There are no Obedient LDS

[Yodas_Prodigy]

I have point blank asked numerous LDS about their perfection. Only one has claimed it (and we know he is mistaken). The rest have said stuff like, "I am trying." "Grace is helping me."

The Bible shows your falleness. The BOM and D & C show your hopelessness....

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

For the wages of sin is death.

The heart is deceitful beyond all else, who can know it.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.



Spencer Kimball says that "Trying [to be sinless] is not sufficient."


1.) 2 NEPHI 25:23: “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” [Are you honestly doing all that you can do? Of course not.]

2.) ALMA 5:27-31: “Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins? Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life. Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless. And again I say unto you, is there one among you that doth make a mock of his brother, or that heapeth upon him persecutions? Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved!”

3.) MORONI 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.” [Notice the If and Then statement?]

4.) 1 NEPHI 3:7: “…for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.”

5.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 25:15: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.”

6.) ALMA 45:16: “…for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.”

7.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 1:31-32: “For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.”

8.) ALMA 34:32: “For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.”

9.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 58:43: “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” [Have you forsaken all of your sins? Of course not.]

10.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 82:7: “And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.”

11.) ALMA 34:33-35: “And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.”

12.) ALMA 11:37: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” [You are lost and going to Hell, not the second or first level of heaven]

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

I have point blank asked numerous LDS about their perfection. Only one has claimed it (and we know he is mistaken). The rest have said stuff like, "I am trying." "Grace is helping me."

The Bible shows your falleness. The BOM and D & C show your hopelessness....

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

For the wages of sin is death.

The heart is deceitful beyond all else, who can know it.

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.



Spencer Kimball says that "Trying [to be sinless] is not sufficient."


1.) 2 NEPHI 25:23: “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” [Are you honestly doing all that you can do? Of course not.]

2.) ALMA 5:27-31: “Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins? Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life. Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless. And again I say unto you, is there one among you that doth make a mock of his brother, or that heapeth upon him persecutions? Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved!”

3.) MORONI 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.” [Notice the If and Then statement?]

4.) 1 NEPHI 3:7: “…for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.”

5.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 25:15: “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.”

6.) ALMA 45:16: “…for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.”

7.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 1:31-32: “For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.”

8.) ALMA 34:32: “For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.”

9.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 58:43: “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins—behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” [Have you forsaken all of your sins? Of course not.]

10.) DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 82:7: “And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.”

11.) ALMA 34:33-35: “And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.”

12.) ALMA 11:37: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” [You are lost and going to Hell, not the second or first level of heaven]

I think this scripture says it best--in the part you did not bold "“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”

It's a simple formula--turn your life over to Christ, love God with all of your might, mind and strength--and then by His Grace, you will be perfected.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

It's a simple formula--turn your life over to Christ, love God with all of your might, mind and strength--and then by His Grace, you will be perfected.

So grace is based upon you turning yourself over to Christ and loving God with all of your might, mind and strength? You have a strange definition for grace.
Grace is unmerited favor. That means God gives it to you without you having to earn it. Nor do you deserve it when you get it.

You also fail because you are not capable of loving God with all of your might, mind and strength. There is always something holding you back.

[alanmolstad]

yoda....You are correct in pointing out the serious error in the statement by Julie, when we read her words "and then by His Grace, you will be perfected"

This is totally counter to the Bible's teachings, and seems to make God a reactionary person.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

So grace is based upon you turning yourself over to Christ and loving God with all of your might, mind and strength? You have a strange definition for grace.
Grace is unmerited favor. That means God gives it to you without you having to earn it. Nor do you deserve it when you get it.

You also fail because you are not capable of loving God with all of your might, mind and strength. There is always something holding you back.

(I would ask you to stop reading what with your prejudice eyes, but read what I say---was there anything about me earning anything, or was there a statement of what God will do for those who love him?)

When we turn ourselves over to Christ we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost who helps us do this. There is no earning as we are not capable of ourselves. That is the point of the scripture. But God does expect us to fully turn ourselves over to his will and to love him fully.

