Calling evolution "theistic" dosen't make it true.

[alanmolstad]

so we can read that Enoch lived for years, and yet all this took place on the same Genesis 7th "day"?....yes...

[alanmolstad]

so it does not matter what person the YEC might try to list as having lived after the 6th day?......nope, it don't matter who they list, or how many people that they can name that lived after the 6th day..
| In fact, if they wanted to they can even list myself, for I was born after the 6th day too!....



So it does not matter a hoot because we are all still born, live for years, and die during the Genesis 7th Day ?.....yes,

[MichaellS]

Over and over and over you keep asking for a verse in Genesis. Sorry little one, the party actually ended long ago, but don’t stop the promotion, you are we see enjoying yourself simply too much. Unless that is you can bring yourself to see things differently?!?!

Since you now don’t want to read any more of my comments, let me keep this as concise a Christian declaration that uniformly separates evolution from Christianity as possible. You see, we as Christians don’t want to be thought uncharitable when hearing the views of others, whether they bring Christian content or not.

So then, that is the question isn’t it, which all the brethren have answered for those who truly are concerned,

Is Evolution Christian or non-Christian?

I too have given our friend Alan half the answer that should have been enough to stop a whole herd of Bible irregulars with a thousand counterfeits. But not Alan.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I have asked you over and over to back up anything you believe about genesis with the text and you have FAILED to do that.

Let me know when you get to talking about Genesis...I will pay attention to that post.

Okay then, connecting the Apostle’s opposition to Genesis. Is that what you want? If I provide that, will you stop leading the people astray as though evolution is something considered to be “Christian”?

Let me provide the reader that which deals with this in no uncertain terms. But first we need to repair all of the broken context so we can easily see just how ungodly it is. In other words, does it belong in a Christian church? Most definitely not, and here also is why.

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You still got no Bible verses to back that stuff up yet?

Patience my friend, patience. Here, let’s review, collect, and close the question, shall we?

As I said, the Apostles would have destroyed this consideration in the cradle,

“We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ,” (II Cor 10:5)

Now, couple this verse with another verse so we can clearly see the parameters of “thought”,

“For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified” (I Cor 2:2)

Now then here is Alan’s concern,

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Let me know when you get to talking about Genesis...I will pay attention to that post.

Okay then, but keep in mind who we are talking about here, this is about Christians who want to be known for using the word of God in faith, , “For all that is not of faith is sin” (Romans 14:23)

Now then, where does the Apostle’s concern lay claim to Genesis?

II Timothy 3:16, “All scripture”

But what does this all mean to the painfully simple-minded individual out there? Let’s boil it all down for him shall we?

As the Apostle Paul did say in a number of ways, we are to keep his very conduct before us while we all by the help of His Spirit, try to follow Christ. This is shown in a number of scriptures.

Now comes a strong-man of thought – Evolution. What would the Apostles have done with evolution?

They would have first identified it,

Ripe of unrelated conjecture to Christ.

Then they would act without delay, remember? For they were concerned for “redeeming the time”

They would have destroyed it (II Corinthians 10:5)

But how much of it?

All, all “Christ and him crucified” (I Corinthians 2:2)

But how much of the Bible should v2 lay claim to?

All. (II Timothy 3:16)

Well, there you have it. Now the ball is in your court to decide as a Christian.

• Renounce your obedience to Christ and continue this promotional show, or,

• Commence repentance immediately as fellow member Jude informed us.

Of which all of us would be elated over to hear of without exception. Don't delay!

Mike.
.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

So in Genesis the word "Day"can have an unknown amount of time it is talking about?.....Yes, many times we see the word "day"listed and we are not sure how long of time we are dealing with... It's kinda like saying to my kids, "Well back in my DAY things were different"....My use of the word "DAY" is singular its true,but Im not saying that things were different for just 24 hours...LOL


or like when the Bible talks about the "day of the Lord"... or "In that day..."..we are not talking about 24 hrs and then things go back to the way they were.

or like when a store says its open 6 "days"a week, we are not to understand it will only be open for the next 6 24 hour days, and then close forever...


so as we see, there is nothing in the Bible, in the story of genesis, or in real life that says the word "day" means only 24 hours....

the issue of the "days"of Genesis is where a lot of Bible students that get sucked into the teachings of the YEC movement make their biggest errors.

in many of the YEC textbooks they make it seem to their followers that the Hebrew word for "day" always means 24 hours.
They make it seem that this is a hard and fast rule...
And because most YEC students are so trusting, they get taken back when they later discover that the Hebrew is not like they were informed.

