cracks in the Mormon wall...(a story)

[alanmolstad]

Once upon a time....

actually, a while ago at the church we attended for Bible school, we had a speaker come to our cl*** to talk about the Mormons.

She was a ex-Mormon, she had grown up in a Mormon family, married a Mormon guy...had Mormon kids..etc.

She came to our cl*** and taught on how to reach-out to Mormons at the door...
and what to say to them.
She had the normal stuff to say to us...like when the Mormon says __ we should answer with ___.

after her main presentation we had a time for questions and she was asked about how she came to see the truth about the Mormon church?

Her answer was to say it was not the teachings she learned from the Mormons that she called into question at first...it was the fact that on a issue she ran into in her life the Mormon church had left her unprepared for the hard truths about Smith she was running into.

She talked about the fact that her Mormon teachers did not even know about the many women Smith had.
She was taught that all the whispers that Smith married other women were all lies told by 'anti-mormons".

That was the way she answered anyone who tried to bring up the topic of Smith's sex life outside his real marriage to his wife.

"It's all lies"

But...what changed for her was the rise of the Internet...and the way it gave every Mormon and Christian the ability to do their own private research into history...and find out the facts.


what happened was that as the truth about Smith's running around started to be more widely known to everyone.
Her Mormon friends and her Mormon teachers started to say that Smith might have had other women, but that he was given special permission to "marry" them.


as she dug deeper into this topic, she started to see the record of the justifications that Smith would use to get women to agree to 'marry" him.
(Now remember this was years and years before the Mormon church finally admitted that Smith had many wives)

She told my cl*** that she would read how Smith would tell a girl that "God has given you to me as wife"....
and at first she believed in this idea...

for a while ....

But after a while, as she read more and more on how Smith would approach women, even married women and feed them this line, it started to look to her to be less a statement from Heavenly Father to Smith...and started to sound more and more like a cheap pick-up line you would hear at a sleazy bar.
"It's ok Honey, God wants us to do it"


Once it started to dawn on the lady speaking to us that she had started to see that Smith was not telling the truth about hearing from God about marring other women, she started to see that Smith was a very flawed man...

Smith appeared to her now as a flawed man with a very flawed view of marriage.


Once that happened, once she saw Smith was actually inventing stuff and saying it ws from God...it was like a crack had formed in the wall of Mormonism around her.

other things that Smith claimed now appeared to her in a different light.

Soon it was not just the "women issue" that the lady doubted Smith's word on...it was the whole matter of him finding the Golden Plates and the book of Mormon in the first place.

[alanmolstad]

Its not just the Mormons who can be reached by showing them their own hidden history.

When I was part of an outreach to the CULTS I did mostly a lot of stuff connected to the JWs and not the Mormons.
One time I even taught a seminar on how to witness to the CULTS where I talked about outreach to the JWs and a guy named Ed Decker talked next on how to reach out to the Mormons.

itwas interesting to notice that our approaches were alot alike!


When i would go to a church and talk about the CULTs I tried to tell christians that the CULTS have a bible verse on everything.
You cant think of a verse in the Bible to use against them that the CULT has not produced a whole booklet of ways to answer.

So what I taught to do with a member of a CULT is to go after the history of their CULT .

The truth is, while members of a CULT spend hours and hours on their teachings and how to defend them with the Bible, they yet know almost nothing of the hidden history of their own leadership.

This was so clearly shown here over the last few years when we think back to that "Nice Mormon Lady" (NML) who used to post here all the time.
She would attack anyone who tried to suggest that Smith had other wives.

She would call all such things, "lies invented by Anti-Mormons who just wanted to tear-down the reputation of Smith"

She had no doubt at all that Smith only had one wife, and remained sexually devoted to her his whole life.
I remember how guys like Jim and Billy would go on and on posting links to information where the NML could have read for herself the truth about Smith.

But she never bothered to read their links.
She said it was all lies by ex-Mormons with a axe to grind...so you cant trust them.


Then....one day...
Then one day the news came out that the Mormon church was changing its offical position on the question of Smith's many wives, and even onthe topic of Smith being married to very much underage youngsters.


well....things around here also changed overnight too.

the Nice Mormon Lady stopped posting here..

