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Thread: Evolution does not stand up to biblical scrutiny

  1. #26
    alanmolstad
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    thus......when I ask the question about what the Bible says.....you can learn what side of this question you are on by your answer..

    Willyou read the Text and believe it as written?

    or -

    Willyou try to ignore what the Bible says in black and white, and try also to change the topic?





    If you can answer my question about what the Bible says at Gen 1:1 then you are on the Lord's side.....you trust the bible .

    But if you have to twist out of answering?.....You are on the side of the YEC , the side of "men's thinking"...and false ideas.





    So I ask then- "At Genesis 1:1 what does the Bible list as the very first thing God created In the beginning?"

  2. #27
    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    Atheists believe in Evolution Alan because that is where evolution leads them.
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

  3. #28
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    or -

    Will you try to ignore what the Bible says in black and white, and try also to change the topic?




    You have your answer....
    your actions speak ...

  4. #29
    alanmolstad
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    Walter martin always allowed for the fact that the earth is old.....millions and billions of years old...

    You may have heard of Ken Samples who used to cover for Walter on the Bible Answer Man show.....would you be interested in learning what Mr Samples thinks of the topic of the Old Earth?....and how it fits with the story of Genesis?

  5. #30
    alanmolstad
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    Walter martin always allowed for the fact that the earth is old.....millions and billions of years old...

    You may have heard of Ken Samples who used to cover for Walter on the Bible Answer Man show.....would you be interested in learning what Mr Samples thinks of the topic of the Old Earth?....and how it fits with the story of Genesis?

  6. #31
    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post

    You may have heard of Ken Samples who used to cover for Walter on the Bible Answer Man show.....would you be interested in learning what Mr Samples thinks of the topic of the Old Earth?....and how it fits with the story of Genesis?
    Sure, sounds good.
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

  7. #32
    alanmolstad
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    Ken Samples: “I think the age of the earth and universe is a very important scientific and apologetics topic. I also think it is quite appropriate for Christians to engage in debates and dialogues concerning these controversial science-faith issues. Unfortunately, this has become a very contentious topic for many Christians. Some believers seem to struggle to treat the people with whom they differ over this issue with appropriate respect and grace.

    Personally, I’m persuaded that science overwhelmingly supports the old-earth creationist position and that the position is quite compatible with a viable interpretation of Scripture.

    https://chab123.wordpress.com/2013/0...h-ken-samples/

  8. #33
    alanmolstad
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    so...Ken Samples, (the guy I liked the best of all the people that would cover for walter martin on his Bible Answer Man show), holds to a "Old earth Creationist"position.

    But what is that position?

    Lets look it up!

  9. #34
    alanmolstad
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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Earth_creationism


    I believe that this also was the basic position that was shared also by Walter Martin....
    Walter had to answer the common questions about Genesis all the time on his radio show,and in his answers Walter always allowed for the millions and billions of years of history...

    Walter was not afraid that the earth was very, very old....and that creatures lived and died for millions and millions of years before the rise of modern man.

    Now when we checked on what "Old Earth Creationism" means, what we find is that its a large set of different understandings that have some connections with each other...

    and also when we read about what is known as OEC we see the heading of "Theistic evolution".

  10. #35
    alanmolstad
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    so Theistic evolution (what I believe) is connected closely with Old Earth Creationism (what Ken Samples believes) and Ken's position is what Walter Martin taught in his answers on the show....


    It's all basically the same idea.

    That idea is that the earth is here because god created it,and that life is here because god created it,and that nothing in the story of Genesis stands against science and/or evolution....That the two works (evolution and Genesis)can work to help us understand this creation...

  11. #36
    alanmolstad
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    so what Im showing here is that the Theistic evolution position is a very well respected position within the Christian church.

    Im also showing that many of the very preachers within the church that are the most respected ( like Martin and Samples) share with me the idea that the earth is very old.

    This is why it is so silly for people to react sometimes the way they do here...Just because a person believes that the earth is old does not mean that the "sky is falling"...

  12. #37
    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    I understand what you are saying. I would still try to distance myself from the term evolution though.
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

  13. #38
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by jude1:3 View Post
    I understand what you are saying. I would still try to distance myself from the term evolution though.
    As Walter martin used to say when answering questions about Evolution , "What difference does it make?..Whether life on the earth was created in 6 days, or whether it evolved in a billion years, the point is that God created that life"


    I do not defend evolution, nor do I teach it...
    But what I do do is teach that there is nothing in the Bible that stands against evolution, nor are there any anti-evolution arguments in the genesis story.
    And that both evolution and genesis can work hand in hand to offer the student of the Bible a well-rounded understanding of early earth history.

