You Know You Are Gaining Ground When the Mormons Call you Names:

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I think if you check you will notice that I did deal with all that verse...
The answer I gave deals with the full context that comes in the next part that you don't seem to want to quote for some reason???


The fullest context of this part of the Bible starts at Psalm 82:1
Here we read that God is at work in the leadership that men have over each other.

In Psalm 82:2 we see that the people in charge that are being talked to have sinned and have been doing evil things like juding people in a wrong way .

Next at Psalm 82:3 we read what is the comand that is now given to these evil judges....they are to do good from now on...

again at Psalm 82:4 we see more encouragements as to how the evil judges are to now change and act in.

>......and then things swirch gears a bit and we see what the Lord actually thinks of these evil judges that are found on this earth,,,,see how this comes out at Psalm 82:5 ""The 'gods' know nothing, they understand nothing. They walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are shaken."
In this verse we see the Lord address the so-called "gods" that are the rulers over people, and he tells them and us that they are totally ignorant.

at Psalm 82:6 the Lord talks about the great-sounding ***le the rulers have...and how their important ***les make it seem to them that they must be very important...

then the Lord lowers the boom in the next verse on them-
"But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler."

You can just feel in that verse the open Sarcasm that the Lord has to the rules with their important ***les that mean nothing at all.




And that my friends, that is what this section of the bible is teaching ....







This is not actually that hard of section of the Bible to deal with.
The only trick is to re,member to always look at a verse in the context it falls in....and to also never just try to jump into the middle of something and take a wordor two out of their context.

That is what the CULTs do...
The CULTs always love to just forget the fullest context of a verse.
CULTs love to just grab a word or two, then jump to another part of the Bible to snag a word or two from there, and then act like they are building a teaching.

They are not.



thus as we have seen now...the verses starting at 82:1 do not teach that the men were actually gods, (Big G, little g, it does not matter...LOL) rather as seenj in the full context this part of the Bible is talking about the Lord warning the rulers of this earth to stop doing evil, and to start doing good...and God also reminds the rulers that regardless of their ***les and the power they have over people , they are only men, and will one day die and face a eternal judge that is not impressed with their *** ***les....

I've looked at this in context. I get that you believe that these "gods" are evil judges as explained in context. What you do not explain is why God calls these "evil judges" CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH. You keep skipping this line. Can you explain to me why God does this? Especially in light that they are evil?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Jesus is addressing something that actually appears later in the Book of Revelation...

"The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,


to cast your crown before another person is to totally give up your right to rule in place of another taking your place...
You give up being a ruler,,,,


This is my aim to do one day too!



(I actually remember Dr Walter Martin talking on his radio show about the whole topic and stuff....I will see if I can find a recording of him teaching on what Heaven will be like)

Now we have 24 elders instead of 12? Where did the other 12 come from?

Your response leads to more questions than answers:

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.

Now we have 24 with "crowns"--usually a sign of being a ruler.

And these 24 rulers give their crowns to God--but why does Christ tell them that they will receive crowns and judge themselves? What is their role in the next life?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Now as we look to this story in Mat 19 what we find is that in the context what we are dealing with all starts out in the story of the rich guy who comes up to Jesus and asks about what he can "do" to enter into the kingdom....

In their exchange we find out later that Jesus is warning the guys that you cant go into the Kingdom like you are seeking a higher position....you cant try to "earn' a higher ranking....you cant think that "Oh one day in Heaven I will be great, rewarded, with a high position"

This does cause the 12 to ask Jesus about, "Who then can be saved?"...and that is a good question to ask because it shows just how pointless all works are in seking the Kingdom.
And Jesus responds ....

and his response in fullness is in the next chapter where he talks about the field hands hired to work the harvest.
The ones at the start worked for an agreed wage, and had that as their inspiration...

As the story goes on what Jesus is teaching is that the men sent into the field with no agreement with the land owner at all, come out the best and are the most blessed!


