Why would anyone remain in the mormon church?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Can I proved that Adam didn't go see the newest Star Wars movie?

And the reason is I can only prove things that are actually written in the bible. ..

Does the bible say Adam ever ate from the tree of life? ...No.

Does the bible even hint that Adam ate of it?...No.

Can we say he ate based only on a lack of proof he didnt?...No.

If Adam brought physical death into the world--then it was not there until the Fall:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Who was the man which death came by?

[alanmolstad]

Im just pointing out that there is not squat for support for the idea that Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life......ever!

If he ever had eaten, then he would have had the ability to "Live Forever"

Tolive forever means you cant die....no matterwhat you cant die...

If Adam had eaten and then somehow God took away his life, then the Bible could NOT say that by eating you would "live forever"

If God took away his life after Adam had eaten, then the Bible lies when it says by eating Adam would live forever.


The moment we read that Adam could eat and live forever it proves 100% that he had not eaten yet.
Thats a fact!!!


So Adam never once ate of the Tree of Life.

And that fits nicely with the fact that God says Himself that if Adam were to eat he would live forever.
This is why God had to kick Adam out of the garden to keep him from eating.


So, Adam never ate from the Tree of Life, ...case-closed!

[alanmolstad]

inother words....

To live forever, is to have "eternal life"

If you are said to have eternal life, and then you somehow lose this?, it was not eternal!



The christian teaching is that via God's Grace we have "eternal life".
Our salvation is 100% ***ured.
My salvation cant be changed......its a done deal....the decision is already past.


I have p***ed from death, to life...

Nothing can be added to this, nor taken away.
My works do not add anything to this fact....nor do my sins take it away.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

If Adam brought physical death into the world--then it was not there until the Fall:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Who was the man which death came by?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im just pointing out that there is not squat for support for the idea that Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life......ever!

If he ever had eaten, then he would have had the ability to "Live Forever"

Tolive forever means you cant die....no matterwhat you cant die...

If Adam had eaten and then somehow God took away his life, then the Bible could NOT say that by eating you would "live forever"

I couldn't help but notice you did not answer the question:

If Adam brought physical death into the world--then it was not there until the Fall:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Who was the man which death came by?

[alanmolstad]

Stand by to have your mind ****n.....


Yes,we get p***ed to us all things from Adam,including our ability to die...this is true...

But, (stand by for this next part)
but, Adam did not change physically after he sinned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




WHAT?!


Yep,look it up...
Adam did not change physically...nothing bad happened to his body...he did not degenerate.


Lots of people think that something changed within Adam (like his DNA) when he sinned...that suddenly he "became mortal".....

But this idea is wrong!


"Wrong Alan? How can it be wrong,if that is what so many Christians and other religions believe?"

Well kids its wrong because the idea that Adam suddenly "became mortal" is not based on the text of the Bible.

The idea that after Adam sinned he changed and became mortal is an invented idea.




Want to prove this for yourself?
...good!
Just answer this one question.

" Why did Adam die?"


Did God kill Adam?
Does the Bible tell us that God killed Adam?

No the Bible does not say that God had to kill Adam at all..



So why did Adam die?....the answer is this...




Adam died ONLY because he did not eat of the tree of life.

Thats the answer.

That also is the ONLY answer found in the Bible.

All the other answers you hear listed in your church, (regardless of your religion) are false.
They are invented to make the story agree with some teaching that they also hold.

But if you stick to only what you can prove in the Bible, then the only reason the Bible lists as to why Adam,(and all his children to this very day) will die is that before Adam could get over to the Tree Of Life and eat and live forever, he got kicked out.


Its that simple.


So lets just look at the text and read what it says.

The Text tells us that if Adam would have eaten of the Tree Of Life he would live forever.

This means that at the time God kicked Adam out, Adam had not yet eaten.

This means that Adam was still in his "natural" condition.
Adam was still the way God had made him....and in order for Adam to live forever he needed to eat of the tree of life.....

So mankind was not created in a natural state with the natural ability to live forever.

Humans were not created with a body that would naturally live forever.
(That's going to shake up a few people I know, but this is the facts of the text)...

