Evolution does not stand up to biblical scrutiny

[alanmolstad]

What's the first thing that the bible listed that God created in the beginning? ...

You will either answer based on the text or you will try to dodge around what you see clearly the text says.

What will you do?

[jude1:3]

How many people have come to believe in The Lord Jesus Christ through Evolution compared to being converted to atheism through evolution ?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

What's the first thing that the bible listed that God created in the beginning? ...

and the answer is- "In the beginning, God Created the HEAVENS and the EARTH"





So the Bible lists the "Heavens"as the very first thing God created.
Thats not my opinion, thats what the Text says.
Some YEC teachers might not like it, but thats too bad, the Text says what the Text says.....

I just read it and believe it.

[alanmolstad]

now why dont YEC teachers like to answer my question asked above about the first things God created in the story?.....The ANSWER is- that they dont like what the Bible says because it totally will mess up what they teach about Young Earth Creationism.

Its that simple....
They dont like what the Bible teaches so that dont answer my questions about that topic.

What will they do when I ask them what the Bible says?....The try to change the topic...they bring up stuff not connected to my question in the hope of getting off the topic of what the Bible teaches....

[jude1:3]

You shouldn't call it evolution. You should call it YEC vs Really Old Earth or something else because honestly evolution only leads to atheism.

[alanmolstad]

thus......when I ask the question about what the Bible says.....you can learn what side of this question you are on by your answer..

Willyou read the Text and believe it as written?

or -

Willyou try to ignore what the Bible says in black and white, and try also to change the topic?





If you can answer my question about what the Bible says at Gen 1:1 then you are on the Lord's side.....you trust the bible .

But if you have to twist out of answering?.....You are on the side of the YEC , the side of "men's thinking"...and false ideas.





So I ask then- "At Genesis 1:1 what does the Bible list as the very first thing God created In the beginning?"

[jude1:3]

Atheists believe in Evolution Alan because that is where evolution leads them.

[alanmolstad]

Walter martin always allowed for the fact that the earth is old.....millions and billions of years old...

You may have heard of Ken Samples who used to cover for Walter on the Bible Answer Man show.....would you be interested in learning what Mr Samples thinks of the topic of the Old Earth?....and how it fits with the story of Genesis?

[jude1:3]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

You may have heard of Ken Samples who used to cover for Walter on the Bible Answer Man show.....would you be interested in learning what Mr Samples thinks of the topic of the Old Earth?....and how it fits with the story of Genesis?

Sure, sounds good.

[alanmolstad]

Ken Samples: “I think the age of the earth and universe is a very important scientific and apologetics topic. I also think it is quite appropriate for Christians to engage in debates and dialogues concerning these controversial science-faith issues. Unfortunately, this has become a very contentious topic for many Christians. Some believers seem to struggle to treat the people with whom they differ over this issue with appropriate respect and grace.

Personally, I’m persuaded that science overwhelmingly supports the old-earth creationist position and that the position is quite compatible with a viable interpretation of Scripture.

https://chab123.wordpress.com/2013/0...h-ken-samples/

[alanmolstad]

so...Ken Samples, (the guy I liked the best of all the people that would cover for walter martin on his Bible Answer Man show), holds to a "Old earth Creationist"position.

But what is that position?

Lets look it up!

[alanmolstad]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Earth_creationism


I believe that this also was the basic position that was shared also by Walter Martin....
Walter had to answer the common questions about Genesis all the time on his radio show,and in his answers Walter always allowed for the millions and billions of years of history...

Walter was not afraid that the earth was very, very old....and that creatures lived and died for millions and millions of years before the rise of modern man.

Now when we checked on what "Old Earth Creationism" means, what we find is that its a large set of different understandings that have some connections with each other...

and also when we read about what is known as OEC we see the heading of "Theistic evolution".

[alanmolstad]

so Theistic evolution (what I believe) is connected closely with Old Earth Creationism (what Ken Samples believes) and Ken's position is what Walter Martin taught in his answers on the show....