This is how we are to then understand the context of the "rule over the 12 tribes" concept....

In this light, the way to understand the whole idea about the afterlife from the point of view of a Christian like myself, is to understand that we dont have any idea what is to come....
I cant even dream-up an idea of what is to come for myself as the lord returns and I rise from the grave.

But even if I dont understand, I yet must go forward in my Christian walk and not concern myself with the afterlife at all...

I dont plan on being anything...
I dont plan of earning some "thing" be it a position or a ranking in the future Kingdom.
I dont spend any time thinking abut that stuff at all, for Jesus has told a story where the field workers that entered into the work with no agreement for reward were truly the most blessed at the end...



This is why when Jesus answers his men and tells them they will rule one day, he then tacks-on the warning, "Many who would be first will be last"

This warning about us spending time now thinking about our 'rewards in heaven" is given the example in the book of Revelation, where the ones who were given a crown toss their crown before the feet of the Lord.

THAT......that story fits with what Jesus is talking about here.
It's really the same concept,:, that being that while its very natural to ask, "Whats in it for me?" and at first Jesus does address this very human-nature driven question, and informs us that the Lord will bless us truly....YET, the important thing that Jesus is teaching us here is that we Christians are not to dwell on this matter.

We are to walk our christian walk with no thought at all of rewards, and of positions in the future Kingdom.

We are to be like the field hands who were rushed into the field to work the harvest with no agreement with the land owner at all !!!!

Our example is to be like such workers!

They who worked the harvest with no thought of reward, nor any agreement for future rewards.


They worked the harvest only because they were asked to help.

Oh, so in other words, when Christ tells 12 this, what their role will be in the next life--you think they should just discard it or ignore it? Do you think Jesus was NOT telling them the truth or was teaching them something that really meant nothing?

And you did not address the parable of the talents in which those who are faithful will be "ruler" over many things? Do you also think that Christ was just blabbering about something of no consequence?

For someone who spends so much time belittling another's religion because of the consequence you believe they will face in the next life for not reading the Bible "correctly", you sure do easily state that you have no idea what Christ teaches about what the consequences are for those who do follow him.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I've looked at this in context. I get that you believe that these "gods" are evil judges as explained in context. What you do not explain is why God calls these "evil judges" CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH. You keep skipping this line. Can you explain to me why God does this? Especially in light that they are evil?

yes again, as I said before, it is understood in the context of the next verse that shows us that they were merely normal men who would die and face a real eternal judge...

Thus is why the Lord tells us that these so-called 'gods' know nothing!.....they were without a clue as to the real situation and the real judgement against them that was falling due to their evil actions....


What I now remember is that Walter Martin talked about this very same topic in his debate on Mormonism with Mr Ed Decker...

I will try to find the place on the YouTube recording so you can hear the answer Walter gave.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

For someone who spends so much time belittling another's religion because of the consequence you believe they will face in the next life for not reading the Bible "correctly", you sure do easily state that you have no idea what Christ teaches about what the consequences are for those who do follow him.

so this is about me now?

It time to get personal?

time to get snotty with me?





Let me know when you have a question that is about the Bible...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

What is their role in the next life?

In the Rev verse they serve now as an example....

They are an example for us to look at and to learn from.

We are to learn from the things that are said to do...
What we see them do is cast their crowns before the feet of the Lord...

This is a way of saying that you give up your crown,,,you offer the other person the crown,,,they rule in your place and you become as no one special at all...


This is our example....

We are to follow the path of "self-denial"...

We are to become the servant....for the Lord is not among the ones who want to rule,
But he is among the ones who only serve.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes again, as I said before, it is understood in the context of the next verse that shows us that they were merely normal men who would die and face a real eternal judge...

Thus is why the Lord tells us that these so-called 'gods' know nothing!.....they were without a clue as to the real situation and the real judgement against them that was falling due to their evil actions....


What I now remember is that Walter Martin talked about this very same topic in his debate on Mormonism with Mr Ed Decker...