Oh I saw her name on a few to[pics, but it seemed that regardless of whatever they were talking about the subject of Smith's women came up and the Mormon Lady would stop posting and the topic would kinda die...


She stopped posting not long after...


I have no idea if she still is a Mormon or what?

[Ma'am]

Originally Posted by theway

Do you see the problem here?

As she admitted in her story 'doubt breed doubt' which shows that doubt will only cause you more doubt, nothing more.
Therefore it would have been impossible for her to have"found truth" through her doubt.
Because GOD NEVER USES DOUBT TO BRING ABOUT TRUTH.... Doubt is exclusively Satan's M.O.
Real truth only comes from the Holy Ghost... The Holy Ghost gives and confirms, it does not take away and destroy.
Being as all doubt comes from Satan, if she felt the need to doubt; she should of doubted her doubt, and not doubted her faith.

Notice also how none of her "story" states anything about having a testamony or having been converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ as it is within the LDS Church. Her whole testamony was built around what other people told her and what she chooses to believe from AntiMormon sources. As we can see by the few Threads that I bothered to reply to of your's, AntiMormon evidence is based on nothing more than 3rd hand gossip from conflicting sources at best, and outright lies at worst. The irony is that it takes far more faith to buy into AntiMormon "facts" than the Mormon version. She was just too gullible and faithless to have lasted long within the true gospel of Jesus Christ as it is within the Mormon Church. So her leaving the Mormon Church was inevitable. As I see no change in her, she will be no different in your Church than she was in the Mormon Church.... Full of doubt and disbelief, affecting others with that doubt and disbelieve.

Nonsense! God would WANT Mormons to doubt their doctrines, to doubt their founding prophet, and to doubt their history! Because so much of all of this is based upon LIES. God would WANT us to doubt lies! So we will flee from them to the truth--Jesus Christ!

[alanmolstad]

If I remember correctly, the lady in my story talked about not having any issues with basic Mormon doctrine or the way the Mormons had an answer for every Christian-raised objection to their teachings, Rather it came down to her learning the truth about the shady history of Joe Smith himself.

See, you have to understand that from the standpoint she had at the time, (the typical Mormon POV) she held Smith as being just this perfect saint type of guy.
She believe everything that was taught about him by the Mormon teachers, and she truly swallowed it hook-line-and sinker.

It was not until she got out in the world and the internet and she started to run into documented historical facts that simply she could not shut her eyes to about what a sick and sexually-creepy guy Smith actually was.


The answers she got from her Mormon friends simply sounded hollow to her after a while.

The defense that Smith had this special revelation, and Smith's story of an angel telling him to marry other women, all now started to sound more and more to her like a cheap pick-up line you might hear at a sleazy bar.

the lady talked about the way that once she came to the conclusion that Smith just invented the whole story about being told to marry other women it changed how she looked at everything Smith had also talked about.


Suddenly it dawned on the lady that Smith was a very despicable person who was clearly consumed with his sexual desires.

"Smith lied"
That is the conclusion the lady came to and it changed how she viewed the whole of the Mormon religion.

Suddenly everything fit into place with what the Christians in her life had been saying all this time to her.

The Golden plates were just yet another invented story that Smith came up with....

In fact the idea of finding the plates fits nicely in Smith's overall life of being a conman and tricking people into believing his stories on other junk he says he dug up.



The lady also did talk about what it was like for her in the beginning, when she first started to hear about Smith's other women.
She talked about how 'frustrating" it was for her at times.
She said that here she was, all excited to share her faith in the Mormon religion, and her being all ready to share scriptures, and then she would end up running smack into Christians that seemed only willing to talk about Smith's sexual conquests.

She said it was such a let down....

She spoke how embarr***ing it was for her in the beginning, to come face to face with the undeniable historical fact that Smith was really creepy around the women.





The lady also talked about the fact that she remained Mormon for a long time, even knowing the falseness to Smith's claims, and the moot point that the whole Mormon religion now appeared to her to be.
She talked about her path out of the Mormon church...how she learned that some of her friends that she though we such true-believers in Smith, were soon discovered by her to have come secretly to the same conclusion that she had come to about his lies.

