Evolution does not stand up to biblical scrutiny

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I like to dig deeper into what I believe because in many cases I have yet to take the time to put down in writing what I believe,

I sometimes feel like I'm the only adult in the room at times....

I got news, rudeness is no sign of maturity.

Neither is running away from God’s will a sign of depth.

[MichaellS]

Can’t quite force the truth out can you, but tell me it isn’t so, ,

You are concerned for God’s will shown by biblical scrutiny.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

Can’t quite force the truth out can you, but tell me it isn’t so, ,

You are concerned for God’s will shown by biblical scrutiny.

Well, ,

Are you?

[MichaellS]

What is this, , dither upon repeat delay upon delay. Hesitation shows false ground under repair.

[alanmolstad]

as I have said...if I have taught on a topic something that you call into question, then just ask me, "Where does the Bible teach that?"and I will show you the verse...for all that I teach is taken from the word of God.

This is why I quote it in all my teachings,and the people that disagree with me cant quote squat to support their views of the creation story.

Ever heard a guy say that God created Adam as a fully adult human male?.....Well ask them "What verse teaches this?".....LOL

They dont got squat to back up their views...they only got the YEC websites and textbooks that simply quote the word of Henry Morris and Morris was in error....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Ever heard a guy say that God created Adam as a fully adult human male?.....Well ask them "What verse teaches this?".....LOL

Once in a while when I hear a guy try to tell me that God made Adam as a fully adult human male., I ask them in return, "Where does it say that in the Bible?"

and they are suddenly stumped!

For they know it does not say that in the Bible....(they only wish it did...LOL )

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

Once in a while when I hear a guy try to tell me that God made Adam as a fully adult human male., I ask them in return, "Where does it say that in the Bible?"

and they are suddenly stumped!

For they know it does not say that in the Bible....(they only wish it did...LOL )

Well then what was Adam? If he was an infant, then who took care of him? The Bible is clear that Adam had no human parent, Luke calls him the son of God because of this (Luke 3:38). In the Old Testament, the angels are called ‘sons of God’ for the same reason,they are direct creations of God.
Was Adam some sort of ape or missing link? Perhaps you could tell us, unless you are stumped?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Well then what was Adam? If he was an infant, then who took care of him??

Do you see how your question drives you to invent your own answer?...this is the main problem I had with Ken Ham's teachings as well.

He had a problem with the sun being created on the 4th day according to his teachings, the problem he had was the "let there be light" verse that appears before the 4th day.

The question he asked was, "Where is the source for that light?" and that question was what drives him to invent the "source-less light" concept..and on that concept he hangs all his other teachings.


There is a better way....

The better way is to Teach what the Bible teaches, and for the things it does not teach , DONT INVENT STUFF!.






Its like the question, "Where did Cain's wife come from?"

people dream up all kinds of answers for that question.
They really want the Bible to have a good answer for that question, but because the bible does not say, they feel the need to invent an answer.


But once again, there is a better way.
The better way is to teach what the Bible teaches, and for the things the Bible does not teach,, DON'T INVENT STUFF !!!

[alanmolstad]

so...is there a Bible verse that teaches that god created Adam as a fully-formed adult human male?.....no




So anyone who claims God did that is just inventing ideas because they need the Bible to teach something that the bible is mute about.

[alanmolstad]

There is another thing to keep in mind when we study the Bible.

When we are reading in the Genesis account of something happening in the sky of Day 1, we cant take this to mean that nothing else could not be happening in the seas at the same time.

what we read happening on Day 1 in the sky is just what we are told was going on...not the whole list of everything that might be going on elsewhere.


Just as on a later day we read about something going on on the land...
We cant take the fact that just because something is listed going on on the land that this means that nothing else was going on...or that nothing else was going on in the sky or in the seas...

All we should understand is that when we read of some stuff happening on the land that this is just the list of stuff that the writer felt inspired to list...
It should not be considered the full list, ..

its just the list of things the writer felt were important to his story.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Perhaps you could tell us, unless you are stumped?

I can tell you ONLY what I read in the text and that's it.



So it is very true that you will always be able to ask more questions about ideas you dream up than any student of the Bible will be able to answer using only the Bible as his only source..






I can answer questions that have clear answers in the text.
So what do we read?...we read that mankind was created OUTSIDE the protected garden and was then later taken and placed into the garden.

This means that whatever life was like outside the garden?..thats actually where we are from.