    In my view, evolution is just a tool of the Lord...its no more evil than air ,or rain, or gravity, or any of the natural laws that are in the world around us....
    and as such it should be respected as a tool of the Lord's hands.

  14. #39
    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    In my view, evolution is just a tool of the Lord...its no more evil than air ,or rain, or gravity, or any of the natural laws that are in the world around us....
    and as such it should be respected as a tool of the Lord's hands.
    *Sigh* A tool of The Lord would never promote atheism and racism. The theory of evolution was created by evil unsaved and unbelieving men to promote disbelief.
    Last edited by jude1:3; 08-06-2016 at 04:53 PM.
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

  15. #40
    alanmolstad
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    god made water too, and men can use water for good or evil.....but shall we blame the water?

    Evolution is a natural part of God's creation... It's no more evil that rain or sunshine.

    men can use the things that are made for good or evil it is true, the Bible was written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, yet it has been used by men to do many people great harm....

    shall we blame God?...

    shall we blame the Bible?

  16. #41
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    As Walter martin used to say when answering questions about Evolution , "What difference does it make?..Whether life on the earth was created in 6 days, or whether it evolved in a billion years, the point is that God created that life"


    I do not defend evolution, nor do I teach it...
    .
    Evolution is, ,
    Gasp, Quick, someone hand me something to cover the nakedness. Really chief, you say “I don’t teach” but do. You say you don’t, but after your denials of instruction in it, deny that denial by informing the reader on evolution. You say you don’t, but through hoodwinking techniques hopes the reader will buy it? Ridiculous.

    Yet, an interesting quote you’ve brought to bare, as it does exactly what Jude1:3 suggests and is no more a comment towards a tool of evolution than anyone could possibly support. To suggest that is an inflammatory remark on his words. You can take a slice of wording and make it say about anything you want to, but until an author (Mr. Martin) comes out with an extensive and repeat comment that supports an issue, even within the space of a paragraph, the effort to extract becomes obvious. I'm honestly sorry if that is too blunt, but I'm afraid that is too much to swallow unless you have some more.

  17. #42
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    ..... I'm honestly sorry if that is too blunt,
    Oh not at all.
    As Ive told you before, I dont really understand anything you post.

    In fact, most of the time when I attempt to read something you have written I find myself comparing reading your words to listening to my aquarium pump.....I know its making noise but it dont really involve me personally....

    and on the topic of how people post on this issue-


    Mostly I see that the difference in how I post and how the people that disagree with me post is this:
    When I post on this topic I try to stick to the text of the Bible and show what the text says in black and white, and how it works and what it means and how this all teaches us many important things.

    When the other guys post they mostly just insult me.....



    thats the difference.

  18. #43
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Oh not at all.
    As Ive told you before, I dont really understand anything you post.

    In fact, most of the time when I attempt to read something you have written I find myself comparing reading your words to listening to my aquarium pump.....I know its making noise but it dont really involve me personally....

    and on the topic of how people post on this issue-

    Mostly I see that the difference in how I post and how the people that disagree with me post is this:
    When I post on this topic I try to stick to the text of the Bible and show what the text says in black and white, and how it works and what it means and how this all teaches us many important things.

    When the other guys post they mostly just insult me.....

    thats the difference.
    Okay, so when you say you “don’t teach evolution”, it isn’t to be taken at face-value. What you want the reader to know is that you don’t add random thought on evolution, but teach evolution as taken from the word of God. Is that what you are saying?

  19. #44
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    Okay, so when you say you “don’t teach evolution”, it isn’t to be taken at face-value. What you want the reader to know is that you don’t add random thought on evolution, but teach evolution as taken from the word of God. Is that what you are saying?
    I will tell you a little story about what I mean when I say, "I don't teach or defend evolution"



    Many, many years ago...

    I was locked in an argument with a bunch of guys who were on this forum attacking my views on Genesis, and one of them told me about a different forum where they invited me to go check out as they all were members there too, and they wanted me to go there and post.

    So I clecked on their link and went to visit and register at that forum.

    I soon discovered that it was true, all these guys did post a lot more there, and in fact I soon discovered that they had a few topics in their GENESIS/EVOLUTION section of that forum that were named after me personally, and were attacking me in a very personal manner.