I will try to find the place on the YouTube recording so you can hear the answer Walter gave.

Once again---you have stated nothing in your answer about the line "and children of the Most High."

Why do you need to refer to Walter Martin? Must you turn to him to understand what "and children of the Most High" means in context of this verse?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

In the Rev verse they serve now as an example....

They are an example for us to look at and to learn from.

We are to learn from the things that are said to do...
What we see them do is cast their crowns before the feet of the Lord...

This is a way of saying that you give up your crown,,,you offer the other person the crown,,,they rule in your place and you become as no one special at all...


This is our example....

We are to follow the path of "self-denial"...

We are to become the servant....for the Lord is not among the ones who want to rule,
But he is among the ones who only serve.

Okay, so they will give up their crowns. Why then does Jesus tell them that they will " ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." I get that they will submit to Christ, but why does he tell them this? And if we likewise follow a path of "self denial", does this apply to us as well?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Why do you need to refer to Walter Martin? Must you turn to him to understand what "and children of the Most High" means in context of this verse?

ummm...you may have missed the name of this forum?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

........" I get that they will submit to Christ, but why does he tell them this?

Just think of the context...and the mindset of the guys asking Jesus about the future Kingdom.

On the one hand, all they really wanted to know was , "When will you kick out the Romans?"
That really was behind many of the questions people would ask about the future Kingdom, for they were looking forward to a type of super King David who would raise an army and drive out the unbelievers who now controlled their lives.

and , I would argue that there is no real sin here in asking Jesus about such things...as it must have been hard to live under the Roman Army boot.

And so Jesus does respond that they who have left all to follow him will be blessed and talks about sitting in judgement over the Jews.
But right after this Jesus tacks-on this warning that many who would be first would be last....
This comment was aimed right back at the 12.....the same 12 who just a moment ago were told they would rule?????,

now the very same guys are told they might be last in the Kingdom?...yes, its true!

Then to help us truly understand what Jesus was really teaching, we have this story of the workers who were hired for "X" amount of money to work in the field,,,,and then some other guys in the same story who were asked to come help just for a short time with the harvest.....
Then at the ending of the story we see Jesus make his real point ....this is his real point when he talked about the 12 ruling the tribes, as well as the warning about being last in the Kingdom...
The point Jesus makes is this....that the workers in his story that worked without any agreement for later reward with the land owner, were the very same ones most blessed by him later!!!!



That is to be our example!


That is the true meaning to the kings in the Book Of Rev who cast their crowns away....


Such example show us how to deal with our thoughts on our future in the Kingdom.


We are to work now without regard to reward...
We are to consider even the suggestion of being paid-back later as a pointless distraction....useless to think about....and can only cause us to be side-tracked.



you also have to remember that the 12 looked at the idea of a "high position"in the Kingdom a lot differently that Jesus taught about.

I remember that the 12 were always bickering over who would be greatest of them in the future Kingdom?....
Im sure that likely came after the words Jesus said about them each ruling over the 12 tribes of the Jews.
This must have caused the 12 to start to dream of being the guy in charge...the guy who would get to decide on important matters....thats what a "crown" means to people.

But its not what it means to Christ.....

Even the term "crown" is used by people to be talking mostly about ruling, money, and getting nice things and bossing people around....thats how people mostly think is the correct context of the word "crown"


But that is not what a Christian means by the word as connected to the Kingdom.


The crown that is ours in Christ, is not like the earthly crown......

Its not fancy...

its not a sign of the world's understanding of power and authority.


What is it?


The crown that is ours in Christ is in the likeness of the Crown of Christ.....its made of thorns.

[alanmolstad]

building on this idea of a "crown"...

Once Jesus wanted to give a better answer to the idea as to who would be the greatest in the future Kingdom?....
Jesus called a small child to come over to the middle of them...