What else do we read in the Bible?....we know that the word "Adam" is used as a symbol in the Bible, (the Last Adam)

We know that the source for human is the same source for the animals, (the earth)


So we see in the Text that god forms humans out of the same common source that he formed all other life, and then after God had created the man, he did something interesting to man...God breathed into the man...and that is the point we became who we are now.

Now what does it mean for God to have " breathed" into humans?.....Im not sure.

We know that God does not have a mouth, for God is not a man.
So we must seek other understandings for the words>

And this has been why great men of the church have used the verse where we see God had "breathed" in some unknown manner into us to teach all manner of teachings.

The final answer is likely known but to God alone, for we just are not told in the Bible, , and might be something as symbolic as the Bible makes use of the term "Adam" being very symbolic.



But thats what we know, for that it what we can prove with the text...


There is nothing about Adam being created as an adult human male.

The writer of Genesis has written what god wanted written, and there is nothing to support the idea that we must be able to find the answers to all our questions in the text.
The writer of Genesis is clearly not interested in all the questions we might ask about his story...

We are given what was inspired to be written,,,and thats all....

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Well then what was Adam? If he was an infant, then who took care of him? .....

see how you invented a whole foundation for your understanding out of thin air?

The fact that you dont know who took care of Adam drives you to invent that Adam was created as an adult...

There is nothing in the bible to support that understanding,,,its just the result of men's thinking and forcing the Bible to teach things it does not say one single word about...


Then you use that inventing idea that you just dreamed up to be the foundation of a whole set of teachings that also have not one single word in the Bible to support them...


Its all a house of cards!

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

see how you invented a whole foundation for your understanding out of thin air?

The fact that you dont know who took care of Adam drives you to invent that Adam was created as an adult...

There is nothing in the bible to support that understanding,,,its just the result of men's thinking and forcing the Bible to teach things it does not say one single word about...


Then you use that inventing idea that you just dreamed up to be the foundation of a whole set of teachings that also have not one single word in the Bible to support them...


Its all a house of cards!

Not my invention, blame Luke. The Bible is clear that Adam had no human parents—Luke calls him the son of God because of this (Luke 3:38)

[disciple]

Genealogy - noun
a line of descent traced continuously from an ancestor.
So do you believe the genealogy in Luke chapter 3 is incorrect? I don't see any name between Adam and God.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Genealogy - noun
a line of descent traced continuously from an ancestor.
So do you believe the genealogy in Luke chapter 3 is incorrect? I don't see any name between Adam and God.

again,,,where have I said there should be a name to read?

Why do you ***ume that every question we can ask must have an answer in the Bible?


The Bible does not make that claim of itself.

[alanmolstad]

genealogy .......now as for this topic:


During my 8-week YEC cl*** i attended taught to me by Ken Ham personally, Ken talked about how all the modern YEC books and websites all base their ideas on the work of Henry Morris.

And Ham also told me that Henry Morris taught that there are "gaps" in the listed genealogy that we find in the Bible.


But you can find out this stuff for yourself, just GOOGLE search for "Gap Genealogy in Bible" and you will see site after site of proof that when we read the lists of names in the Bible that we should NOT believe for a moment that this is the perfect listing...

http://www.reasons.org/articles/are-...al-genealogies
The structure of the genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 also favors the belief that they do not register all the names in these respective lines of descent.


""The general fact that the genealogies of Scripture were not constructed for a chronological purpose and lend themselves ill to employment as a basis for chronological calculations"

and here also is what I think it all comes down to -

"In a word, the Scriptural data leave us wholly without guidance in estimating the time which elapsed between the creation of the world and the deluge and between the deluge and the call of Abraham. So far as the Scripture ***ertions are concerned, we may suppose any length of time to have intervened between these events

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

genealogy .......now as for this topic:


During my 8-week YEC cl*** i attended taught to me by Ken Ham personally, Ken talked about how all the modern YEC books and websites all base their ideas on the work of Henry Morris.

And Ham also told me that Henry Morris taught that there are "gaps" in the listed genealogy that we find in the Bible.


But you can find out this stuff for yourself, just GOOGLE search for "Gap Genealogy in Bible" and you will see site after site of proof that when we read the lists of names in the Bible that we should NOT believe for a moment that this is the perfect listing...

http://www.reasons.org/articles/are-...al-genealogies
The structure of the genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11 also favors the belief that they do not register all the names in these respective lines of descent.