She talked about the way she was able to bond with other ex-Mormons and provide support to others who were also on the path out of the CULT's grasp.

[Ma'am]

Originally Posted by theway

Not true... Please show just one place in the scriptures where God has ever told anyone to doubt anything.

God presents the truth, your *** is to then find it, after which the Holy Ghost will confirm it.
There are only three positions acceptable to God.
1. You KNOW something to be true.
2. You KNOW something to be false.
3. You do not KNOW whether it is true or false, but you have faith that the truth can be made known to you if you simply ask, and if it be God's will. But until you know it one way or the other, it is best to keep silent, and not profess to know the truth of it.

If you doubt something, it is because you only half BELIEVE in it. God would rather you be wrong about a thing than for you to be lukewarm about it, I.e. You Doubt it.
For instance, I KNOW your above statement is incorrect, because I sought God for the answer to this very question, and was given it.
Always hold fast to that which you KNOW to be true, never doubting it, else there can be no forgiveness in this world or the world to come.
Always seeking to ADD to that which you know to be true.

Please show me in the Bible where God wants us NOT to doubt a lie. For I KNOW that YOUR statement is incorrect. Would God want us to confirm a lie? OR believe a lie? YOU can think you know the truth, when it is not, but that will make it no less false. There are Muslims that KNOW that Allah is God and Mohammed his prophet and messenger. They KNOW that and do not doubt it. Does that make those things true? Does it make them less false?

If you wish to know the truth, then judge what Mormonism teaches with what the Bible actually says and teaches. You will notice that Mormon doctrines fail in almost every aspect, to line up with the Bible. The Bible is the final judge of what is the truth about Jesus Christ and the true Gospel message. NOT subjective feelings. And Satan can send those to "confirm" that a lie is the truth. After all, Paul wrote that even Satan can disguise himself as an "angel of light."

[BigJulie]

Yes, I have heard this story as well--Mormons who leave once they learn about Joseph Smith's history. My problem is that I have lived by the revelations given to Joseph Smith and I have seen how they work in my life. To me, leaving the church based on the history of Joseph Smith is the equivalent of never flying in a jet again because someone disclosed something about Orville or Wilbur Wright that I did not like.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

........-Mormons who leave once they learn about Joseph Smith's history..

The way the Lady explained about it, she said that it came down to a matter of her no longer having any trust in the character of Smith when it came to his constant attempts to bed younger women.

Its this whole "God says it's ok" excuse that Smith used to get women to consent to his sexual advances, after a while Smith's words just seemed to be a cheap pick-up line.

Once she came to that conclusion it opened her eyes.


So it was not really her being out maneuvered in an argument over Mormon doctrine , rather it was that she came to see that Smith was clearly making things up to get girls to sleep with him.....and that started her thinking about all the other claims the Smith made and how they too must now fall into question.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

To me, leaving the church based on the history of Joseph Smith is......

This part of your post reminded me of something else she told us about her journey out of the Mormon church.

She said that she while she did come to the conclusion early on that Smith was lying and simply inventing his stories about being told to marry other women, yet she was still able to remain a Mormon on the outside.

She spoke of her strong family connections to the Mormon church, her upbringing, her employment situation......and the fact that she was able to find a way to separate her faith in the Mormon "religion" from the fact that she now was 100% sure that Smith not only was lying about the polygamy thing, but had also lied about finding the Golden Plates and the work of their translation.

She grew to just consider the Book of Mormon as still useful as a work of "religious fiction" .

And likely would have continued within the Mormon church in this way, but for the fact that she started to find that others were also coming to the same conclusions about Smith that she had come to....and therefore found needed 'support" in her journey out of the Mormon religion.


She said that it was with the rise of the InterNet that she was able to make contact with others in her same situation, and information and the truth facts about the history of Smith were being shared..

Remember, this all was happening in her life at a time way before the Mormon Church changed it's official tune as to the number of wives Smith had.
So this was just part of the rising groundswell of Mormons who were suddenly able to do this type of research on their own...

[alanmolstad]

but it did start with this revelation about Smith's sexual fixation with other women , and the way this historical information was getting out (via the internet) that put that first crack in the wall that Mormonism had built around her.

Once she saw Smith was clearly making stuff up when he went after young girls it cast a new light on Smith's other claims.