We humans were not created with bodies that would naturally last forever, and that is why God gave us the tree of Life, so we all could eat of it and all of us live forever.


This also is why the Bible tells us that all death came to us from Adam....Because of the sin and the fact that Adam got the boot we still share the mortal state that Adam was created within,and because Adam was not allowed to eat of the tree of life we share in the death that we get via Adam....

Had Adam not sinned, we would be able to be born and eat of the tree of life.

But because of the sin of Adam, death rules us.








(Because this true reading of Genesis is new to so many Christians and Mormons reading this,Im going to copy/paste this onto its own topic section of the forum so that it will be easy to find.)

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I couldn't help but notice you did not answer the question:

If Adam brought physical death into the world--then it was not there until the Fall:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Who was the man which death came by?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Yes,we get p***ed to us all things from Adam,including our ability to die...this is true...

Would there have been any need for Christ to come and provide the resurrection for mankind--if Adam had not sinned?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Would there have been any need for Christ to come and provide the resurrection for mankind--if Adam had not sinned?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Let me answer that fine question by just building on the points I have made already above:

As I have shown above, the first human did not "degenerate" physically after he sinned.
Rather than "becoming mortal" he "stayed the same" as he was created.

Adam was created with a normal human body that needed to eat of the Tree of Life to be able to live forever.


So the type of human body that Adam was created with, is the very same type of human body he would p*** on to the whole human race, and to you and I too.

So we share in our human bodies the same ability to die as Adam had when he was created out of the dust of Genesis.


But.....we also have a human body that once given the fruit of the Tree Of Life will live forever.


So yes, all human death is the result of Adam's sin, this is very clear in the bible.
But lets not forget that we also share Adam's ability to live forever if we get a chance to eat of the Tree Of Life too!


Had Adam not sinned, he was given clear ability and the chance to eat of the tree of Life and live forever.

The tree of life was not banned by God before the sin of Adam....it was always there in the garden and was free for Adam to eat of at any time.



(This is he reason God kicked him out of the garden)




So had Adam not sinned, then all humans would have current ability to stretch forth their hands and eat of the tree of Life and live forever...

But thats not how it worked out.....clearly.

And so that is why Christ had to come and die so as to put things right again.
But had Adam not sinned,then all of us would lead vastly different lives as we would be able to eat of the tree of Life right now and live forever.

So the reason we die now is not because the human body of Adam changed, rather the answer is that after he sinned Adam was kept from the chance to eat of the Tree of Life and live forever...


But we do see in the Book Of Revelation, that the Tree Of Life is once again offered to mankind to eat from and live forever.








Now as for the other question some may have after reading all this ,
"Is the Tree Of Life a real tree, or is it a symbol of something else?"

My answer is that I am right now only dealing with "WHAT" the Bible says...

I will leave it to others and another time to talk about what it all means.....

[alanmolstad]

Now I know that reading what I'm posting here might cause both some Christians and many Mormons to start to try to disagree with me.

I get that...

This is because both some Christians and most Mormons have a few ideas about Genesis that are clearly not supported by the Text in Genesis.

I have battled long and hard against the Young Earth Creationism views held by many within the Christian church.
As well as I have battled hard against all the Mormon teachings of a preexistence.

Both the Christian view of YEC and the Mormon teaching of a preexistence are in error in my view and need to be totally abandoned in favor of the Truth that actually is taught in God's word.


So before the Mormon reading this has the knee-**** reaction and starts quoting me Mormon books about the preexistence, and before my Christian brother or sister starts quoting me books my Ken Ham about the Flintstones, I would simply ask everyone to calm down, open their Bible, and read what is written there and compare with Im saying to what is found in the Text...


That's what they did with Paul's teachings, and so that is all I ask you do with mine too.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Would there have been any need for Christ to come and provide the resurrection for mankind--if Adam had not sinned?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Let me answer that fine question by just building on the points I have made already above:

As I have shown above, the first human did not "degenerate" physically after he sinned.

Since Adam grew old and died after the Fall--and returned to the dust--I suppose there was a degeneration.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Since Adam grew old and died after the Fall--and returned to the dust--I suppose there was a degeneration.

Well.....in a way...