""The general fact that the genealogies of Scripture were not constructed for a chronological purpose and lend themselves ill to employment as a basis for chronological calculations"

and here also is what I think it all comes down to -

"In a word, the Scriptural data leave us wholly without guidance in estimating the time which elapsed between the creation of the world and the deluge and between the deluge and the call of Abraham. So far as the Scripture ***ertions are concerned, we may suppose any length of time to have intervened between these events

Ok I'll try to make it simple, once again. Was there any man, ape, missing link, etc. between Adam and God?

[alanmolstad]

I will make it even simpler...

In the Bible story of Adam and Eve, where is Adam said to be from?

Not sure????

I will quote a verse that tells us where Adam is from
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

So I ask again, "Where was Adam from?"

The answer is , Adam is from the Earth itself....for when we die we "return" to the earth.



QUESTION: is it just humans that are from this Earth?
ANSWER: no, the Bible says that all the other animals including the great apes also share this one common source for life, and I quote - "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky

QUESTION:...so all life, both human and animal including the great apes are from the same single common source for all life?
ANSWER - Yes, we share the single source of this Earth...

QUESTION - according to the teachings of evolution, what is the source for all life?
ANSWER - The Earth.



QUESTION - But Alan, does not the listing of the name "Adam" mean we are not talking about many people, but rather the story is about one single person?
ANSWER- yes, the story of Genesis does read at first glance to be just about the life and fall of this one guy named Adam.....But while that is true, we also need to keep in the back of our minds the understanding that the word "Adam" also means something else too....it stands for an idea...the name represents a concept, a teaching.
This is why we can say that another totally different person in the Bible can be called Adam as well without contradiction.


QUESTION - But was not Adam made in a life-filled Garden of Eden?
ANSWER - No, humans were first created outside the protected garden, and then later taken and placed inside the garden...

QUESTION - do we know what the earth was like before humans were taken and placed into the protected garden?
ANSWER - we might, but its only a hint, for when Adam gets kicked out of the garden after his sin, the Lord talks about Adam experiencing sweat and struggles to eat, and thorns and thistles and death etc....such things are not experienced at any point inside the garden, yet are common outside the garden it seems.



QUESTION - but didnt you say that the Bible "teaches" evolution?
ANSWER - no, I never said that the bible "taught" evolution,,,,There are however a lot of things that the Bible does not bother to talk about yet are very true.
What Im saying is that if you stick close to the text of the Bible you dont find any 'anti-evolution" arguments in the story.

QUESTION - So there is nothing in the story of Genesis that is against Evolution?
ANSWER - no, nothing that appears in the story is anti-evolution...The story is different than the story we get from science, that is very true...but two things can say things in very different ways, and yet not be in disagreement.

For in the end, both Evolution and Genesis agree as to the source for life being the earth itself.

But books about faith and books about science are naturally going to look at the same events in earth's history from different angles, that is to be expected.
But while Genesis and Evolution speak in very different terms, they yet agree on a common things too.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will make it even simpler...

In the Bible story of Adam and Eve, where is Adam said to be from?

Not sure????

I will quote a verse that tells us where Adam is from
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

So I ask again, "Where was Adam from?"

The answer is , Adam is from the Earth itself....for when we die we "return" to the earth.



QUESTION: is it just humans that are from this Earth?
ANSWER: no, the Bible says that all the other animals including the great apes also share this one common source for life, and I quote - "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky

QUESTION:...so all life, both human and animal including the great apes are from the same single common source for all life?
ANSWER - Yes, we share the single source of this Earth...

QUESTION - according to the teachings of evolution, what is the source for all life?
ANSWER - The Earth.



QUESTION - But Alan, does not the listing of the name "Adam" mean we are not talking about many people, but rather the story is about one single person?
ANSWER- yes, the story of Genesis does read at first glance to be just about the life and fall of this one guy named Adam.....But while that is true, we also need to keep in the back of our minds the understanding that the word "Adam" also means something else too....it stands for an idea...the name represents a concept, a teaching.
This is why we can say that another totally different person in the Bible can be called Adam as well without contradiction.


QUESTION - But was not Adam made in a life-filled Garden of Eden?
ANSWER - No, humans were first created outside the protected garden, and then later taken and placed inside the garden...

QUESTION - do we know what the earth was like before humans were taken and placed into the protected garden?
ANSWER - we might, but its only a hint, for when Adam gets kicked out of the garden after his sin, the Lord talks about Adam experiencing sweat and struggles to eat, and thorns and thistles and death etc....such things are not experienced at any point inside the garden, yet are common outside the garden it seems.



