Why would anyone remain in the mormon church?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I don't see any answer there. It would not be hard to post that specific name from your post--would it?

I mean--if you don't mind posting a long, belabored post--then you shouldn't mind giving us a quick name--should you?

It boils down to Adam--or God--so it can't require more than four letters, at the most.

Com'on Alan--you can do it.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...367#post170367

( see post number #36 )

Awww, com'on Alan--you can do it.

You just spent way more time and characters than just telling us who it might be--Adam--or God.

[alanmolstad]

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...367#post170367

( see post number #36 )

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...367#post170367

( see post number #36 )

Alan--we are still awaiting a name for 1Cor15:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Could you identify who the "man" is there which death came by?

It's either Adam or God--which one?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Alan--we are still awaiting........?

See -
http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...522#post170522

Post number # 100

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

See -
http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...522#post170522

Post number # 100

Thanks for trying, Alan.

Well, there we have it, folks. I call it diversion, but you decide why Alan can't give us a direct answer:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Could you identify who the "man" is there which death came by?

It's either Adam or God--which one?

I will provide a direct answer--it's Adam who is identified as the man whom physical death came by, in 1Cor15:21.

And if that is true--then God did not introduce physical death into the Garden, from the onset--physical death came through Adam's disobedience in the Garden.

That's lends to the possibility Adam was immortal until he partook of the fruit.

[Christian]

erunderr posted:

Originally Posted by Christian View Post
IF they ever read their Bibles?

We remain in the Church of Jesus Christ because we read our Bibles.

Why would anyone remain in the mormon religion because they read a book they CAN'T UNDERSTAND?

1 Cor 2:14-15
14 But the natural man (If you follow the 'jesus' of the mormon religion, you are NOT saved by the REAL Jesus on the Bible) does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

NONE of the mormon-specific junk exists in the Bible or any first century writing. . .joseph smith made it all up.

False. Baptism for the dead is one.

You CANNOT NAME ONE SINGLE CHRISTIAN IN THE WHOLE BIBLE who ever 'baptized' anyone for the dead. UNBELIEVERS did it, but they (like the mormons) never thought it out. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE RESURRECTION, how can you say you believe in THE RESURRECTION?

Paul asked UNBELIEVERS who were baptizing for the dead, that question. Why did those UNBELIEVERS baptize for their dead if the dead are not raised at all?

The p***age:

1 Cor 15:29
29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
NKJV


NOTICE the personal pronouns. Does Paul say that the CHRISTIANS eve did it? No he does not. Does Paul ever say HE did it? No he does not.

Apparently YOU cannot read any better than joey smith could.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

And so was Christ here--that does not mean they were mortals:

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

So you think adam and eve were NOT appointed to die before the judgement?
You think God LIED when He had the writer of the Hebrews write:

Heb 9:26-28
of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
NK

[alanmolstad]

the tree of life!!!!!



The tree of life was not there to take of space...

The tree of life only has one ***
It offers eternal life to mortals who eat of it....thats what it does...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

So you think adam and eve were NOT appointed to die before the judgement?

If physical death came through man(Adam)--then obviously--physical death was not part of the original creation:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

You think God LIED when He had the writer of the Hebrews write:

Heb 9:26-28
of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.
NK

Well--no. But can you show where Adam died more than once, as to the physical death?

That does not address when physical death was introduced.

[alanmolstad]

The tree of life was not there to take of space...

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The tree of life was not there to take of space...

The tree of life was not where?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The tree of life was not where?

The Tree of Life (TOL) brings eternal life to mortals who eat from it.

This is its *** in the Genesis story.

and we can thereby understand that this is why God planted it into the garden....

To bring eternal life to Adam...

So what this means is that God created Adam as a mortal who was in need of eating of the TOL to live forever.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The tree of life was not there to take of space...

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post The tree of life was not where?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

The Tree of Life (TOL) brings eternal life to mortals who eat from it.

This is its *** in the Genesis story.

and we can thereby understand that this is why God planted it into the garden....

To bring eternal life to Adam...

So what this means is that God created Adam as a mortal who was in need of eating of the TOL to live forever.

Again--the tree of life was not where?

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The tree of life was not there to take of space...

Where do we find any reference to God creating Adam mortal, or that he had to eat of the tree of life to live forever--before he partook of the fruit?

[alanmolstad]

the moment God planted the tree in the garden, you know that man was created mortal...

The result of a mortal eating the tree of life is to have everlasting life...thats what it does to mortals.

The reason the tree was planted in the garden was to be food for the man....

Only the tree of Knowledge was to not be food...so the tree of life was 100% food for the man...


This is why we can know that man was created mortal and that eating give us eternal life..



So if someone were to ask me, "If Adam were to not have sinned, would he then live forever?..my answer would be that "Yes, Adam would have lived forever had he not sinned, because God had planted the tree Of Life for that reason.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

the moment God planted the tree in the garden, you know that man was created mortal...

That does not touch upon my question.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post The tree of life was not there to take of space...

Again--the tree of life was not where?[/quote]

The result of a mortal eating the tree of life is to have everlasting life...thats what it does to mortals.

Where do we find immortals cannot eat of the tree of life?