Then Jesus tells them who is the greatest in the kingdom....so here is your answer, here is the understanding of the crowns in Rev and the high positions offered the 12 over the tribes of Jews....here is the answer Christ gave us all ..."Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.



It's like Jesus is saying to them "You want to know who gets the crowns?...you want to know who gets to have power and authority in the Kingdom?...you want to see the types that are sitting on the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes?...well here you go!" (points to the little kid)



There is no greater desire for us in God's heart, that we learn to deny ourselves, to place others before ourselves....to make ourselves the servant of others...

The Christian's crown is a crown of thorns..
the symbol of a suffering servant of others,

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Why do you need to refer to Walter Martin?

Im glad you asked about referring to Martin on this issue.

It took me a while to track down what Walter taught on this verse, but I searched and searched, and..... I found it!!!!

here is the link to the recording -
https://www.blueletterbible.org/audi...ce_of_the_Gods

at that website you will find two different places to click on the "STREAM"....click on the upper one marked "The Key to Mormon Theology: Romance of the Gods"


Walter talks about the verse in question at the 40:20 point of the recording...





Enjoy!

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

ummm...you may have missed the name of this forum?

I didn't realize you saw Walter Martin as a prophet to be looked to for understanding scripture.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Just think of the context...and the mindset of the guys asking Jesus about the future Kingdom.

On the one hand, all they really wanted to know was , "When will you kick out the Romans?"
That really was behind many of the questions people would ask about the future Kingdom, for they were looking forward to a type of super King David who would raise an army and drive out the unbelievers who now controlled their lives.

and , I would argue that there is no real sin here in asking Jesus about such things...as it must have been hard to live under the Roman Army boot.

And so Jesus does respond that they who have left all to follow him will be blessed and talks about sitting in judgement over the Jews.
But right after this Jesus tacks-on this warning that many who would be first would be last....
This comment was aimed right back at the 12.....the same 12 who just a moment ago were told they would rule?????,

now the very same guys are told they might be last in the Kingdom?...yes, its true!

Then to help us truly understand what Jesus was really teaching, we have this story of the workers who were hired for "X" amount of money to work in the field,,,,and then some other guys in the same story who were asked to come help just for a short time with the harvest.....
Then at the ending of the story we see Jesus make his real point ....this is his real point when he talked about the 12 ruling the tribes, as well as the warning about being last in the Kingdom...
The point Jesus makes is this....that the workers in his story that worked without any agreement for later reward with the land owner, were the very same ones most blessed by him later!!!!



That is to be our example!


That is the true meaning to the kings in the Book Of Rev who cast their crowns away....


Such example show us how to deal with our thoughts on our future in the Kingdom.


We are to work now without regard to reward...
We are to consider even the suggestion of being paid-back later as a pointless distraction....useless to think about....and can only cause us to be side-tracked.



you also have to remember that the 12 looked at the idea of a "high position"in the Kingdom a lot differently that Jesus taught about.

I remember that the 12 were always bickering over who would be greatest of them in the future Kingdom?....
Im sure that likely came after the words Jesus said about them each ruling over the 12 tribes of the Jews.
This must have caused the 12 to start to dream of being the guy in charge...the guy who would get to decide on important matters....thats what a "crown" means to people.

But its not what it means to Christ.....

Even the term "crown" is used by people to be talking mostly about ruling, money, and getting nice things and bossing people around....thats how people mostly think is the correct context of the word "crown"


But that is not what a Christian means by the word as connected to the Kingdom.


The crown that is ours in Christ, is not like the earthly crown......

Its not fancy...

its not a sign of the world's understanding of power and authority.


What is it?


The crown that is ours in Christ is in the likeness of the Crown of Christ.....its made of thorns.

All of this and you still do not explain WHY Christ told them that they will sit on 12 thrones and judge the tribes of Israel. You spent a lot of time telling us how they should NOT be thinking about this, how this is NOT how it works, but you do not explain WHY Christ would tell them this.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

building on this idea of a "crown"...