IguessI have to make this a bit more clearwith my wording...

When I say that Adam did not"degenerate " after he sinned...Im talking about a change.
Im saying that the body of Adam before he sinned was the very same body after...


I dont know how else to put this I guess?...LOL

That the need Adam's body had to eat of the tree of life that he had after he sinned was the same need he had to eat before he sinned...

Nothing changed...


God did not change Adam after he sinned.

The human body we have is the same type Adam had when created.

God did not change Adam's body after the sin...


In other words...Adam was going to die.
Adam was created with a normal human body that would get old, get sick, and would die.

The frailness of Adam's human body was the reason God also planted the tree Of Life and gave it to Adam to eat from and live forever.

So the body of Adam was just like the mortal bodies of any other creature God made.
We are apart of the earth...
God created a human body out of the same stuff as are the birds, the fish, the great apes....we all are mortal as created.


So the fact that Adam grew old and later died is not because God changed him into a mortal, rather its because Adam was created as a normal mortal creature from the beginning!!!

And then Adam never got a chance to eat of the tree of Life due to his sin, and so because of that sin and the fact that adam never ate, we still share in the mortal human body that Adam had when he was created.



questions?

[alanmolstad]

Im still struggeling to find the right wordstouse that dont cause you to messup what Im saying...





I mean to say, that God created Adam with a body that would age, get sick, and die.

So this means that when Adam sinned,God did not have to do anything to Adam's body to make it age, get sick and die.

[alanmolstad]

We know the created body of Adam was designed to die like a normal creature because God gave Adam the tree Of Life.

Its the tree of life that was the only means Adam had to live forever without ever death.

If the Body of Adam would have been created with a natural ability to live forever,then the tree of Lifeis pointless....

But the tree of Life is very important in the Bible...it is how Adam could have lived forever.

[alanmolstad]

any questions?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Well.....in a way...

IguessI have to make this a bit more clearwith my wording...

When I say that Adam did not"degenerate " after he sinned...Im talking about a change.

What is your evidence there was not a change in Adam's body?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

What is your evidence death was not introduced in the Fall? Where do we find death in pre-Fall scripture?

Alan--if God had pronounced physical death upon Adam prior to the Fall--then death did not come by man--but by God.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is your evidence there was not a change in Adam's body?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

.

Thank you for asking this question...I am very happy to see some interest in this topic!

Its a like this:

I will now ask and answer 2 questions that will show how you question is answered right in the text.

QUESTION #1 - what is the result of eating from the Tree Of Life?....
ANSWER: to live forever.

QUESTION #2 - What happens if you do not eat from the Tree Of Life?
ANSWER : you die.



So now I hope that this point is clear to you.
If you have more doubts about these two questions and their answer, just let me know.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Well.....in a way...

IguessI have to make this a bit more clearwith my wording...

When I say that Adam did not"degenerate " after he sinned...Im talking about a change.

What is your evidence there was not a change in Adam's body?

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

What is your evidence death was not introduced in the Fall? Where do we find death in pre-Fall scripture?

Alan--if God had pronounced physical death upon Adam prior to the Fall--then death did not come by man--but by God.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Thank you for asking this question...I am very happy to see some interest in this topic!

Its a like this:

I will now ask and answer 2 questions that will show how you question is answered right in the text.

QUESTION #1 - what is the result of eating from the Tree Of Life?....
ANSWER: to live forever.

QUESTION #2 - What happens if you do not eat from the Tree Of Life?
ANSWER : you die.

So now I hope that this point is clear to you.

If you have more doubts about these two questions and their answer, just let me know.

Thanks, Alan.

The point clear to me is this one:

If God had pronounced physical death upon Adam prior to the Fall--then death did not come by man--but by God.

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Hi Alan, interesting topic but I must disagree with your premise. Humans die from sickness and disease, Adam was not subject to these before sin
entered the world.......

The answer the Bible has to that is "Tree Of Life"


The tree of Life is how we know for 100% that Adam was created as a typical mortal like we are too.

The tree Of Life is God's idea.
God planted the tree Of Life near Adam in the garden, and we know from the text that the result of any person eating from the tree of life is what?