QUESTION - but didnt you say that the Bible "teaches" evolution?
ANSWER - no, I never said that the bible "taught" evolution,,,,There are however a lot of things that the Bible does not bother to talk about yet are very true.
What Im saying is that if you stick close to the text of the Bible you dont find any 'anti-evolution" arguments in the story.

QUESTION - So there is nothing in the story of Genesis that is against Evolution?
ANSWER - no, nothing that appears in the story is anti-evolution...The story is different than the story we get from science, that is very true...but two things can say things in very different ways, and yet not be in disagreement.

For in the end, both Evolution and Genesis agree as to the source for life being the earth itself.

But books about faith and books about science are naturally going to look at the same events in earth's history from different angles, that is to be expected.
But while Genesis and Evolution speak in very different terms, they yet agree on a common things too.

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."
That is scripture, that's not sufficient for you? You would rather put the word of God side by side with Darwin's theory and say they are compatible?
All of creation is made of similar elements, God created all those elements, how you think that makes evolution compatible with Creation is
amazing.

[alanmolstad]

And the Lord God = the who of the story



formed = the word is talking about a work,,,an effort...to take what is already made and make a different thing



man = the thing that is made out of the things that were already made




of the dust of the ground = the very same source for life that we find in Evolution, so there is no disagreement here at all !




, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life = we share the same Nature of all other flesh that also has this same breath of life in them, for the Bible says that all the animals have this same breath of life.



; and man became a living being." = man is a creature with flesh that is the same as the other creatures




Nothing in the verse as written stands as an anti-evolution argument. Its written about 'god' and so it does read differently that a modern work of science, but what we find is that as both science and genesis look at the very same historical events in earth's history, that there is a common point where they meet....
and thus both Genesis and evolution can walk hand in hand.


So its not me that is doing this, but rather the text of the bible is showing us that it can walk "side by side" with science...

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

; and man became a living being." = man is a creature with flesh that is the same as the other creatures




Nothing in the verse as written stands as an anti-evolution argument. Its written about 'god' and so it does read differently that a modern work of science, but what we find is that as both science and genesis look at the very same historical events in earth's history, that there is a common point where they meet....
and thus both Genesis and evolution can walk hand in hand.


So its not me that is doing this, but rather the text of the bible is showing us that it can walk "side by side" with science...

Not true Alan, 1 Cor 15:39 " All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds."

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Not true Alan, 1 Cor 15:39 " All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds."

Yes it is true...
While we dont have feathers, nor fins...yet we share the same breath of life,,the same source, we all all made of the same stuff...no difference in the creation of our flesh

When God made man he used the same starting material that he used to make the great apes....and cows...and bugs...

[alanmolstad]

Now why is this important for us to understand about the common nature of life?

The reason is that one of the biggest errors that some people cant stop from believing is that "Man's body is different"

This comes about because when some people read, that man was made in the 'image" of God, they take this to mean that its talking about our bodies of flesh..

Once they make this understanding jump, then when they are confronted with the teachings of evolution they reject them out of hand because according to evolution we all are made of the same stuff, whereas how they understand the Bible man is different because our bodies are made in the image of God...

and thus any of my attempts to show them what the bible actually says will fail.


So I have learned that one of the first places to start undermining a person's false ideas about the Bible is get them to see how man can be made truly in the 'image of God' yet this is not at all talking about our bodies of flesh.


I show people that think our bodies are made in God's image that this is a false teaching of Mormonism.....not of the christian faith.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will make it even simpler...

In the Bible story of Adam and Eve, where is Adam said to be from?

Not sure????

I will quote a verse that tells us where Adam is from
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

So I ask again, "Where was Adam from?"

The answer is , Adam is from the Earth itself....for when we die we "return" to the earth.



QUESTION: is it just humans that are from this Earth?
ANSWER: no, the Bible says that all the other animals including the great apes also share this one common source for life, and I quote - "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky

QUESTION:...so all life, both human and animal including the great apes are from the same single common source for all life?
ANSWER - Yes, we share the single source of this Earth...

QUESTION - according to the teachings of evolution, what is the source for all life?
ANSWER - The Earth.



QUESTION - But Alan, does not the listing of the name "Adam" mean we are not talking about many people, but rather the story is about one single person?
ANSWER- yes, the story of Genesis does read at first glance to be just about the life and fall of this one guy named Adam.....But while that is true, we also need to keep in the back of our minds the understanding that the word "Adam" also means something else too....it stands for an idea...the name represents a concept, a teaching.
This is why we can say that another totally different person in the Bible can be called Adam as well without contradiction.