Suddenly all the stuff that Christians had been telling her about Smith started to fit into place.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

but it did start with this revelation about Smith's sexual fixation with other women , and the way this historical information was getting out (via the internet) that put that first crack in the wall that Mormonism had built around her.

Once she saw Smith was clearly making stuff up when he went after young girls it cast a new light on Smith's other claims.

Suddenly all the stuff that Christians had been telling her about Smith started to fit into place.

Polygamy is an interesting thing to me as when it is discussed, one can see how one views women and marriage in general. (When it comes to polygamy, for me the history is easier to discuss in terms of Brigham Young rather than Joseph Smith because we can see the Brigham Young practiced polygamy. --As of yet, we still know of no descendants from any polygamist wife of Joseph Smith).

So, if we look at Brigham Young, we definitely know he had many wives and had children with many wives. So, the question becomes---is this truly a sexual fixation of men? I have polygamists in my own family history as well--were they sexually fixated men? I would say no. Why? For a couple of reasons--

First: because a wife is different than a mistress. To take on a mistress means a man gets the pleasure of sex without the responsibility of a wife. A wife means responsibility, legal obligations, children, etc.

So, when I want to know how a man views women (as a sexual object versus a person whom demands respect and a financial and otherwise major responsibilities), I can look at how he views polygamy. If a person immediately goes only the sexual aspect, I see objectification of women. If he addresses the full-commitment of a wife, I know he sees women as a whole being.

This applies to women as well. Do they see themselves as merely a sexual object for men to enjoy without other attached responsibilities, or do they see themselves as more?

Second: The fruit of these polygamist relationships. As I have polygamists in my own family line, I can read their journals as well as see how their offspring treat women. Do they treat them or see them as sexual objects or were they fully-committed as a husband seeing their wives as people and how do their descendants treat women? My experience is that these men of yesterday and the men of today do not view marriage lightly. They act responsibly and lovingly.

This is so different from what I see today outside of my church where women are regularly objectified and treated as sexual objects to be used and tossed aside.

P.S. I wonder if Christians would ever claim Israel (Jacob) as having a sexual fixation.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

First: because a wife is different than a mistress.


To take on a mistress means a man gets the pleasure of sex without the responsibility of a wife.


A wife means responsibility,........ legal obligations,........ children, etc.

Hi Julie!

I dont know if you have had a chance to look over the information found on the 2 links I have found on the different women that Smith hooked-up with?
(I will have to post them again)


But anyway,
I must say you are totally correct in what you state about the difference between being "married", and something else.

I remember the careful thought that both I and my wife put into our decision to get married....(over 30 years ago and still going!)
We got married in our church, and had to goto a "pre-married" cl***, then a lot of consoling with the minister and his wife, before they would allow us to get married in the church with it's blessings.
And after we were married they asked us to attend a"Young Marrieds" cl*** so as to help us get off the right start, and learning what it was to be a 'wife" and a "husband".

So Julie, I also think that there is a big difference between my being able to carry my bride over the threshold of my house and being able to live with her and share her life as a good husband should, compared to some of the guys I worked with at the time who simply have invented great pick-up lines that they used to convince girls it would be ok to invite them into her bed .





Now as for Smith?????

Julie, according to what you know about Smith.....and what you know about his going after different women.....and what you know about his tactic of sending married men on far away missions, only to then start hitting on their wives.....etc, etc, etc,

Do you think Smith was able to tell the difference between being married to a "wife", compared to just convincing girls to allow him into their bed as if they were a mistress?

[alanmolstad]

I will post the link again, and we can go over the information and see what Smith was treating the women and younger girls like?.....like a wife?
or like a mistress?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Hi Julie!

I dont know if you have had a chance to look over the information found on the 2 links I have found on the different women that Smith hooked-up with?
(I will have to post them again)


But anyway,
I must say you are totally correct in what you state about the difference between being "married", and something else.

I remember the careful thought that both I and my wife put into our decision to get married....(over 30 years ago and still going!)
We got married in our church, and had to goto a "pre-married" cl***, then a lot of consoling with the minister and his wife, before they would allow us to get married in the church with it's blessings.
And after we were married they asked us to attend a"Young Marrieds" cl*** so as to help us get off the right start, and learning what it was to be a 'wife" and a "husband".

