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Thread: Calling evolution "theistic" dosen't make it true.

  1. #1
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Default Calling evolution "theistic" dosen't make it true.

    There are a lot of people, many who call themselves Christians, who believe that Genesis is an inadequate presentation of what happened and we have to marry it with scientific discovery in order to get to the truth. Get past the idea that science, makes any contribution to an understanding of creation. It makes none. There is no such thing as the science of creation. There is no such thing. It does not exist. Why? Because there is no scientific way to explain creation. It was not a natural event or a series of natural events. It was a brief series of monumental super-natural events that cannot be explained by science. All science is based on observation and no one observed creation. All science must be verified by repe***ion and creation cannot be repeated, and thus it cannot be verified. So, all that is left to the reader of scripture is the opportunity to believe and trust in the Word of the Creator. Some people say, “Well couldn’t God have used evolution? The answer is no. He couldn’t have used evolution because God doesn’t deal in randomness and chance. He determined to create miraculously which is the only way that it could have happened because it’s the way it did happen. And He did it all in six days. This is either true, or it’s not. If it’s true, then Scripture is true. If it’s not, then Scripture is not true. Before Darwin, no one was confused by it. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” From there the first chapter of Genesis proceeds to tell us that in six twenty-four hour days, purposely noting morning and evening, that God created everything that exists. It is so simple and so clear and so unmistakable that even a small child can understand Genesis 1. And calling evolution “theistic evolution” does not make it any more true, because evolution can’t happen. It's impossible, and it is impossible because things cannot move upward, they all move downward in decay, that's the law of thermodynamics, called entropy, a law that God created. It's easy to illustrate. If you take your car put it out in the woods and leave it there for 50 years, you'll go back and you'll find a rotted out, rusted out, dilapidated, collapsing pile of junk. It would be idiocy to conclude that if you just left it there for another hundred years it would start running. Jumping from species to species in an upward fashion does not happen, cannot happen, has never happened. We can't accept theistic evolution because we can't accept any kind of evolution because evolution can't happen. Evolution and scripture do not go hand in hand. If you accept an evolutionary view, you then go against the reason which is a gift that God has given you.

  2. #2
    alanmolstad
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    Let me show you how "chance" works in the bible...and how you can have a world with chance in it, yet also have a world under the authority of God.

  3. #3
    alanmolstad
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    First...the thing we call "chance"is not really part of evolution.
    Evolution works by lots and lots of rules that determine outcomes.
    In fact, in evolution, nothing is actually left to chance.


    But the idea of 'chance" or random events that are hard to predict is not something that shoild scare Bible students....for we see examples in the Text of how we are to understand "chance" and understand how God can used it

  4. #4
    alanmolstad
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    The example of how we can have both "chance" and God in full control at the same time is shown us in the example of Jonah and the whale.


    Remember that story?

    The story is a great example of how the christian should understand the idea of "chance"

  5. #5
    alanmolstad
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    to review the story of Jonah-


    Jonah is on a ship.
    There is a great storm.
    The crew is scared, and they think they are all going to die.
    They decide to draw lots to see who is at fault for the storm?

    (Now Im not sure what it means to "draw-lot" but lets just say they draw straws.)


    So lets say there were 10 people that were drawing straws.
    What is the "chance" any of the people have of drawing the short straw?......answer, 1 out of 10 correct?


    I think we all can see how each of the people on the ship in the storm had a 1out of 10 chance of drawing the short straw.
    Thats the facts....thats science...

    thats how men of science look at the world...they see the "chance" is not just dumb-luck, but rather it comes down to the laws or probability.
    Nothing about drawing straws is magic....

    Just as nothing about the science of the study of Evolution is magic.
    There are rules that govern the outcomes in drawing straws just as there are tons and tons of rules that govern evolution...


    But....to the student of the Bible...."WE".....we get to know a little bit information that the man of science does not get.

    and that makes all the difference in both how we read and understand the story of Jonah, and in our study of evolution.





    what do we know?
    We know that God was in the drawing of the straws....and because god was in control, there was a 100% "chance' that Jonah would pick the short straw.

    We know this.....

    We know that god did not just leave this up to random luck....

    We know that when Jonah picked the short straw it was all part of god's eternal plan that was set in stone and fixed before the universe was created.

    Nothing was left to chance.



    But at the same time...if a man of science were watching the men on the ship draw straws, he would have seen no giant hand reaching down out of the sky to control the straws.
    To the man of science observing, there would have been no sign at all that god did any controlling of the outcome in any way!

    Thus....you can have something that looks to be total dumb luck....and at the same time have God in full control.
    Both things are totally true....and do not contradict each other at all...



    So the life in the universe can be here via evolution.....and God can be in full control.

    and both ideas are totally 100% true....

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    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    The example of how we can have both "chance" and God in full control at the same time is shown us in the example of Jonah and the whale.


    Remember that story?

    The story is a great example of how the christian should understand the idea of "chance"
    Please expound on that, I would like to hear more.