It's all basically the same idea.

That idea is that the earth is here because god created it,and that life is here because god created it,and that nothing in the story of Genesis stands against science and/or evolution....That the two works (evolution and Genesis)can work to help us understand this creation...

[alanmolstad]

so what Im showing here is that the Theistic evolution position is a very well respected position within the Christian church.

Im also showing that many of the very preachers within the church that are the most respected ( like Martin and Samples) share with me the idea that the earth is very old.

This is why it is so silly for people to react sometimes the way they do here...Just because a person believes that the earth is old does not mean that the "sky is falling"...

[jude1:3]

I understand what you are saying. I would still try to distance myself from the term evolution though.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by jude1:3

I understand what you are saying. I would still try to distance myself from the term evolution though.

As Walter martin used to say when answering questions about Evolution , "What difference does it make?..Whether life on the earth was created in 6 days, or whether it evolved in a billion years, the point is that God created that life"


I do not defend evolution, nor do I teach it...
But what I do do is teach that there is nothing in the Bible that stands against evolution, nor are there any anti-evolution arguments in the genesis story.
And that both evolution and genesis can work hand in hand to offer the student of the Bible a well-rounded understanding of early earth history.

In my view, evolution is just a tool of the Lord...its no more evil than air ,or rain, or gravity, or any of the natural laws that are in the world around us....
and as such it should be respected as a tool of the Lord's hands.

[disciple]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

so Theistic evolution (what I believe) is connected closely with Old Earth Creationism (what Ken Samples believes) and Ken's position is what Walter Martin taught in his answers on the show....


It's all basically the same idea.

That idea is that the earth is here because god created it,and that life is here because god created it,and that nothing in the story of Genesis stands against science and/or evolution....That the two works (evolution and Genesis)can work to help us understand this creation...

Alan, show us one verse in the bible that says man evolved from an ape. Show us one verse that will make us believe
that our Lord Jesus had an ancestor that was an ape.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Alan, show us one verse in the bible that says man evolved from an ape. Show us one verse that will make us believe
that our Lord Jesus had an ancestor that was an ape.

that seems like an evolution question?

Now I know I must be mistaken about that, after all I have said over and over that I do not teach nor defend evolution...so I trust you did not just ask me one correct?

For a more clear understanding of my views, see post #44 of this topic.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by disciple

Alan, show us one verse in the bible that says man evolved from an ape. Show us one verse that will make us believe
that our Lord Jesus had an ancestor that was an ape.

I will tell you about a conversation I had:


Many years ago I was talking to a guy I knew ,and I also knew that he was a believer in the whole Young Earth Creationism stuff.
He also asked me to find a verse that teaches that "Man came from ape"

He used to smile when he asked me that question, because he knew enough about the Bible to know that there is no single verse that clearly teaches anything much about ape evolution...let alone that man evolved from one.

But rather than attempting to "teach"my friend anything,I went about this a different way...


I asked my friend, "According to what you know about the teachings of evolution, you believe it teaches that man came from ape?"
"Yes"was his answer.

"But what came before that? I asked.
"What do you mean?" was his response.

"I mean what came before the ape that you keep talking about according to evolution, or does evolution teach that apes just suddenly appeared on the earth out of thin air?"

He considered his answer, then spoke, "Well sure evolution teaches that there was something before the apes, but regardless its not what the Bible teaches."


I continued, "We will get to what the Bible teaches in a moment, but first I want to understand what you mean by evolution and how you understand what it's saying."

I let this sink in for a moment, then went on and asked him , "So you just said that according to evolution that there were earlier life forms before the apes, and so what was one of them?"

My friend answered, "I think that if you trace back life according to evolution, then you find that all the mammals are related, and then they are connected to fish,and then if you go back far enough in the way evolution looks at things we all started out as bacteria or something like that!"


I then press him and ask, "So there was nothing before the bacteria then?...are we to believe that evolution teaches that bacteria suddenly "popped" into being?...that evolution stops there?"

