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Thread: Evolution does not stand up to biblical scrutiny

  1. #101
    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    I'll give some other people on the forum a chance to talk some sense into you.
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

  2. #102
    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    Just so you know it's all in good fun Alan. I agree with some stuff you post but I defenitely don't agree with your stance on Theistic Evolution.
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

  3. #103
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Edited back

  4. #104
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Edited back no2

  5. #105
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    You state that I know you are right? Are you kidding me?

    What spell of delirium have you encountered to wage such evil imaginations over the meaning of six days of work and one of rest? I am supposed to ***ume you are right while driving out simplicity?

    The only instance in the word of God that permits an altered response to the Sabbath day is Romans 14:5, “One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike, ,”

    If the Lord “rested on the seventh day from all His work” (Gen 2:2), if Isaiah called the Sabbath the "Lord's Holy Day", if the Lord “called the light day” (1:5), then there is no spiritualizing of it, the night came and put an end to it till again we come to recognize the “Lord’s Holy Day”. It is open and night puts it to an end. You are under a delirious train of thought my friend. Not only, but have allowed it to captivate for you an evil conclusion as I have pointed out to you in the scriptures which you find inconvenient.

    Gee, I wonder why Alan finds contrary scriptures inconvenient? Do you suppose they don’t agree with his “Hand in Hand” formula? Do you suppose he considers those scriptures that challenge that formula EVIL?

    Well, how about it, after the many attempts to clear the air between us from the word, and you going mute on those references, is that what you are describing for us here, that those references we gave you are to be considered Evil words?

    That Alan maintains all the references we gave from the Bible that challenges Alan’s proposal in Genesis, Alan considers Bible p***ages as EVIL? That our mentioning Bible verses to Alan, he should consider those verses as EVIL? Verses informing His children of his will should be tossed out as EVIL?

    WOW!

    No, I am not interested in your formula when you cannot stand up under the soundness of those verses. You failed at it, remember? They are a cutting sword that you cannot stop though you have convinced yourself if you stop us, the word of God we bring will stop as well.

    Ha. I appealed to your reason long ago, but your willingness to nurture this entrenched error is too great for you to repent, isn’t it? Funny thing about that is nooobody here buys that, and my last next to the last post stands, though people can continue to “set aside” scripture to collectively feed a tradition, repentance still happens. Some will hear and repent, but resistance has to come from within.

    , , Bubble gurgle, bubble gurgle.

  6. #106
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    You state that.....
    I asked you a question about Genesis 1:1 *

    ....you ducked the answer and tried to change the topic.

    how did that work out?






    * hint: it's near the front of the Bible.

  7. #107
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    I asked you a question about Genesis 1:1 *

    ....you ducked the answer and tried to change the topic.

    how did that work out?

    * hint: it's near the front of the Bible.
    You don’t get it do you, , You invalidated your ability to set the narrative by

    “SETTING ASIDE” scripture. See post http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/s...l=1#post169454

    Why is other scripture given proper stance to apply to Genesis? It is unanimous; John 1:1 begins the inspection of Genesis. A Genesis formula tradition-builder’s problem is, where does he stop the NT inspection so his deception can survive?

    More deflection is sure to reappear to shield this inspection.

  8. #108
    alanmolstad
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    Still ducking my Genesis 1:1 question eh MichaellS?

  9. #109
    alanmolstad
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    MichaellS....still ducking my Genesis 1:1 question eh guy?

    So sad...
    It must be so frustrating for you to think you know so many things about the Bible, and yet be so openly totally unable to answer a simple question asked about the very first verse of the bible...

    How embarr***ing for you...
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-11-2016 at 05:08 AM.

  10. #110
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by jude1:3 View Post
    I'll give some other people on the forum a chance to talk some sense into you.

    What I see is this-

    When I talk to a bible student that wants to believe in the YEC teachings but learns (by opening his Bible) that the YEC teachings are just not there, and that what Im saying actually does appear in the text, is that they will normally ***ume that they have failed in some manner, and will likely hope that someone else with more "Bible Smarts" will take over for them.