Once Jesus wanted to give a better answer to the idea as to who would be the greatest in the future Kingdom?....
Jesus called a small child to come over to the middle of them...

Then Jesus tells them who is the greatest in the kingdom....so here is your answer, here is the understanding of the crowns in Rev and the high positions offered the 12 over the tribes of Jews....here is the answer Christ gave us all ..."Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.



It's like Jesus is saying to them "You want to know who gets the crowns?...you want to know who gets to have power and authority in the Kingdom?...you want to see the types that are sitting on the 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes?...well here you go!" (points to the little kid)



There is no greater desire for us in God's heart, that we learn to deny ourselves, to place others before ourselves....to make ourselves the servant of others...

The Christian's crown is a crown of thorns..
the symbol of a suffering servant of others,

Once again, if you are right, then Christ was mistaken to tell them such a thing. So, if Christ wanted them to fully understand that they should not care about such things and that we are all equal when it comes to such things--why on earth would he:

1. Tell them that they will judge the tribes of Israel (especially in light all but John ended up dead) and
2. Why would he tell them they would judge when even the newest person in the vineyard will end up the same?

Was Jesus mistaken to make such a comment? Especially in light that you and Walter have worked so hard to show me how this must not be?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Im glad you asked about referring to Martin on this issue.

It took me a while to track down what Walter taught on this verse, but I searched and searched, and..... I found it!!!!

here is the link to the recording -
https://www.blueletterbible.org/audi...ce_of_the_Gods

at that website you will find two different places to click on the "STREAM"....click on the upper one marked "The Key to Mormon Theology: Romance of the Gods"


Walter talks about the verse in question at the 40:20 point of the recording...





Enjoy!

Just listened---do you know that Walter Martin just changed the actual scripture. He said, that Christ said, "if ye call them gods BECAUSE the word has came to them."

It does not say that AT ALL. I just looked at the Bible Hub to see if any translation reads this way. And the answer is no.

Wow, Walter Martin is changing the scripture to fit his meaning. What a sick man.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Wow, Walter Martin is changing the scripture to fit his meaning. What a sick man.

sick eh?.........we dont need to worry about talking ever again...

thanks for playing...IGNORED...

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

sick eh?.........we dont need to worry about talking ever again...

thanks for playing...IGNORED...

You know--you have put down Joseph Smith in the most hideous of ways.

I noted that it took a sick man to lecture on a scripture and actually paraphrase it in a way that it has NEVER been translated. And for that, you put me on ignore.

The truth is, you have never explained why Christ told the apostles they would be "judges of Israel" even though they were martyred. You never explained WHY the "evil judges" are called "children of the Most High." You never even touched on why Christ tells that the "good and faithful" servants will be "rulers of many things."

It is so much easier to just get offended at the slightest thing just as JohnT did, just as MichaelS did and now just as you are.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so this is about me now?

It time to get personal?

time to get snotty with me?




...

Over and over the same things happen....
Regardless of the attempts I make to try to keep this about the bible and to lift up and respect the text. ..,

They always get a warning to not cross the line with me....that is Strike One.
They seem to always disregard my warning...that is Strike Two
They cross the line yet again....that is Strike Three...(Guess what happens at strike three?)

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You know--you have put down Joseph Smith in the most hideous of ways.

I noted that it took a sick man to lecture on a scripture and actually paraphrase it in a way that it has NEVER been translated. And for that, you put me on ignore.

The truth is, you have never explained why Christ told the apostles they would be "judges of Israel" even though they were martyred. You never explained WHY the "evil judges" are called "children of the Most High." You never even touched on why Christ tells that the "good and faithful" servants will be "rulers of many things."

It is so much easier to just get offended at the slightest thing just as JohnT did, just as MichaelS did and now just as you are.

Seriously, do you make it a habit of jumping from perception to conclusion that easily? Try not to misplace a tender response as defense. Btw, good morning!