This caused my friend to pause a moment as he did not really know what to say to me I think, but then he added, "My guess is that before that you would be talking about inorganic things, different minerals and amino acids and organic compounds."


"Good answer" I told my friend. "And whats important about them is that what we are talking about is that according to the teachings of evolution , that you reject, we find that the very building blocks of all life come from this earth itself"

My friend responds "Yes, so what? Thats still very different than what the Bible teaches"


"Is it?" I ask, "Is it all that different than what the Bible teaches?"


I then opened my bible to the story of Genesis and I read to him where life on the earth is said to be from, where life is sourced from in the story.
"Let me read this to you, Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr*** Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature. Genesis 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree Genesis 2:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken"




I paused for effect.....

Then said the following-

"What we read in the Bible is not the cl***ic textbook understanding of the teachings of evolution. But on the other hand, what the bible does say about where life is from is in agreement with where we just said evolution teaches all life is from. So while they may not say things in the very same way or use the very same words, yet you cant deny that two works of Genesis and Evolution do manage to walk hand-in-hand with each other at the end of the day to get to the same place."

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I will tell you about a conversation I had:


Many years ago I was talking to a guy I knew ,and I also knew that he was a believer in the whole Young Earth Creationism stuff.
He also asked me to find a verse that teaches that "Man came from ape"

He used to smile when he asked me that question, because he knew enough about the Bible to know that there is no single verse that clearly teaches anything much about ape evolution...let alone that man evolved from one.

But rather than attempting to "teach"my friend anything,I went about this a different way...


I asked my friend, "According to what you know about the teachings of evolution, you believe it teaches that man came from ape?"
"Yes"was his answer.

"But what came before that? I asked.
"What do you mean?" was his response.

"I mean what came before the ape that you keep talking about according to evolution, or does evolution teach that apes just suddenly appeared on the earth out of thin air?"

He considered his answer, then spoke, "Well sure evolution teaches that there was something before the apes, but regardless its not what the Bible teaches."


I continued, "We will get to what the Bible teaches in a moment, but first I want to understand what you mean by evolution and how you understand what it's saying."

I let this sink in for a moment, then went on and asked him , "So you just said that according to evolution that there were earlier life forms before the apes, and so what was one of them?"

My friend answered, "I think that if you trace back life according to evolution, then you find that all the mammals are related, and then they are connected to fish,and then if you go back far enough in the way evolution looks at things we all started out as bacteria or something like that!"


I then press him and ask, "So there was nothing before the bacteria then?...are we to believe that evolution teaches that bacteria suddenly "popped" into being?...that evolution stops there?"

This caused my friend to pause a moment as he did not really know what to say to me I think, but then he added, "My guess is that before that you would be talking about inorganic things, different minerals and amino acids and organic compounds."


"Good answer" I told my friend. "And whats important about them is that what we are talking about is that according to the teachings of evolution , that you reject, we find that the very building blocks of all life come from this earth itself"

My friend responds "Yes, so what? Thats still very different than what the Bible teaches"


"Is it?" I ask, "Is it all that different than what the Bible teaches?"


I then opened my bible to the story of Genesis and I read to him where life on the earth is said to be from, where life is sourced from in the story.
"Let me read this to you, Genesis 1:11 "And God said, Let the earth bring forth gr*** Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature. Genesis 2:9 9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree Genesis 2:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken"




I paused for effect.....

Then said the following-

"What we read in the Bible is not the cl***ic textbook understanding of the teachings of evolution. But on the other hand, what the bible does say about where life is from is in agreement with where we just said evolution teaches all life is from. So while they may not say things in the very same way or use the very same words, yet you cant deny that two works of Genesis and Evolution do manage to walk hand-in-hand with each other at the end of the day to get to the same place."

No bible quoted, hello? Disciple asked for scripture. What the thread is to be concerned with is Bible scrutiny, not a promotional platform.

Your comment is void from the purpose of the thread.

[alanmolstad]

Walter martin always allowed for the fact that the earth is old.....millions and billions of years old...