QUESTION - But was not Adam made in a life-filled Garden of Eden?
ANSWER - No, humans were first created outside the protected garden, and then later taken and placed inside the garden...

QUESTION - do we know what the earth was like before humans were taken and placed into the protected garden?
ANSWER - we might, but its only a hint, for when Adam gets kicked out of the garden after his sin, the Lord talks about Adam experiencing sweat and struggles to eat, and thorns and thistles and death etc....such things are not experienced at any point inside the garden, yet are common outside the garden it seems.



QUESTION - but didnt you say that the Bible "teaches" evolution?
ANSWER - no, I never said that the bible "taught" evolution,,,,There are however a lot of things that the Bible does not bother to talk about yet are very true.
What Im saying is that if you stick close to the text of the Bible you dont find any 'anti-evolution" arguments in the story.

QUESTION - So there is nothing in the story of Genesis that is against Evolution?
ANSWER - no, nothing that appears in the story is anti-evolution...The story is different than the story we get from science, that is very true...but two things can say things in very different ways, and yet not be in disagreement.

For in the end, both Evolution and Genesis agree as to the source for life being the earth itself.

But books about faith and books about science are naturally going to look at the same events in earth's history from different angles, that is to be expected.
But while Genesis and Evolution speak in very different terms, they yet agree on a common things too.

You quoted my post that we see above.
But you never really asked about anything that I wrote?

I took most of an hour to write that comment before I posted it onto the forum.
I did research to make sure I was right on the money with each claim.

I tried my best to make it easy to read, easy to grasp,,,and for the most part even spelled correctly...

So I put a lot of work into that post for you to read....

Thus I will ask, "Is there any part of that post that you would question?...do you see some part that you would like to see me support with the Bible?




Now Im not asking you to read it again and take notes...LOL

Im just saying that as you do read it, and when you come to something that you think I cant support with the Bible, then why not ask me to give you the verse that teaches what I claim the Bible says?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will make it even simpler...

In the Bible story of Adam and Eve, where is Adam said to be from?

Not sure????

I will quote a verse that tells us where Adam is from
"By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

So I ask again, "Where was Adam from?"

The answer is , Adam is from the Earth itself....for when we die we "return" to the earth.



QUESTION: is it just humans that are from this Earth?
ANSWER: no, the Bible says that all the other animals including the great apes also share this one common source for life, and I quote - "19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky

QUESTION:...so all life, both human and animal including the great apes are from the same single common source for all life?
ANSWER - Yes, we share the single source of this Earth...

QUESTION - according to the teachings of evolution, what is the source for all life?
ANSWER - The Earth.



QUESTION - But Alan, does not the listing of the name "Adam" mean we are not talking about many people, but rather the story is about one single person?
ANSWER- yes, the story of Genesis does read at first glance to be just about the life and fall of this one guy named Adam.....But while that is true, we also need to keep in the back of our minds the understanding that the word "Adam" also means something else too....it stands for an idea...the name represents a concept, a teaching.
This is why we can say that another totally different person in the Bible can be called Adam as well without contradiction.


QUESTION - But was not Adam made in a life-filled Garden of Eden?
ANSWER - No, humans were first created outside the protected garden, and then later taken and placed inside the garden...

QUESTION - do we know what the earth was like before humans were taken and placed into the protected garden?
ANSWER - we might, but its only a hint, for when Adam gets kicked out of the garden after his sin, the Lord talks about Adam experiencing sweat and struggles to eat, and thorns and thistles and death etc....such things are not experienced at any point inside the garden, yet are common outside the garden it seems.



QUESTION - but didnt you say that the Bible "teaches" evolution?
ANSWER - no, I never said that the bible "taught" evolution,,,,There are however a lot of things that the Bible does not bother to talk about yet are very true.
What Im saying is that if you stick close to the text of the Bible you dont find any 'anti-evolution" arguments in the story.

QUESTION - So there is nothing in the story of Genesis that is against Evolution?
ANSWER - no, nothing that appears in the story is anti-evolution...The story is different than the story we get from science, that is very true...but two things can say things in very different ways, and yet not be in disagreement.

For in the end, both Evolution and Genesis agree as to the source for life being the earth itself.

But books about faith and books about science are naturally going to look at the same events in earth's history from different angles, that is to be expected.
But while Genesis and Evolution speak in very different terms, they yet agree on a common things too.

as I asked...is there any part of this that you would like to see where I get that in the Bible?