Your first and last "judges of Israel" and "rulers of many things" would pertain to being within the thousand-yr reign wouldn’t it?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Seriously, do you make it a habit of jumping from perception to conclusion that easily? Try not to misplace a tender response as defense. Btw, good morning!

Your first and last "judges of Israel" and "rulers of many things" would pertain to being within the thousand-yr reign wouldn’t it?

Why would it only pertain to the thousand year reign? It is understandable that ALL are under God and his reign--but that is now as well. But it also makes sense that under God's reign are "many mansions."

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I don't jump that easily--as I have seen the pattern too many times.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Seriously, do you make it a habit of jumping from perception to conclusion that easily? Try not to misplace a tender response as defense. Btw, good morning!

Your first and last "judges of Israel" and "rulers of many things" would pertain to being within the thousand-yr reign wouldn’t it?

Why would it only pertain to the thousand year reign? It is understandable that ALL are under God and his reign--but that is now as well. But it also makes sense that under God's reign are "many mansions."

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I don't jump that easily--as I have seen the pattern too many times.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Over and over the same things happen....
Regardless of the attempts I make to try to keep this about the bible and to lift up and respect the text. ..,

They always get a warning to not cross the line with me....that is Strike One.
They seem to always disregard my warning...that is Strike Two
They cross the line yet again....that is Strike Three...(Guess what happens at strike three?)

I guess when you ignore anyone that makes the slightest offense, the only left to talk to is yourself.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Why would it only pertain to the thousand year reign? It is understandable that ALL are under God and his reign--but that is now as well. But it also makes sense that under God's reign are "many mansions."

Jhn 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

I don't jump that easily--as I have seen the pattern too many times.

Using your Matt 19:28 reference which points us,

“that they will sit on 12 thrones and judge the tribes of Israel, ,”

Fair enough question. Because nothing I can find tells us we have ended the thousand year reign while the final judgement begins.

The second “rulers of many things” point I can agree, as can happen then or now. But,

“Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained” (Acts 17:31)

No one I can find sufficiently details that the great white throne judgement happens outside of the ending thousand year reign. Even with the Rev 20 wording.

May I ask, were you working up to something by asking Alan “you do not explain WHY Christ would tell them this.”?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

... asking Alan ...

In all questions dealing with the afterlife, and what will become of us, we should look at every answer we might come up with with the knowledge that they will always fall short of the truth.

The reason?

This is the reason - "What no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, and what no human mind has conceived" -- the things God has prepared for those who love him--


Moses saw a burning bush....But God is not actually just a bush plant that was on fire ..

Another man hears a small voice.....but we know God is not actually just a little voice.

Christ is called a door....but we know Christ is not actually made of wood with iron fittings...

Its the same whenever Christ would speak to us of the kingdom.
He used words to describe things that simply cant be described.
The Kingdom is 'like" this.......the Kingdom is"like" that.....

And that is true in a limited and symbolic way.....but we always need to keep in mind that the Kingdom is not "just' like something we might point to....its not totally the same as the things we see around us now.

When Jesus was giving his answer about Christians sitting on thrones we cant say at all that this is 'exactly" like what Jesus actually had in mind...because we also have to keep in mind that the bible also teaches that we have not even been able to conceive of what is to come for us in the Kingdom.

I think as I read in the story of the way the 12 followers of Christ began to debate who of their number would be the greatest in the Kingdom,it may well be because Christ had told them that they would sit on thrones one day and judge the 12 tribes of the Jews.
I can guess they were even deciding on what rooms in King Herod's palace they would each get!

We hear a word like "throne"and right away start thinking about gold chairs and royal processions, and crowns, and Lords and Ladies standing along the sides of long rooms....

But....thats not what I think this is about, thats not what I think we Christians are about.



This is what I think is a better understanding of the throne Christ speaks of, as well as the crown the Christian is given in the afterlife:

The Christian throne is a cross dripping his blood...thats where the carpenter proved he was the King.

The Christian crown is made of thorns.






.