The word "day"when even in singular, can have a meaning in context that is talking about an unknown, or even unlimited amount of time.

[alanmolstad]

so for each of the first 6 days of the creation week there are very clear endings given to us by the writer of genesis?....yes

Each days ends the very same way?......yes


No changes?......nope


Every day ends the same way with the same wordings?.....yes


So its a clear pattern that is being followed by the writer of genesis to make sure we understand when each day ended?....yes, that is very clear to the reader

[alanmolstad]

so we have very clear proof that each of the 6 days have endings?.....yes.



and the 7th day has no ending in the story?......nope

and there is no verse in the Genesis story that says the same wording that was used for the 6 days to describe the ending of the 7th day?......nope


is there a verse in the Old test that says "and there was evening and morning the 7th day"?.........no



and there is no such wording in the whole of the Bible about the 7th day ending?.....no

[alanmolstad]

So this very careful pattern that is used by the writer of Genesis to inform us that the first 6 days have already ended, was not used to talk about the 7th day?......that is true.

So while we have clear endings for 6 days, there is no such careful ending for the 7th day?.....that is true



and there is no way to thus prove the 7th day has ended, if you are looking for the same pattern used for the first 6 days?....that is true, there is no such listed ending to the 7th day at any point in the Bible.





well.....is there any verse in the Bible that says God has "finished" he 7th day of rest?.......no


So God is still resting from his work of creation?.....yes




But one day the Bible does say god shall return to more work of creation?.....yes!


so the bible does teach that the 7th day of the creation rest does end in the future?.....yes



so the 7th day is not forever?.....no, the 7th day will end in the future according to the scriptures that speak of a new heaven and a new earth.




so we are in the 7th day?......yes

[alanmolstad]

so for each of the first 6 days of the creation week there are very clear endings given to us by the writer of genesis?....yes

Each days ends the very same way?......yes


No changes?......nope


Every day ends the same way with the same wordings?.....yes


So its a clear pattern that is being followed by the writer of genesis to make sure we understand when each day ended?....yes, that is very clear to the reader

[alanmolstad]

so...in the future the 7th day will have an"evening and morning, the 7th day"?.......It's just a guess, but I think so.....based on the pattern the Bible makes use of, i would expect that when the ending to the 7th day has arrived to then see it appear in the word of god in the same wording as found in genesis.


so one day you expect a Bible will have "and there was evening and morning, the 7th day"?.....yes...in keeping with the Bible's own way of wording when days of creation end..
While there is not clear verse in the Bible that teaches this, we do have to remember that the writer of Genesis has made use of a very hard to miss pattern, and that with the 7th day we see that pattern "interrupted">...and we also have to keep in mind that near the time when the lord returns to his work of creation, the writer of the book of Genesis is said to return to the earth.

Moses is said in the Bible to return to life ?......yes. its found in the Book of revelation at the end time that Moses will return...

[alanmolstad]

so you expect one day the Bible will read, "and there was evening and morning, the 7th day"?......Yes, it could be expected that Moses will add that addition to his own written work of the Genesis story by placing an ending to the 7th day when an ending finally happens...You have to also remember, that when an ending to the 7th day finally happens, the only person really that should record that into the text of the Bible, is the same person who wrote about the endings to the other 6 days....and that is Moses.,,,

[jude1:3]

Alan why do you reply to your Own posts ?

Why won't you engage with the other Christian posters ?

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by jude1:3

Alan why do you reply to your Own posts ?

Why won't you engage with the other Christian posters ?

Very perceptive for you to ask, , because the Holy Spirit is in the process of being dealt with here.

I surmise the force of necessity is now in the process of delivering a certain amount of wrath for mis-handling His word. This translates as low-level misery or discomfort.

“For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all, , people who, , suppress the truth” (Romans 1:18)

It is perceptive for you to ask because he has decided to give some concession to that necessity by not wanting to offend the Spirit, simply because he has scaled back from corresponding to His messaging through His children - us.

But what I think had him ponder so long recently is he was left with too much doubt of our support of him both in prayer and sincerity, and instead of relinquishing all towards freefall, he has resumed the only virtuous act left for his involvement in this issue - helping others.

So he has decided to mix the two and take the heat, but I’m sure everyone here sees that he is terribly wrong to trifle with the Spirit’s call, not to mention our support of him.