  7. #7
    alanmolstad
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    and it because of this that I have now posted about above that Evolution and genesis walk hand-in-hand.

  8. #8
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Please expound on that, I would like to hear more.
    Notice how I always back everything up I teach with scripture....

    if you doubt anything I have said, just ask me for the verse.


    be like the Bereans, open up your Bible to see if all that I have said is true?





    However if you disagree with my conclusions, be ready to be asked for a verse...cuz I will be asking for bible support for anyone who disagrees with me

  9. #9
    alanmolstad
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    Be like the Bereans
    Open your Bible....quote scripture....read to see if what someone says is found there?

    back-up your views with a verse .
    ask others to do the same

  10. #10
    alanmolstad
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    .......and learn the value of putting things in "paragraphs"

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    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    t



    what do we know?
    We know that God was in the drawing of the straws....and because god was in control, there was a 100% "chance' that Jonah would pick the short straw.

    We know this.....

    We know that god did not just leave this up to random luck....

    We know that when Jonah picked the short straw it was all part of god's eternal plan that was set in stone and fixed before the universe was created.

    Nothing was left to chance.


    Alan your making my point for me, God had a purpose and a plan in creation. He had no need for random mutations, long periods of time, survival of the fittest and all the other things that define evolution.

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    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Alan your making my point for me, God had a purpose and a plan in creation. He had no need for random mutations, long periods of time, survival of the fittest and all the other things that define evolution.
    You still got no Bible verses to back that stuff up yet?
    after all this time you still cant find a single verse to support your views?

    When you don't post a verse that supports your views, do you do that thinking I wont notice?
    When you are clearly unable to counter my Scripture with your own, do you think I will overlook that fact?
    That is a bit sad...
    We are supposed to be ready "always" to give to every person a reason for our faith in things...

    So far you seem to be totally unable to do that...so why should I listen to you at all?





    And, I think you who missed my point....LOL

    My point is that you can have evolution that follows the natural laws that are created by the Lord....
    And at the same time you can have a story of Genesis that also talks about the very same events in earth history....and find that both works are true...and both works do not contradict each other....


    Now if you disagree you better have a bible verse and not just your opinion...

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    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    You still got no Bible verses to back that stuff up yet?
    after all this time you still cant find a single verse to support your views?

    When you don't post a verse that supports your views, do you do that thinking I wont notice?
    When you are clearly unable to counter my Scripture with your own, do you think I will overlook that fact?
    That is a bit sad...
    We are supposed to be ready "always" to give to every person a reason for our faith in things...

    So far you seem to be totally unable to do that...so why should I listen to you at all?





    And, I think you who missed my point....LOL

    My point is that you can have evolution that follows the natural laws that are created by the Lord....
    And at the same time you can have a story of Genesis that also talks about the very same events in earth history....and find that both works are true...and both works do not contradict each other....


    Now if you disagree you better have a bible verse and not just your opinion...
    Alan,

    I think you are more interested in being right than being honest. The whole bible contradicts what you are saying and your
    goading will not cause me to doubt the truth of God's word. I have posted scriptures and posed questions which you
    ignore and refuse to answer.
    “Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.” Gen 2:7
    This doesn’t sound like evolution. God could have chosen to create humans in any way He desired. However, Scripture records the particular way He did create—using both natural material (dust) and supernatural power to give humans a unique place in the universe. He put the breath of life in us not the nostrils of an ape.

  14. #14
    alanmolstad
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    what is man made from?

    What does the Bible say?

    it says-that man is made from this earth.
    The earth is the source.

    We are a part of this earth that has come to life.

    Its the same for all the animals like the great apes too!

    They share this same source with humans.
    All the animals also come from the same source, the earth.

    This agrees with the source found in Evolution.




    and...when you lookm at the vers you quoted..it says God " breathed " into man.

    So your God has lungs?....like the Mormon god?
    Do Christians teach that God has lips, and lungs and that God needs to breath to live?




    Or.....

    is the expression God "breathed " a symbol?

    When we read that God "breathed" could it be said to be more a figure of speech?

    perhaps a metaphor?




    of course it is...

    God does not have lips...or fingers, or lungs...God is Spirit.
    So when we are talking about the way the bible talks about God,,,,ie like the wings of God, we dont mean that such things are to be taken as physical...for God is not a barn chicken!


    Rather its intended to point us to something that we could never understand otherwise.

    God created man...We are his handywork...and man has a spirit.



    Nothing about that is against Evolution....its just a different way to talk about man.


  15. #15
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Alan,

    and your
    goading will not cause me to doubt the truth of God's word..
    My goading is to get you to open up the Bible and read what Im pointing to , to see if what i have quoted is found in the text.


    and so its not God's word I want you to call into question....I want you to doubt the teachings of the Young Earth Creationist...

    They are the teachings we all should doubt...


  16. #16
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    what is man made from?

    What does the Bible say?

    it says-that man is made from this earth.
    The earth is the source.

    We are a part of this earth that has come to life.