    (Thus the reason I dont ever allow anyone to name a topic here at someone by personal name)

    Well it's impossible to see that going on and not feel the need to respond, and so I started to post and soon discovered that the MODs of that site were really, really REALLY pro-Young Earth Creationist!

    The MODs challenged me to enter into a formal 'debate' on their forum at a special "Debate section" where only I and one other person would be allowed to post, and all other guests would be only able to post in a lower "comments section"

    I told the MOD that Im not trained in the art of the forum debate, and I just know how to post on forums in a more general friendly manner .

    The MOD told me in a private message that if I turned down the offer of a debate, that this too would be something that would be used against me from now on on that site, and people would connect me with being unable to debate my views when challenged.

    So feeling boxed-in I agreed to do a formal debate on their site...

    Then over the next week we had a mini-debate over the name of this future debate i would be in....they wanted it to be "Genesis vs Evolution", but I told the MOD over and over that I dont debate evolution because Im only a simple Bible student and I dont teach science at a school.

    The MOD finally agreed to list the ***le of our debate under the name something like "What does Genesis teach?" or something like that.

    I wanted everyone to understand at the time that I was not there to defend evolution, nor would I even much speak on that topic.
    I wanted everyone at the start to understand that my views are centered on the text of the bible alone.

    And so the formal debate was announced, as well as the other person who would be up against me.

    we were each told the rules.

    We would get like 1/2 a page of room each time we posted to make our point, and we also were given 24 hours to post our comment before it was the other person's turn.

    So we began.

    I introduce myself....and start with the text at Genesis 1:1 .
    I spend my first post dealing with the general introduction of what the bibe says at Gen 1:1 and how this leads to the next set of verses.

    Then it was the other guy's turn....

    He attacked the personal life of Darwin.

    Then it was my turn again, and I build on my first post and start to deal with the next verse in the Bible that talks about the "Let there be light".
    I try to show from the Text what is going on in this verse and how its connected to later sections that we will be soon dealing with as we go along.

    Now it was the other guys turn again....

    He attacked me personally , and only dealt with the fact that I had totally ignored what he had said about the personal life of Darwin.
    he then went on to attack me on the issue of how many people are put to death in the USSR?

    Now it was my turn again, and I continued building my case about what the bible says on the topic of this "light"and I went to the next verse of the Bible were we were now dealing with the issues that appear in that verse.


    At about this point and after I had posted what would turn out to be only my 3rd or 4th post in the debate the MODs locked it down and i got sent a bunch of warnings from the MOD about the way i was not responding to the other guy's attacks on Darwin and Evolution.
    I was warned that unless I started to defend evolution I would be locked-out of the debate and banned from the site until I agreed to defend evolution.

    Needless to say, the debate was over.

    I was not banned from the site and I returned to the open forum , but soon learned why they all had wanted me to defend evolution so badly?

    Thats all they had.....
    All their YEC books, tapes, and websites really only are a bunch of the same "Anti-Evolution" **** that keeps getting p***ed around over and over.
    They dont really have much BIBLE-centered information there.

    The guys who wanted me to debate evolution so much needed me to do that because that is all they got.
    They really were totally unprepared to open their Bibles to see what it says in black and white.

    and when i started to get people to open their bible and read what it says for themselves, thats when i got in yet more trouble with the MODs.

    The MODs were fine with me around so long as I was there to defend evolution , but the moment they discovered i was there to teach what the Bible says they banned me.






    so,,,,,,,back to your question to me today "Is that what you are saying?"

    My answer is this - I dont teach evolution because Im not a science teacher.
    I dont defend evolution because as a Bible Student I have only the area of "Bible Stuff" that I can speak on and defend with any real confidence.

    Bible stuff i can deal with....Bible stuff I know.....Bible stuff i can defend.....Bible stuff i can teach.



    Thus, I stuck closely to the text of the Bible as written in Genesis.


    That is why the YEC teachers have such a hard time dealing with what Im saying, its because i stick to what the text actually says, whereas the YEC teachings are all about what the YEC teachers wished the bible said.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-08-2016 at 04:18 AM.

  20. #45
    alanmolstad
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    so MichaellS, let me also take this time to share with you the common way it goes whenever i try to talk to a true YEC believer about what the Bible really says in Genesis....


    It mostly goes like this -

    ALAN - "What does the bible say God created first In the beginning?"