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (Is this a commandment you believe is no longer in effect?)

So, you say we are not capable of loving God with all of our might, mind and strength? What about ***? Or Moses? Or Peter? or Paul? Did these men turn their lives fully over to Christ--and through the power of the Holy Ghost, were they perfected in him by his grace?

God gives two types of grace. The first is to everyone as everyone who dies will be resurrected.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Hence--all of us die, and all of as are made alive again through Christ.

The second type of grace is the grace unto perfection. This he gives to those who love him.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yoda....You are correct in pointing out the serious error in the statement by Julie, when we read her words "and then by His Grace, you will be perfected"

This is totally counter to the Bible's teachings, and seems to make God a reactionary person.

No, just a God who does what He states he is going to do and means what He says.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

So grace is based upon you turning yourself over to Christ and loving God with all of your might, mind and strength? You have a strange definition for grace.
Grace is unmerited favor. That means God gives it to you without you having to earn it. Nor do you deserve it when you get it.

You also fail because you are not capable of loving God with all of your might, mind and strength. There is always something holding you back.

So then everyone has received God's grace and are forgiven of their sins? So what are we arguing about then?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

So then everyone has received God's grace and are forgiven of their sins? So what are we arguing about then?

Woo Hoo--we're all saved. No need to worry about being a Mormon! LOL

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

So then everyone has received God's grace and are forgiven of their sins? So what are we arguing about then?

Where do you get that? Not from me. I am aware that LDS embrace a form universalism. If someone receives grace, it is fully up to God to give it and to whom he wants to give it.

No where in scripture does it say that everyone receives grace.

God is not required to give grace to everyone. If he were, it would no longer be grace.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

When we turn ourselves over to Christ we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost who helps us do this. There is no earning as we are not capable of ourselves. That is the point of the scripture. But God does expect us to fully turn ourselves over to his will and to love him fully.

2 NEPHI 25:23: “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

After all you can do, then you get grace. That is works. Do you deny this LDS scripture?

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (Is this a commandment you believe is no longer in effect?)

Oh, it is in effect. But you can't do it. You never will be able to in this life. Any time you sin, you have chosen yourself over God.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, you say we are not capable of loving God with all of our might, mind and strength? What about ***? Or Moses? Or Peter? or Paul? Did these men turn their lives fully over to Christ--and through the power of the Holy Ghost, were they perfected in him by his grace?

Moses killed a man and could not enter the promised land after he split the stone. *** got chastised by God starting in *** 38. Peter not only denied Jesus, he sided with Judizers and had to be confronted by Paul. Paul called himself the chief of sinners.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

God gives two types of grace. The first is to everyone as everyone who dies will be resurrected.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Hence--all of us die, and all of as are made alive again through Christ.

First, this isn't about the final resurrection. It is speaking of being made alive, born again to the things of God.
This scripture is not speaking of ALL men (and women).

Originally Posted by BigJulie

The second type of grace is the grace unto perfection. This he gives to those who love him.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

This scripture is not speaking of Grace.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Where do you get that? Not from me. I am aware that LDS embrace a form universalism. If someone receives grace, it is fully up to God to give it and to whom he wants to give it.

No where in scripture does it say that everyone receives grace.

God is not required to give grace to everyone. If he were, it would no longer be grace.

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

God, being a just God, does not pick and choose whom he will save. His grace is given to all. Because we all are in a fallen state because of Adam, God--being truly just--gives us all life again through him (grace). Certainly, it is not required--but as He is a just God, he extends his grace to all.

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

(Or are you one of those who believes God creates some who will be condemned to hell from the beginning?)

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

God, being a just God, does not pick and choose whom he will save. His grace is given to all. Because we all are in a fallen state because of Adam, God--being truly just--gives us all life again through him (grace). Certainly, it is not required--but as He is a just God, he extends his grace to all.

Ephesians1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.


John 13:18 [ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

John 15:16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

John 15:19If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

(Or are you one of those who believes God creates some who will be condemned to hell from the beginning?)

God only created Adam and Eve. No one else.