Lest while in this mix, and through this season of working to free himself from this discomfort he forgets the incredibly high-stake here in what he is doing, ,

All of the above is now off the board as far as he is concerned, the only reason he is here now is to continue that “help” which he foolishly forgets is extrapolated “sin” as I explained in this link 128.

Though it is true, we can’t attempt to ease your discomfort (that is done by turning), do know we love you.

We are praying for you Alan.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by jude1:3

Why won't you engage with the other Christian posters ?

If you want to have a conversation with me, here is what you might do-


Above you will see a bunch of my posts where I have gone over a bunch of things that are true in the Bible concerning Genesis.

If you read something and have a doubt about it, and would like to see where I get that teaching in the Bible?...ask me to supply you with the Bible verse that supports what Im saying.

and then, go open your Bible and see if the Scripture I gave you is saying what I claim?

[alanmolstad]

a new guest asks if I mind answering questions about what Im saying in a Private-message?, and I just wanted to take this opportunity to state that I have no objection to this at all !

So if you want to know more about how Evolution can be a truly "Christian" idea and be able to have answers, (but dont want to have your commments in the open forum), just drop me a PM and I will be happy to answer any questions you might have!

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

a new guest asks if I mind answering questions about what Im saying in a Private-message?, and I just wanted to take this opportunity to state that I have no objection to this at all !

So if you want to know more about how Evolution can be a truly "Christian" idea and be able to have answers, (but dont want to have your commments in the open forum), just drop me a PM and I will be happy to answer any questions you might have!

Evading engagement, but rather chose to lead astray.

"But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light" (John 3:21)

I gave you what you asked for, what do you give back - nothing. What happened to you?

[alanmolstad]

as we have a moment and seem to have a break in the action, I also thought I might take this time as well to list some of the objections a Bible Student might hear to evolution being in agreement with Genesis.

When you read this list and come to an item that you would like to know how answer?...just ask me to address it as well as any concerns with how I am showing Scripture agreement/harmony with Evolution.


Here is a list of the common objections to Evolution/Genesis agreement:


Earth is only 6,000 years old in the bible
Evolution has animal death before Adam's sin
Bible has light created before the Sun
The word "day" can only mean 24 hours
The use of a number with the word "day" limits the time to 24 hours
The use of "Evening and Morning" force a 24 hour understanding
The 7-day work week force a 24 hour Genesis "day"
the speed of light was faster in Genesis.
God created light "in transit" between the stars
Not enough moon dust
Washington State volcano
Dino/human footprints
carbon 14 dating
mark 10;6
exodus 20;9-11
God should have used other words to describe "age" rather than "day"
Evolution is against the 2nd Law of thermodynamics

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Evading......

If at any time you or anyone else reads something i have posted and have a doubt about it?, and would like me to address your concerns and would like to see my Scripture support for a teaching?.....just ask.

But if you dont want to, or are unable to join the conversation , then Im not going to pay any attention to the comments that were simply aimed to be "personal" and about me as a"person" .

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

If at any time you or anyone else reads something i have posted and have a doubt about it?, and would like me to address your concerns and would like to see my Scripture support for a teaching?.....just ask.

But if you dont want to, or are unable to join the conversation , then Im not going to pay any attention to the comments that were simply aimed to be "personal" and about me as a"person" .

More cover, because I know it must hurt.

But so that you know that I know, I am not the one being drawn into question here. This has nothing to do with personal attacks. My points have an indelible link to this thread, and you know it.

And this evasive promoting is designed to do what, rise above that “sin”? Don’t be deceived, it is “sin”, straight from God’s word.

Don’t make the same mistake of underestimating the word of God.

Of course it is being refused. God’s word cuts straight through the heart and if in opposition to it, and that refusal will be a very bumpy road you really don’t want to mess with as long as we chose a crooked path.

“For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Heb 4:12)

“Good understanding giveth favor; But the way of the transgressor is hard.” (Proverbs 13:15)

That is why he is refusing me. He is only running and now shirking Christian discourse.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

[FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]More cover, because I know it must hurt.

I ignore personal comments...

( I mean after a while I might take some type of action, but that happens only if the other person simply just keeps posting personal comments and nothing else...remember we are here to discuss Evolution and Genesis, not each other!)

[alanmolstad]

to keep the topic moving, I thought next I might dig into the idea of there being death on the earth before the sin of Adam.


