. . .

    Are you going to tell us now that you don't believe what your religion publishes that IT believes?
    Last edited by Christian; 01-09-2016 at 09:38 AM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    I always find the rantings of AntiMormons amusing.

    In their minds they believe that there is no way their interpretations and understanding of the scriptures can be in err..............therefore, God must be the one to blame, not them; God must have lied!

    IN YOUR perverse mind only! The TRUTH is that we Historical Christians take the Bible AS IT IS WRITTEN. We don't ADD TRASH TO IT like the mormons, catholics, and other cults do. Neither do we REDEFINE it as you do.

  19. #19
    MickeyS
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    check this out...

    "Colossians 1:15



    “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”



    The Watchtower teaches that the word “firstborn” in the above verse means that there was a point in time when Jesus was born or came into existence.

    Response: Although the word “firstborn” can mean one literally born first in time, it actually carries a much more important meaning. Firstborn can also mean “preeminent one” or “first in rank”. In the Jewish culture, the firstborn son had special rights and privileges as the heir or the one who received a double portion of the father’s estate. By reading the surrounding verses in Colossians chapter 1, we can see what the author intended firstborn to mean. While Paul magnifies the Lord Jesus as the Creator and Sustainer of all things, in verse 18 he says, “that in all things He may have the preeminence”.

    Point out to your Jehovah’s Witness friend the difference between the words “firstborn” and “first-created”. The New Testament uses the word firstborn approximately 7 times in reference to Christ, but not once does it refer to Christ as first-created. In fact, they are two entirely different words in the original Greek language.

    Two ways you can illustrate the meaning of the word firstborn are:

    1. Compare Genesis 41:51-52 with Jeremiah 31:9. Notice the change. Although Man***eh is the first one born to Joseph, Ephraim becomes the firstborn, or preeminent one.

    2. In Psalm 89:27 David is called the firstborn, even though he was the last one born to his father, Jesse."

    the above is taken from the following link
    http://www.towertotruth.net/AnsweringJWArguments.htm
    Everything you just said about "firstborn" being a ***le points toward a rank among OTHER family members (namely siblings) What other family member do you believe Christ is ranked higher than if He has none? I think you just went a long way around to say the exact thing I was saying. Whether He was born first or ranks higher, He still holds that relation to us to be granted a rank among us. If the relation didn't exist, the ranking and ***le would be unnecessary. That's the point I was making. Firstborn denotes His ***le in relation to other family members....us.
    Last edited by MickeyS; 01-08-2016 at 05:25 PM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    I know what your religion teaches.
    If that were true, you would never have made that statement. But since you did, it is obvious that you have no idea what we believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Erundur View Post
    If that were true, you would never have made that statement. But since you did, it is obvious that you have no idea what we believe.

    Of COURSE you have to claim that. You may not believe what your religion teaches, but then. . .ya gotta say sumthin, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    I'm sorry.... But what does whatever the watchtower and JWs teach, have to do with Mormonism?

    They are both cults.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post

    They are both cults.
    And so is Christianty.... ....your point is???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post

    They are both cults.
    By the definition of a cult, so is Christianty.... ....your point is???

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    Quote Originally Posted by theway View Post
    By the definition of a cult, so is Christianty.... ....your point is???

    They are both NON-CHRISTIAN cults.

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