    Other Guy - "Darwin was a sex pervert"



    Alan - "In the Bible, what is the meaning to the term "Heavens"?

    Other Guy "I feel sorry for you and your sex pervert Darwin"



    Alan - "Do you notice how the Bible text does not actually say the "Sun" was created on the 4th day?"

    Other guy - "Evolution is evil, and I feel sorry for you Alan"




    ect, etc, etc...

  21. #46
    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I will tell you a little story about what I mean when I say, "I don't teach or defend evolution"



    Many, many years ago...

    I was locked in an argument with a bunch of guys who were on this forum attacking my views on Genesis, and one of them told me about a different forum where they invited me to go check out as they all were members there too, and they wanted me to go there and post.

    So I clecked on their link and went to visit and register at that forum.

    I soon discovered that it was true, all these guys did post a lot more there, and in fact I soon discovered that they had a few topics in their GENESIS/EVOLUTION section of that forum that were named after me personally, and were attacking me in a very personal manner.

    (Thus the reason I dont ever allow anyone to name a topic here at someone by personal name)

    Well it's impossible to see that going on and not feel the need to respond, and so I started to post and soon discovered that the MODs of that site were really, really REALLY pro-Young Earth Creationist!

    The MODs challenged me to enter into a formal 'debate' on their forum at a special "Debate section" where only I and one other person would be allowed to post, and all other guests would be only able to post in a lower "comments section"

    I told the MOD that Im not trained in the art of the forum debate, and I just know how to post on forums in a more general friendly manner .

    The MOD told me in a private message that if I turned down the offer of a debate, that this too would be something that would be used against me from now on on that site, and people would connect me with being unable to debate my views when challenged.

    So feeling boxed-in I agreed to do a formal debate on their site...

    Then over the next week we had a mini-debate over the name of this future debate i would be in....they wanted it to be "Genesis vs Evolution", but I told the MOD over and over that I dont debate evolution because Im only a simple Bible student and I dont teach science at a school.

    The MOD finally agreed to list the ***le of our debate under the name something like "What does Genesis teach?" or something like that.

    I wanted everyone to understand at the time that I was not there to defend evolution, nor would I even much speak on that topic.
    I wanted everyone at the start to understand that my views are centered on the text of the bible alone.

    And so the formal debate was announced, as well as the other person who would be up against me.

    we were each told the rules.

    We would get like 1/2 a page of room each time we posted to make our point, and we also were given 24 hours to post our comment before it was the other person's turn.

    So we began.

    I introduce myself....and start with the text at Genesis 1:1 .
    I spend my first post dealing with the general introduction of what the bibe says at Gen 1:1 and how this leads to the next set of verses.

    Then it was the other guy's turn....

    He attacked the personal life of Darwin.

    Then it was my turn again, and I build on my first post and start to deal with the next verse in the Bible that talks about the "Let there be light".
    I try to show from the Text what is going on in this verse and how its connected to later sections that we will be soon dealing with as we go along.

    Now it was the other guys turn again....

    He attacked me personally , and only dealt with the fact that I had totally ignored what he had said about the personal life of Darwin.
    he then went on to attack me on the issue of how many people are put to death in the USSR?

    Now it was my turn again, and I continued building my case about what the bible says on the topic of this "light"and I went to the next verse of the Bible were we were now dealing with the issues that appear in that verse.


    At about this point and after I had posted what would turn out to be only my 3rd or 4th post in the debate the MODs locked it down and i got sent a bunch of warnings from the MOD about the way i was not responding to the other guy's attacks on Darwin and Evolution.
    I was warned that unless I started to defend evolution I would be locked-out of the debate and banned from the site until I agreed to defend evolution.

    Needless to say, the debate was over.

    I was not banned from the site and I returned to the open forum , but soon learned why they all had wanted me to defend evolution so badly?

    Thats all they had.....
    All their YEC books, tapes, and websites really only are a bunch of the same "Anti-Evolution" **** that keeps getting p***ed around over and over.
    They dont really have much BIBLE-centered information there.

    The guys who wanted me to debate evolution so much needed me to do that because that is all they got.
    They really were totally unprepared to open their Bibles to see what it says in black and white.

    and when i started to get people to open their bible and read what it says for themselves, thats when i got in yet more trouble with the MODs.

    The MODs were fine with me around so long as I was there to defend evolution , but the moment they discovered i was there to teach what the Bible says they banned me.






    so,,,,,,,back to your question to me today "Is that what you are saying?"