    Its the same for all the animals like the great apes too!

    They share this same source with humans.
    All the animals also come from the same source, the earth.

    This agrees with the source found in Evolution.




    and...when you lookm at the vers you quoted..it says God " breathed " into man.

    So your God has lungs?....like the Mormon god?
    Do Christians teach that God has lips, and lungs and that God needs to breath to live?




    Or.....

    is the expression God "breathed " a symbol?

    When we read that God "breathed" could it be said to be more a figure of speech?

    perhaps a metaphor?




    of course it is...

    God does not have lips...or fingers, or lungs...God is Spirit.
    So when we are talking about the way the bible talks about God,,,,ie like the wings of God, we dont mean that such things are to be taken as physical...for God is not a barn chicken!


    Rather its intended to point us to something that we could never understand otherwise.

    God created man...We are his handywork...and man has a spirit.



    Nothing about that is against Evolution....its just a different way to talk about man.

    Alan,

    Scripture records God speaking audibly to people in both the Old and New testaments, so I guess since God does not have lips or a tongue the bible is lying.
    Gen 2:7 is clear, God created man fully human and then put life into him.

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    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    You know, as it is written:

    “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” (Hosea 4:6)

    What then are they to do with it when they get it?

    “Just say a simple yes or no, so that you will not sin and be condemned.” (I Cor 1:27)

    If simplicity has lost her way from the conversation till she can't be found, that alone is a big one.

    Thanks Disciple!

  18. #18
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Alan,

    Scripture records God speaking audibly to people in both the Old and New testaments, so I guess since God does not have lips or a tongue the bible is lying.
    Gen 2:7 is clear, God created man fully human and then put life into him.
    Mormons believe God is a man on a distant world....
    im sure the mormon god has lips, hair, bad breath, and boy parts for all the endless sex he has to make all the spirit-babies...

    I think that idea is crazy..........very crazy

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    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Mormons believe God is a man on a distant world....

    I think that idea is crazy..........very crazy
    Agreed. The text is clear God is not a man no matter what the arrangement.

  20. #20
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    You know, as it is written:

    “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” (Hosea 4:6)

    What then are they to do with it when they get it?

    “Just say a simple yes or no, so that you will not sin and be condemned.” (I Cor 1:27)

    If simplicity has lost her way from the conversation till she can't be found, that alone is a big one.

    Thanks Disciple!

    Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.







    thats how you play the game kids....
    You listen carefully, then open your bibles and put what you have heard to the test...

    If what Im saying is not found in the Bible?..reject it.

    But if everything i say is actually found in the bible and you still do not believe?..then you are against what the bible is teaching...and at war with God.

  21. #21
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Agreed. The text is clear God is not a man no matter what the arrangement.
    thus this backs-up what Im saying..

    That you can have the Genesis story tell us that God "breathed" into the man, and understand it as a metaphor that is actually talking about the fact that man is the result of God's direct handy work...that we are who we are because of god...

    Nothing about that is against evolution.


    Evolution is a natural law that god created...just as water, as rain, as snow...
    all are things that god has created to be here...all reflect His thinking...his 'hands"

  22. #22
    alanmolstad
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    God 'formed"the man out of the earth.

    the very word "Adam" means "ground" of this earth....thats who we are....thats what we are named after..



    thats what the Bible tells us....

    Humans did not just 'pop" into the creation out of nothingness

    God used things that already existed to 'form" humans.




    The word "formed" means we are the result of 'work'......

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    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    thus this backs-up what Im saying..

    That you can have the Genesis story tell us that God "breathed" into the man, and understand it as a metaphor that is actually talking about the fact that man is the result of God's direct handy work...that we are who we are because of god...

    Nothing about that is against evolution.


    Evolution is a natural law that god created...just as water, as rain, as snow...
    all are things that god has created to be here...all reflect His thinking...his 'hands"
    Alan,

    Evolution cannot be a natural law, as it is at odds with the 2nd law of thermodynamics which is a proven, scientifically tested law
    like the law of gravity, not a theory like evolution. At least be honest, evolution is a theory put forth by Darwin and nothing more.

  24. #24
    alanmolstad
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    Humans were created by God....from this earth.

    We are created on the 6th day...this is true.

    But what is also true is that because the 7th Day has no ending yet in the bible we cant say for sure how long any day in genesis lasts for us....

  25. #25
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Alan,

    Evolution cannot be a natural law, as it is at odds with the 2nd law of thermodynamics which is a proven, scientifically tested law
    like the law of gravity, not a theory like evolution. At least be honest, evolution is a theory put forth by Darwin and nothing more.
    somewhere along the line,,,I simply have not gotten it across to people here, that "Alan does not defend evolution!"




    Im not sure how else to post that fact?

    Would Bigger letters help? Alan does not defend evolution!"




    Im a Bible student...the bible i know...the Bible i quote in all my posts...the bible I can deal with.

    thats also why no one dares ask me Bible type questions...cuz they know im up to speed on the bible....LOL

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