You may have heard of Ken Samples who used to cover for Walter on the Bible Answer Man show.....would you be interested in learning what Mr Samples thinks of the topic of the Old Earth?....and how it fits with the story of Genesis?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

or -

Will you try to ignore what the Bible says in black and white, and try also to change the topic?

You have your answer....
your actions speak ...

[MichaellS]

Here you go again.

Get a grip on yourself will ya, there is only one person in contention (“bickering”) with the will of God here.

Why? Because, you can’t even bring yourself to say it. The will of God is like oil-n-water to you. Hold it up and Alan just slips right on by. Why? Because you can’t stand FULL Biblical scrutiny. Get that? FULL BIBLICAL SCRUTINY.Why? Because your ***ertions are corrected by the word of God.

What corrections? Well, I am so glad you asked. Let’s review what the Spirit’s simplicity has inspired other to say, , ,

Originally Posted by disciple

Creation occurred in six literal, consecutive days. (Gen 1, Ex 20:11) The Hebrew word for day, yom, always means literal, consecutive days when modified by a plural number. Yom was defined as a literal day when it was first used. (Gen 1:4,5) Each creation day had only one “evening and morning.”

On the fourth creation day, the Sun, Moon, and stars were made. (Gen 1:14–19) If the word “day” in Genesis 1:14 means a long period, what do the words “year” or “night” mean in those verses?

To survive, plants need the Sun and animals—especially insects. All were created within three literal days of each other. (Gen 1:11–23) Had it taken much longer, plants could not have survived. (Gen 1:5, 8, 13, 19, 23, 31)

If evolution happened, then death was widespread before man evolved. But if death preceded man and was not a result of Adam’s sin, then sin is not the cause of death—so we do not need a Savior.

Jesus always spoke the truth; in fact, He said He was the truth (Jn 14:6), and scripture is the truth (Jn 17:17). Certainly, Jesus knew the truth, because He was there in the beginning, and all things came into being through Him. (Jn 1:3) To say that Jesus knew the Bible contained false history, but didn’t want to tell people the truth, belies who Jesus was. He didn’t hide false ideas; He exposed them. He called the Old Testament writers, including Moses, who compiled Genesis 1–11, prophets. (Jn 5:46–47) By definition, prophets, when speaking God’s message, always spoke the truth. False prophets were stoned to death.

Jesus was not constrained by culture, tradition, science, or concern of misunderstandings (Mt 5:1–12, Jn 6:53). Nor did He avoid subjects that were hard for listeners to understand, such as: end-times (Mt 24), the new birth (Jn 3:1–12), His crucifixion (Mt 12:40, Mk 8:31), or what follows death (Mt: 25:32–46, Jn 14:2). Jesus specifically referred to accounts in each of the first seven chapters of Genesis, something He would not have done if He knew they were not historical events. If we replace Jesus’ words with our ideas and claim they were “His real intent,” we can seemingly justify almost anything.

Woah, great setup, delivery and punctuating close with that final point which is proven throughout this thread.

Double-woah!

How refreshing!!

[alanmolstad]

now as I have shown, the book of *** talks about the same time in Earth's history as we are dealing with in the book of Genesis..

But is this really true?

Lets go read what it says at *** 38 and see if what im saying is there, is actually written there?

*** 38...4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.


6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof

I think that this is clearly pointing us back to the time of genesis....
*** 38 and the creation story found in Genesis are dealing with the same moments in early earth's history.



This is important for as we shall see, we are abut to learn why the Bible says the earth was in darkness at the start of the Genesis story...

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by MichaellS

. Hold it up and Alan just slips right on by. Why? Because you can’t stand FULL Biblical scrutiny. Get that?

any time you want me to back up something I have posted with a Bible verse?...just ask.

Any time you want to challenge anything I have said and demand to know where it says what I claim the Bible says?....just ask.


I would be happy to list the supporting text for all that I teach....

But you will find that I can do so without insulting anyone .....( a rare talent as of late around these parts it seems)