    They ***ume that the Bible "must" teach the YEC teachings the way they have been taught by the YEC books, videos, and websites, and so they credit their own inability to find the YEC in the Bible to be just their own fault.

    They ***ume that someone else could do better than they did.


    Some Bible students will part company with me with the words, "I know you are wrong Alan, I know the YEC teachings are correct, I just cant prove it right now"

    But Im here to say that its not actually anyone's fault that they cant find and prove any of the YEC teachings.
    This is because the YEC teachings are not found within the Bible.


    The YEC teachings are invented by men and spread around the web in videos and on websites, but they are not in any way based on the Bible.

    When you look at the information you get on a YEC website or in a Ken Ham video, what you find is summations of what the YEC teachers believe the Bible should mean.

    Not what the Bible actually says...

    The YEC videos and websites are putting out their own version of what they think the text means...


    I dont do that.

    I just tell you what the Bible says.


    My questions to our friend MichaellS here are not about what he should think the text "means", rather Im simply asking him what does the text "say?"
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-11-2016 at 05:07 AM.

  11. #111
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    still no verse to back that talk up?



    Then you ain't got squat!
    Here are some verses I'm sure you will ignore.

    "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it". Exodus 20:11

    "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed". Exodus 31:17

    You will note that the context shows past tense, God rested on the seventh day and was refreshed on the seventh day, not that He is resting or that He is being refreshed. You will also note that the Hebrew word for day used in these verses is the same word always used for a 24 hour period.

    Here is more information on this subject, which I'm sure you will not read since you consider yourself a teacher and need no instruction from anyone who doesn't agree with you.

    When it comes to understanding the length of the days in Genesis 1, one of the first questions we need to ask is how do we determine when a day is twenty-four hours long?
    The Hebrew word for day, yom, is used in the singular and plural form 2301 times in the Old Testament, and outside of Genesis there is always agreement as to when the word means a day of twenty-four hours:
    Whenever the word day is used with a number it always means an ordinary day with no exceptions (410 occasions).
    The term evening and morning used together without day outside of Genesis 1 always means an ordinary day (38 occasions).
    When the words evening or morning are used together with the word day outside of Genesis 1 it always means an ordinary day (23 occasions).
    When the word night is used with the word day outside of Genesis 1 it always means an ordinary day (52 occasions).

    It is clear then that the word day outside of Genesis 1 means a day of twenty-four hours when it is used with a number, with the phrase “evening and morning”, when the words “evening” or “morning” occur with “day”, and when the term “night” occurs with “day”.
    It is the context of the word “day” that will determine its meaning, and when the context of Genesis 1 is examined you will find that the word day on each of the days is accompanied by either: “evening and morning”; a number; or by the word “night”. Therefore, the context reveals that the meaning of “day” on each of the six days is a day of twenty-four hours.

  12. #112
    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Here are some verses I'm sure you will ignore.

    "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it". Exodus 20:11

    "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed". Exodus 31:17

    .



    Boom. Flawless Victory.
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

  13. #113
    alanmolstad
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    you say a lot of things...but at no place do you have a verse that teaches that the 7th day ended.
    An ending to the 7th day is a false "conclusion" you needed to reach...

    Im not attempting to try to tell you what things "mean" Im still just pointing out what the bible does and does NOT say.

    And the Bible does NOT say at any point that the 7th day has ended.

    In fact there are real verses that teach that the 7th day of God rest continues to this very hour!!!!!!!!!


    If you want, just keep looking for a verse that teaches just as clearly that the 7th day ended....



    there is none!!!!



    There is not a single verse in the whole bible that even hints that the 7th day has ended yet....


    Not a single verse supports the idea that the 7th day has ended.

    The only people that try to tell us that the 7th day has ended are people that base this false teaching on their personal "need" to have it ended, regardless of the fact that this is not talked about in the text.

  14. #114
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    ....:
    Whenever the word day is used with a number it always means an ordinary day with no exceptions ......
    Who said that to you?......a YEC website?

    I know you are just copy/pasting on me now...so where did you get that?