Either way--Adam and Eve were still immortals in the Garden, and Adam still introduced death into the world:

1 Corinthians 15:21---King James Version (KJV)
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

Why would anyone remain in the mormon religion because they read a book they CAN'T UNDERSTAND?

Maybe because they believe it. Besides, look at all the people who remain in the protestant religion because they read a book they CAN'T UNDERSTAND.

You CANNOT NAME ONE SINGLE CHRISTIAN IN THE WHOLE BIBLE who ever 'baptized' anyone for the dead.

And you CANNOT NAME ONE SINGLE UNBELIEVER IN THE WHOLE BIBLE who ever 'baptized' anyone for the dead. So what?

Does Paul say that the CHRISTIANS eve did it? No he does not. Does Paul ever say HE did it? No he does not.

Does Paul say that the UNBELIEVERS ever did it? No, he does not.

Apparently YOU cannot read any better than joey smith could.

Apparently joey smith can read better than YOU.

[Christian]

erunder posted:

Originally Posted by Christian[IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]Why would anyone remain in the mormon religion because they read a book they CAN'T UNDERSTAND?

Maybe because they believe it. Besides, look at all the people who remain in the protestant religion because they read a book they CAN'T UNDERSTAND.

So you are saying that there are UNBELIEVERS in both groups? I agree, there are. But in the mormon group, even those who BELIEVE in the mormon religion do not understand the Bible.

You CANNOT NAME ONE SINGLE CHRISTIAN IN THE WHOLE BIBLE who ever 'baptized' anyone for the dead.

And you CANNOT NAME ONE SINGLE UNBELIEVER IN THE WHOLE BIBLE who ever 'baptized' anyone for the dead. So what?

Does Paul say that the CHRISTIANS eve did it? No he does not. Does Paul ever say HE did it? No he does not.

Does Paul say that the UNBELIEVERS ever did it? No, he does not.

SURE He does.

1 Cor 15:29-30
29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
NKJV


Apparently joey smith can read better than YOU.

​Looks like he cannot. The people Paul was speaking to were UNBELIEVERS (they did not believe Jesus or anyone else was raised from the dead.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

The people Paul was speaking to were UNBELIEVERS (they did not believe Jesus or anyone else was raised from the dead.[/COLOR]

What is your evidence of that?

1 Corinthians 1:1-2---King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

The people Paul was speaking to were UNBELIEVERS (they did not believe Jesus or anyone else was raised from the dead.[/COLOR]

What is your evidence of that?

1 Corinthians 1:1-2---King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

[Erundur]

Originally Posted by Christian

SURE He does.

1 Cor 15:29-30
29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
NKJV

Where? The verse you cited doesn't say anything about UNBELIEVERS.

[Berean]

Christian is correct. Paul asked why do "they" baptize for the dead. He didn't say "we."

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Erundur

Originally Posted by Christian View Post
SURE He does.

1 Cor 15:29-30
29 Otherwise, what will they do who are baptized for the dead, if the dead do not rise at all? Why then are they baptized for the dead?
NKJV

Where? The verse you cited doesn't say anything about UNBELIEVERS.

IF you bothered READING THE TEXT including the slightest amount BEFORE my quote to see what the CONTEXT of Paul's statement WAS ABOUT, Paul is addressing folks who do NOT BELIEVE IN THE RESURRECTION. . .UNBELIEVERS, since Jesus WAS resurrected by that time.

[alanmolstad]

Mormonism is not really my bag...

But I also see you guys have listed a Bible verse in your conversation, and its a verse I have not really had come up before now before..

So I will have a look at 1 Cor 15:29-30 and tell you my understanding of its teachings...

[alanmolstad]

Ok,,,,Im back after spending a long time reading and dealing with the text at and around 1 Cor 15:29-30.

When read in full-context, you do see that the dead are being baptized by non-Christians.

Paul is just using them as part of his defense of the idea of the resurrection.

I have no idea what religion is into the concept of "Baptizing for the dead' but Paul is very clear they are not actually connected to the Christian church.

It is very clear in how Paul is dealing with the "they" who do not believe in the resurrection, and the "we" who do believe.

The context clearly teaches that the "they" are non-Christians...case-closed!

[Berean]

Originally Posted by Christian

IF they ever read their Bibles? NONE of the mormon-specific junk exists in the Bible or any first century writing. . .joseph smith made it all up. Upon reading the Bible ANYONE seeking God would notice that.

Good point. Actually I personally believe he plagiarized Spalding.

The Book of Mormon is silent on the peculiar doctrines that separate Mormonism from Christianity, including:

• Aaronic priesthood
• Baptisms for the dead
• Celestial marriage
• Church organization
• Exaltation
• Polytheism
• Three heavens

Can any Mormon explain why this is?

If you just follow the teachings found in the Book of Mormon, see below, you're not too far removed from the Christian tenets. As Apologette pointed out in another thread, Spalding was a Christian and also believed the following;

• One God manifest in Three Persons;
• Father, Son and Holy Spirit;
• God is Spirit;
• Faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation,
• No preexistence for man;
• Salvation without baptism;
• Heaven or hell;
• Polygamy condemned; etc.

These teachings are all found in that same "most correct book on the earth" which the Mormon Missionaries who show up at my door want me to read and pray on to know if it's true. Why should I waste my time if Mormons don't follow any of it's teachings? I already have the Bible and it's a slam dunk that it's true.