I will try to post a few ideas I have run into from the YEC teachings, and how a Bible student can answer them.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I ignore personal comments...

( I mean after a while I might take some type of action, but that happens only if the other person simply just keeps posting personal comments and nothing else...remember we are here to discuss Evolution and Genesis, not each other!)

Isn't that symptom of what I am saying, that there isn't a responsibility laid upon man?

Go ahead with your little threat.

Its true, based upon your refusal, yet promotion against the word of God - leading people astray. Sounds like pretty personal action taken by you to me!!

[alanmolstad]

Now one of the biggest objections the Bible Student is going to run into from the people that push the YEC teachings is that in evolution you learn that there was normal life and death on the earth for millions of years before the rise of modern man.

To the YEC teachings that cant be, because according to YEC teachings all death, both human and animal, is here only due to Adam's sin.

There are a few Bible verses that the YEC person will try to use to support their idea of no death on the earth before the sin of Adam.

The most often used verse used against my views in connection to this YEC teaching has to be Romans 5:12.

I will post that verse here so that we call look at it together

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned




Now when the YEC person sees this verse,and reads the part that says "death" entered the world though sin, they will automatically understand this to be talking about "all death"


(Yes, thats right, they have to slip the word "all" into the text here)

So this is why they will try to use this verse to prove that Evolution disagrees with the Bible, because Evolution holds that there was death before man, and yet to them this verse teaches them that 'all death" came after Adam's sin.


The answer to this is to point out to them that the target in the verse is only mankind.
In this verse death is said to come to "all people".....not to "all people and all animals"

Just to "all people.
So this verse is only aimed at addressing human death, not animals death at all.




Now there are some other Bible verses that might use a translation that has the word "all" included, but to answer that point we just have to point out to the YEC believer the other moments in the Bible that also make use of the word "all"


An example would be found in the way the Bible tells us at Genesis 3:20 that Eve would become the mother of "all the living".

We know for sure that the phrase "all the living" is only talking about all the humans....but the fact is, that if we are to hold that it was the sin of Adam that called "all death" including the animals, then in the same way we have to believe that Eve was the mother of "all the living" including the animals.

so what are we to then conclude?
The answer is that many times the plainest reading of a verse dealing with the word "all" will go against common sense.

and that just as Adam's sin caused death to come to "all" meaning just the people, so too we cant try to use this verse to teach that animals death was also due to Adam's sin.

Clearly the only death cause by the sin of Adam's was that of humans.....not that of any animals....







So this means that there is nothing in the Bible that teaches against the idea found in Evolution that animals died for millions of years on the earth before the rise of man.

[MichaellS]

So you still refuse to defend yourself from this thread’s objection? Who else is in collusion here with Alan?

Well, looks like at least you have an MIA moderator to side with.

New reader do retrace to see the objection.

[alanmolstad]

Just let me know if you have a question about anything I have posted now on this topic.

I would be very happy to go over the information i have posted and any questions about a verse I have quoted.




But if you have none?...then I have a few more things i plan to get to today on this topic of theistic-evolution

[alanmolstad]

One of the best things I remember most about Walter Martin in connection with this topic, is that when Walter would answer a common question about Genesis/evolution, he always allowed for the millions and billions of years of history taught by modern science in his answer.

Walter tended to shy-away from the idea that some people have that once you believe the earth is very old you are then forced to believe in a god-less evolution.
Walter would always give an answer that would allow for a old earth.

Im not saying Walter believed in evolution, but I am saying that Walter knew enough to understand that evolution is not something that in and of itself is against God's word.
Walter objected to the idea that some have that Evolution means there is no God.
Walter did not support people that connected evolution with the idea of no god...

So Walter was concerned that when people teach evolution in the church, they do so with the idea that God is always in control of evolution.
a God-less evolution is not hat Walter believed in, and neither do I.

Walter would point out to people that the Bible starts of with "In the beginning GOD created..."
It was this idea that regardless of how God did it, it yet is GOD alone that did do it!

thats what I believe too!

and Walter on many of his shows would go after people who were pushing the idea that the earth had to be young to have a true Bible.

One of the things I remember said in response to a person who believed in a young Earth was that Walter pointed out "What difference did it make if the earth was old?...."

Walter would always press the point that it did not matter if the earth was 4 hours old, or 4 billion years ol, the point of Genesis is that God made it, not the age of things made.