So Julie, I also think that there is a big difference between my being able to carry my bride over the threshold of my house and being able to live with her and share her life as a good husband should, compared to some of the guys I worked with at the time who simply have invented great pick-up lines that they used to convince girls it would be ok to invite them into her bed .





Now as for Smith?????

Julie, according to what you know about Smith.....and what you know about his going after different women.....and what you know about his tactic of sending married men on far away missions, only to then start hitting on their wives.....etc, etc, etc,

Do you think Smith was able to tell the difference between being married to a "wife", compared to just convincing girls to allow him into their bed as if they were a mistress?

I am so glad you recognize a big difference between marriage and a mistress. So, with that in mind, can you explain to me the difference between your marriage an eternal marriage as I believe.

P.S. I am not going to address your derogatory comments toward Joseph Smith. To me it is nothing more than the equivalent of 200-year-old gossip. (Gossip being something that someone hears and then sensationalizes and adds to it to bring about their own sense of self-importance.)

[alanmolstad]

So Smith is in bed with one girl...and later when she gets up he asks her to go get her sister.

Was this treating her like a wife or like a mistress ?

[alanmolstad]

when Smith sent a husband way out of town on a "mission" , and when he was gone started sniffing around the guy's wife....that was treating that woman as a wife or as a mistress?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So Smith is in bed with one girl...and later when she gets up he asks her to go get her sister.

Was this treating her like a wife or like a mistress ?

You forget that polygamy is not just part of my past, but is found in the Bible as well. Would you ask these same type of questions regarding Jacob (Israel) regarding his polygamist wives? This is demeaning to my beliefs and reminds me of why I stopped posting here. *sigh*

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by theway

LOL... Still trying to get people to believe that nonsense when you googled up "sex + Joseph Smith" Alanmolstad???
Why not give the details and where it comes from so people can see just how ridiculous your "evidence" is.

I am saddened by the fact that people would give up the gospel of Jesus Christ and all the blessings ***ociated with it because they heard a very biased, narrow view of history. (This same thing happens with Jesus Christ as well as atheists give their biased, and often what they claim as their "scientific" view.) Like I said, it is like deciding never to fly in a jet again because of someone's biased historical view of the Wright brothers.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So Smith is in bed with one girl...and later when she gets up he asks her to go get her sister.

Was this treating her like a wife or like a mistress ?

and the answer is?




As I have talked about, the lady who was talking to my Bible cl*** looked at the same history of Smith's actions and she came to the conclusion that Smith was treating women like they were his mistress .

She came to believe the whole story of an angel telling him he had to start with the marrying other women and having sex with them or the angel would kill him, was looking more and more to her as just a pick-up line Smith developed that help him convince and seduce young girls.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

when Smith sent a husband way out of town on a "mission" , and when he was gone started sniffing around the guy's wife....that was treating that woman as a wife or as a mistress?

There is that one story,where Smith tried to seduce one guy's wife while the husband was out of town, and she turned him down flat...and she also warned Smith that he better drop it or she would tell her husband...

Smith begged her not to tell....(Im guessing he was afraid he would get shot)...


So the pattern seems to be that Smith would use his position in the church to get women into bed with him...
I will be posting a link soon that goes into detail on the different approaches Smith used against women

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

There is that one story,where Smith tried to seduce one guy's wife while the husband was out of town, and she turned him down flat...and she also warned Smith that he better drop it or she would tell her husband...

Smith begged her not to tell....(Im guessing he was afraid he would get shot)...