    Here is a little clue about YEC writers like Ken Ham (remember I attended his 8 week ORIGINS cl***, taught by Ken personally).....when a guy says "no exceptions" about the Hebrew or the Greek, you can bet the guy is hiding something that totally undercuts his point.


    So who said this to you and got you to trust that stuff?

  15. #115
    Senior Member jude1:3's Avatar
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    It's safe to say Alan probably would have been anathematized from the Church back in the day for pushing this garbage. It deserves to be right up there with Arianans and the Gnostics.
    Last edited by jude1:3; 08-11-2016 at 05:34 PM.
    The Fruits of Macroevolution are: Atheism, Social Darwinism, Racism, Eugenics and No Moral Absolutes.

  16. #116
    alanmolstad
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    failing to find any support for their false teachings within the Bible the normal thing the YEC believer might try next is to just get personal and attack the Bible Student personal way.

    The hope is to get the Bible Student to react in an in-kind manner that will cause the topic to be lost.

  17. #117
    alanmolstad
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    what does the Bible say at Genesis 1:1 was the very first thing God created In The Beginning?

  18. #118
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    The evolutionist here maintains the seventh day is without end but can’t point to the place where it says it was created without end. Anytime we conclude upon highly inflated ideas, we lose perspective at best and have no guard against glorifying in self.

    To form an inflated conclusion against simplicity is conjecture.

    con·jec·ture
    /kənˈjekCHər/
    noun

    “an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.”

    For those who have turned simplicity into imagination will see soundness as inept, even from the word of God. This is obvious. While it is useless to simplicity, imagination gives life to conjecture. Whenever soundness reappears, it is again attacked as inept and ignored.

    As with the mind and imagination of an evolutionist, will again confront soundness from the word and attempt to change a day (the seventh) into infinity. The bible indicates no such thing.

    “He who, , darkens day into night, , The LORD is His name.” (Amos 5:8)

    If I’m not mistaken, the seventh day was referred to in Genesis as a “day”. Here in Amos, we see ANY day that is called “day”, or that is referred to as “day”, darkened to end that day.

    Where does the seventh day escape Amos’s description that darkens it?

    Is it possible to form an simplistic (seventh day has no end) answer from the word? Not for an evolutionist.

  19. #119
    Senior Member MichaellS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jude1:3 View Post
    It's safe to say Alan probably would have been anathematized from the Church back in the day for pushing this garbage. It deserves to be right up there with Arianans and the Gnostics.
    Fair enough ***umption. But not so fair to those who's faith is beset by all the mental / spiritual abuse that continues.

    Glad both of you are there to speak for the truth.

  20. #120
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaellS View Post
    [FONT=Arial Narrow][SIZE=4]The .......
    Still ducking my question about Genesis 1: 1 eh?

  21. #121
    alanmolstad
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    what you learn when you look into the history of the many YEC textbooks and websites, is that while they might look at first glance to have a ton of information there, the real truth of the matter is that all these YEC sources are just doing a lot of copy/pasting of the work of Henry Morris.

    Ken Ham told me this personally.

    the other thing I learned from warnings from Walter Martin and from guys like Ken Samples (who used to cover for Walter on his show), is that whenever a person is talking about Genesis and the Hebrew Language and says things like "This always means__" you can bet the guy is fudging things to make a better-looking case....(ie telling a lie)

    The Hebrew language is just not like that, and when people make grand claims about it, and try to tell you that "so-n-so" is a Hebrew Language "rule" you have to point out that "There is no such rule"

    And thats the facts here kids....

    They may claim on a YEC website that there is such a Hebrew "rule' but in truth they are just making that stuff up so it looks better.


    Now in your post number #111 above you copy/paste the standard stuff that has been posted by other people to me over the years....thats no big deal as I expect that to happen once people start to realize that the bible actually does show what Im saying is true, and therefore people stop trusting what they can see with their own eyes, (ie that Im right) and start to attempt to get some other voice to perhaps answer the teachings that I raise here.



    But its a moot point....

    The YEC websites are wrong.
    The information you get from a YEC website is wrong.
    The talk about "Rules in the Hebrew" are all just stuff the creator of the YEC website just makes up out of thin air.