The result of eating from the tree of Life is what?________

The answer is that the result you get when you eat of the Tree of Life is that you "live forever"!

This is why God was forced to kick Adam out of the garden.
god knew that if Adam were to ever eat of the tree of Life that the result would be that Adam would "live forever" and God did not want Adam to live forever.

So God kept Adam away from the tree of life so that man cant live in a state of sin forever.

This points us to the fact that the Bible is saying that Adam was created as a typical normal mortal creature.

Adam was created as a normal mortal, but with eating of the Tree of Life this same normal mortal creature would be able to live forever!

Humans are designed by their Creator to be able to eat and live forever!

We are also designed to "need" to eat to be able to live forever...
The "needed" design element is that god created us as mortals.


This is what the Bible says...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is your evidence there was not a change in Adam's body?

.

The tree Of Life.

Eating of the tree of life changes you.

Not eating and you remain as you were.





Adam did not have eternal life and then lost it, because if you can lose "eternal" life you never had it in the first place!......

Hence the word "eternal"





If you can live "forever"and then later die, you can not say that you ever lived "forever"

God says to eat is to live forever.
This means Adam had never eaten ...ever...


To not eat means you remain unchanged.

Adam did not eat.
Adam remained unchanged.

The point of the Tree in the first place is to chage the man and allow him to live forever.
So Adam was designed to eat and change and live forever....

Adam would change and have eternal life if he ate.
But if Adam did not eat, he would remain unchanged....

and mortal.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The tree Of Life.

Eating of the tree of life changes you.

Not eating and you remain as you were.

Alan--thanks for your comments. My question to you now is this:

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Alan--if God had pronounced physical death upon Adam prior to the Fall--then death did not come by man--but by God. Right?

[alanmolstad]

What was the reason that God planted the Tree Of Life in the Garden?


Thats the answer to your question about where is death from...


Why did God plant the tree in the garden?
What would happen to Adam if he were to eat of the Tree of life?
If Adam had eaten of the tree of Life, would it have changed him?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What was the reason that God planted the Tree Of Life in the Garden?

Thats the answer to your question about where is death from...

Death is from the Tree of Life?

Why did God plant the tree in the garden?
What would happen to Adam if he were to eat of the Tree of life?
If Adam had eaten of the tree of Life, would it have changed him?

The specific answers to those questions are not found in the scriptures.

But this is:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Alan--if God had pronounced physical death upon Adam prior to the Fall--then death did not come by man--but by God. Right?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The specific answers to those questions are not found in the scriptures.

Well just think about it for a second and I'm sure you get it...

Remember its the "Tree Of Life"!

It can only do one thing....



What can it do?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Well just think about it for a second and I'm sure you get it...

Remember its the "Tree Of Life"! It can only do one thing....

What can it do?

I'm not sure the Tree of Life is limited to "only one thing", as the scriptures do not explain the total function of the Tree of Life.

I thought our conversation centered on whether Adam was immortal or mortal in the garden, and whether partaking of the fruit of the tree of good and evil brought physical death into the world for mankind.

That is what I would like to focus on--and speculation about the Tree of Life might not get us there.

I would like to pursue another avenue of thought:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Alan--if God had pronounced physical death upon Adam prior to the Fall--then death did not come by man--but by God. Right?

[alanmolstad]

Im only asking what can we read that the tree Of life can do?....what is the one thing in the Genesis story of the fall that eating from the tree does for a person?

[alanmolstad]

The most important key thing we find in the study of the Book of Genesis about the condition of Adam when he was first created is found in the Tree of Life.

The Tree of life is why Adam died.

The tree of life is why all of the children of Adam die.

The Tree of Life is why we die too...



The tree of life only has one function in the Genesis story, it has only one ***.

The tree of *** offers eternal life.
Thats it.
Thats all it does in the story.
You eat of it and you live forever.
Thats what it does in the story.


you don't eat of it, you die.

Adam did not eat of it in the story.
Adam died.

It's that simple.




So you want to know why Adam died?.....look at what happens to the Tree of Life that was planted in the garden to make sure humans never died.
Remember, thats the reason we read in the text for God planting the tree so close to the man....
It was there to make sure that men never died.