So the pattern seems to be that Smith would use his position in the church to get women into bed with him...
I will be posting a link soon that goes into detail on the different approaches Smith used against women

I quote:

"A second method Smith used to get females to say yes to his proposals was to send family males on a mission that might or did object to his advances.
For example, unlike his approach of obtaining parental permission of the Whitney's, Kimball's, and the Woodworth's, before asking for their young daughters hand in marriage, Smith directly approached young Lucy Walker only after sending her father, John Walker, on a mission.[57] He also sent Horace Whitney on a mission because he felt that Horace was too close to his sister Sarah Ann, and would oppose the marriage.[58] Smith married Marinda Nancy Johnson Hyde, a year before her husband Orson, an Apostle, returned from his mission.[59] He also approached Sarah Pratt while her husband Orson, an Apostle, was on a mission.[60]"

[alanmolstad]

I quote:

"The sexual history of Joseph Smith is rather extraordinary.
Sexual allegations made against him from 1827-1841 are extensive.
And from 1841-1843, he made proposals to at least thirty-three women who accepted his offer; plus a number of others who turned him down.
Of those who accepted, eleven were single girls, ages fourteen to nineteen, several of them his house maids; another eleven were single women over age nineteen; and eleven were married women.[102]

Perhaps the most concise statement of his sexual history is summarized by his longtime wife Emma Smith.
In a candid interview with former Apostle William McLellin on August 28, 1847 (which he later recorded), MeCellan said: "Mrs. Joseph Smith, the widow of the Prophet, told me in 1847 that she knew her husband - the Prophet practiced both adultery and polygamy."[103]"

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by theway

I wouldn't even say it rises to the level of a biased view of history.... Most of Alan's evidence comes from sources that even most AntiMormon are too embarr***ed to use; and even if they do, they'll leave a disclaimer that there probably isn't any truth to it.
I don't think that's Alan's problem though, Alan just seems to be addicted to sexual topics.

Yes, too true. I looked at one of his reference "sites" and there is nothing academic about them. Gossip of the worst kind.

But all of his posts do remind me of a scripture:

Luk 19:21-22
For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow. And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

This is from the parable of the pounds. The servant, instead of putting the blessing he had received to good use, instead choose to make a judgement of the master. In the end, he lost all.

As I stated before, I am truly saddened by those who make a biased judgement and choose to give up so many blessings. And in my experience, they often then believe the same type of arguments against Jesus Christ and turn to atheism. Such a sad outcome.

[alanmolstad]

The first messenger, that gave notice of Lucullus' coming was so far from pleasing Tigranes that, he had his head cut off for his pains; and no man dared to bring further information.
Without any intelligence at all, Tigranes sat while war was already blazing around him, giving ear only to those who flattered him"

hence our concept of "shooting the messenger" is born....

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The first messenger, that gave notice of Lucullus' coming was so far from pleasing Tigranes that, he had his head cut off for his pains; and no man dared to bring further information.
Without any intelligence at all, Tigranes sat while war was already blazing around him, giving ear only to those who flattered him"

hence our concept of "shooting the messenger" is born....

So, are you accusing Christ of shooting the messenger when he took away everything from the one who ignored the blessing he received and instead made a judgement against him who gave the blessing?

[alanmolstad]

Julie, I sure thought I made myself clear enough...

Its like......um...

Its like I may post links that talk about Smith's history of sexual conquests and right away some Mormons guests here start talking about me personally and start saying that like, "Oh you cant trust that source".etc.

But what is the one thing they dont do?.......they dont try to quote Mormon church official sources that contradicts the evidence.
Nope...that they dont do....LOL



so for example, I have posted a bunch of links that show us that Smith would send a husband out of town on a 'mission" and then when Smith knew the husband was out of the picture he would come sniffing around like a horny hound dog and try to get the guy's wife into bed with him.

If he did this?...then he is a sexual predator.
It's Case-Closed as far as Im concerned and the guy truly needed shooting.


If he did not do this then Im sure there are a ton of Mormon books and websites that prove the Smith never tried to bed a wife of someone he sent on a mission.

So we shall see what answer I get back to the charge that Smith used to do this?

Will the Mormon admit, "Yes, Alan, I guess you are correct and that Smith unfortunately did that very thing your links listed"

or, with the Mormon say, "No Alan, here is a Mormon official answer that proves 100% that Smith never tried anything with the wife of someone who was sent on a mission"




Or....will I get back just the typical 'ducking the issue" type answer of "Alan your question is disrespectful and Im not going to comment on gossip from such questionable sources"



Or will I have to turn the other cheek again to the same standard personal attacks made against me?....made by people that clearly dont like the message Im saying, but cant prove its wrong, so they just decide that the best thing to do is "Shoot the messengerr" and hope that makes it all better........