    My answer is this - I dont teach evolution because Im not a science teacher.
    I dont defend evolution because as a Bible Student I have only the area of "Bible Stuff" that I can speak on and defend with any real confidence.

    Bible stuff i can deal with....Bible stuff I know.....Bible stuff i can defend.....Bible stuff i can teach.



    Thus, I stuck closely to the text of the Bible as written in Genesis.


    That is why the YEC teachers have such a hard time dealing with what Im saying, its because i stick to what the text actually says, whereas the YEC teachings are all about what the YEC teachers wished the bible said.



    [img]http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_***ets/1167769/jags.gif[/img]



    You believe the lie that we are still in the 7th day and that it hasn't p***ed yet. It is a heresy and hopefully people will see right through the heresy. Just come out and say plainly that is what you believe.
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

  22. #47
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    so MichaellS, let me also take this time to share with you the common way it goes whenever i try to talk to a true YEC believer about what the Bible really says in Genesis....


    It mostly goes like this -

    ALAN - "What does the bible say God created first In the beginning?"

    Other Guy - "Darwin was a sex pervert"



    Alan - "In the Bible, what is the meaning to the term "Heavens"?

    Other Guy "I feel sorry for you and your sex pervert Darwin"



    Alan - "Do you notice how the Bible text does not actually say the "Sun" was created on the 4th day?"

    Other guy - "Evolution is evil, and I feel sorry for you Alan"




    ect, etc, etc...
    Alan, evolution would not have entered you mind if not for Darwin and those who
    jumped on that band wagon. The heart of the theory is long periods of time, random chance and unrepeatable upward mutations.

    God’s works are not random and He is behind every little detail. There are no events so small that he does not rule for his purposes. “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?” Jesus said, “And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.” Matthew 10:29–30

  23. #48
    alanmolstad
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    disciple...thanks for answering my posts...thats getting more and more rare around here, and I wish to support the people that do take the time to respond to my comments, and so I will give you my answer...

    and because you posted two paragraphs i will respond with a separate comment to each to show you that I did read your words and took the time to respond to them as best I could.

    I also like the fact that you do post your comments in separate paragraphs, as that seems to be a "lost art" around here at times with a lot of posters...







    But first...I want to point something out to you and anyone who might read this over the next few years....



    (drop down to next post)
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-08-2016 at 05:47 PM.

  24. #49
    alanmolstad
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    If anyone reading this have been following along and have been reading my posts, you have come to be familiar with the idea that "Alan does not teach nor defend Evolution"

    Over and over I have to keep telling people this because they always want to drag me into a debate over evolution because,thats all the YEC books got within them, Just a bunch of Anti-evolution arguments.


    And on this topic I have had to remind people a few times now that I simply dont defend nor teach evolution....Im not a science teacher and so if they got a question about science they better go find someone qualified to answer it, and that is not me!


    So it should be clear I will not get sucked into defending evolution in any way, shape,or form.
    I teach what the Bible says, PERIOD.



    and yet in the post I have a copy of within this post you once again see an attack made against evolution????

    Once again there is an attempt made to get me to debate the merits of evolution.....LOL... ....and once again it fails...



    I do no teach nor defend evolution....



    (Im not sure how else I can say this before it starts to sink in?)






    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Alan, evolution would not have entered you mind if not for Darwin and those who
    jumped on that band wagon. The heart of the theory is long periods of time, random chance and unrepeatable upward mutations.

    God’s works are not random and He is behind every little detail. There are no events so small that he does not rule for his purposes. “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?” Jesus said, “And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.” Matthew 10:29–30

  25. #50
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Alan, evolution would not have entered you mind if not for Darwin and those who
    jumped on that band wagon. The heart of the theory is long periods of time, random chance and unrepeatable upward mutations.
    The idea that the "Days"of Genesis speak to us about a vast unknown or even unlimited amount of time goes back to the very start of the Christian church.

    I have already posted on one of these topics a list of the well-known and well-respected early Christian writers that shared my views on this issue.

    If you doubt this, or have forgotten what i have already taken the time to list for you guys, I would be happy to list the information again if needed....

    But you can google it as well as I can,




    One thing you may have noticed at all the YEC websites you use, that they never really claim that the idea that the "days" of genesis speak to long amounts of times is a "new"idea....

    The YEC websites cant say the idea of an "Old Earth"is a modern teaching of the christian church, because they know full well that this idea stems back to the dawn of the Christian church.

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