    Now, on a side note:
    I have on other topics related to Genesis over the years went over the things listed in post number #111 above and took apart the claims made therein.

    I have went over each point.....point by point.

    (Yes it took me a long time to do, but I did it to show that there is really nothing to support any of the stuff found in post number #111 above)

    I may have to do that again it seems?

    Or I may just do a search, and post the link to what i have said here on the Walter Martin Forum before?...



    Or....I guess I could just find a "Reasons To Believe " webpage that address all the claims and copy/paste that here.
    After all if thats what people do to me, I guess I can play that same game too!
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-12-2016 at 04:41 AM.

  22. #122
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    so Theistic evolution (what I believe) is connected closely with Old Earth Creationism (what Ken Samples believes) and Ken's position is what Walter Martin taught in his answers on the show....


    It's all basically the same idea.

    That idea is that the earth is here because god created it,and that life is here because god created it,and that nothing in the story of Genesis stands against science and/or evolution....That the two works (evolution and Genesis)can work to help us understand this creation...
    Alan, show us one verse in the bible that says man evolved from an ape. Show us one verse that will make us believe
    that our Lord Jesus had an ancestor that was an ape.
    Last edited by disciple; 08-12-2016 at 01:10 PM.

  23. #123
    Senior Member disciple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    what you learn when you look into the history of the many YEC textbooks and websites, is that while they might look at first glance to have a ton of information there, the real truth of the matter is that all these YEC sources are just doing a lot of copy/pasting of the work of Henry Morris.

    Ken Ham told me this personally.

    the other thing I learned from warnings from Walter Martin and from guys like Ken Samples (who used to cover for Walter on his show), is that whenever a person is talking about Genesis and the Hebrew Language and says things like "This always means__" you can bet the guy is fudging things to make a better-looking case....(ie telling a lie)

    The Hebrew language is just not like that, and when people make grand claims about it, and try to tell you that "so-n-so" is a Hebrew Language "rule" you have to point out that "There is no such rule"

    And thats the facts here kids....

    They may claim on a YEC website that there is such a Hebrew "rule' but in truth they are just making that stuff up so it looks better.


    Now in your post number #111 above you copy/paste the standard stuff that has been posted by other people to me over the years....thats no big deal as I expect that to happen once people start to realize that the bible actually does show what Im saying is true, and therefore people stop trusting what they can see with their own eyes, (ie that Im right) and start to attempt to get some other voice to perhaps answer the teachings that I raise here.



    But its a moot point....

    The YEC websites are wrong.
    The information you get from a YEC website is wrong.
    The talk about "Rules in the Hebrew" are all just stuff the creator of the YEC website just makes up out of thin air.

    Now, on a side note:
    I have on other topics related to Genesis over the years went over the things listed in post number #111 above and took apart the claims made therein.

    I have went over each point.....point by point.

    (Yes it took me a long time to do, but I did it to show that there is really nothing to support any of the stuff found in post number #111 above)

    I may have to do that again it seems?

    Or I may just do a search, and post the link to what i have said here on the Walter Martin Forum before?...



    Or....I guess I could just find a "Reasons To Believe " webpage that address all the claims and copy/paste that here.
    After all if thats what people do to me, I guess I can play that same game too!

    Quote by Thomas Paine;
    “To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture. Enjoy, sir, your insensibility of feeling and reflecting. It is the prerogative of animals.”

  24. #124
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by disciple View Post
    Alan, show us one verse in the bible that says man evolved from an ape. Show us one verse that will make us believe
    that our Lord Jesus had an ancestor that was an ape.
    that seems like an evolution question?

    Now I know I must be mistaken about that, after all I have said over and over that I do not teach nor defend evolution...so I trust you did not just ask me one correct?

    For a more clear understanding of my views, see post #44 of this topic.
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-12-2016 at 03:32 PM.

  25. #125
    alanmolstad
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    I will ask you a question.....

    Now my question will be a Bible question and it has a nice little Bible answer,

    Here is my question -
    According to the Bible where was man created?
    Last edited by alanmolstad; 08-12-2016 at 03:59 PM.

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