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male (Adam) and female (Eve) He created them.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

2 NEPHI 25:23: “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.”

After all you can do, then you get grace. That is works. Do you deny this LDS scripture?

I deny your interpretation of this scripture. You read this to mean that there is some type of equation of If and Then, when in reality--it reads as even after all you can do--you are still saved by grace. That is why the first part of this scripture is so important--why do we labor diligently to teach our children and our brethren to believe in Christ---because, even after all you can do--you are still saved by grace.

Oh, it is in effect. But you can't do it. You never will be able to in this life. Any time you sin, you have chosen yourself over God.

Yes, and if you read that scripture in full-context rather than your prejudice eyes, you would see it says just that.

Moses killed a man and could not enter the promised land after he split the stone. *** got chastised by God starting in *** 38. Peter not only denied Jesus, he sided with Judizers and had to be confronted by Paul. Paul called himself the chief of sinners.

Yup, and all these men--in spite of their efforts were still able to be perfected by the grace of God. But don't kid yourself for one moment that they did not come to the realization that they were to turn their lives fully over to God and love him with all of their might, mind, and strength. It is what God asks and it is the least we can do.

First, this isn't about the final resurrection. It is speaking of being made alive, born again to the things of God.
This scripture is not speaking of ALL men (and women).

It says "ALL" men. Did you miss that?

This scripture is not speaking of Grace.

It is speaking of the grace that God gives to those who love him.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

God, being a just God, does not pick and choose whom he will save. His grace is given to all. Because we all are in a fallen state because of Adam, God--being truly just--gives us all life again through him (grace). Certainly, it is not required--but as He is a just God, he extends his grace to all.

Ephesians1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.


John 13:18 [ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

John 15:16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

John 15:19If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

(Or are you one of those who believes God creates some who will be condemned to hell from the beginning?)

God only created Adam and Eve. No one else.

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male (Adam) and female (Eve) He created them.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Ephesians1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

I read this to mean that they were chosen to be leaders in the pre-existence--not that God is unjust. Not sure how you deal with predestiny if you don't believe in a pre-existence.

John 13:18 [ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

Yup, Christ knew who would betray him. He was chosen to lead and his nature (or what we call intelligence) he chose to turn his will away from God.

John 15:16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Once again, speaking to his disciples whom he has chosen to be his leaders.

John 15:19If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Speaking to his leaders again.

God only created Adam and Eve. No one else.

You really believe this? Wow!!!

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male (Adam) and female (Eve) He created them.

[/QUOTE] Yup. I can see you had to insert the names to make it read as you desire.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Ephesians1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

I read this to mean that they were chosen to be leaders in the pre-existence--not that God is unjust. Not sure how you deal with predestiny if you don't believe in a pre-existence.

John 13:18 [ Jesus Identifies His Betrayer ] “I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.’

Yup, Christ knew who would betray him. He was chosen to lead and his nature (or what we call intelligence) he chose to turn his will away from God.

John 15:16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.

Once again, speaking to his disciples whom he has chosen to be his leaders.

John 15:19If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Speaking to his leaders again.

God only created Adam and Eve. No one else.

You really believe this? Wow!!!

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male (Adam) and female (Eve) He created them.

[/QUOTE] Yup. I can see you had to insert the names to make it read as you desire.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

It says "ALL" men. Did you miss that?

The focus is all who have faith not all men, see context below. The resurrection of those without faith in Christ isn't grace. It's judgment.

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, who am not worthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

The Risen Christ, Our Hope
12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

The Last Enemy Destroyed
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”[a] But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I read this to mean that they were chosen to be leaders in the pre-existence--not that God is unjust. Not sure how you deal with predestiny if you don't believe in a pre-existence.

You are reading a presupposition in to the text. You are placing thoughts in to the text that are not there.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yup, Christ knew who would betray him. He was chosen to lead and his nature (or what we call intelligence) he chose to turn his will away from God.

They did not make the choice. That is clearly the point.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Once again, speaking to his disciples whom he has chosen to be his leaders.

They did not make the choice. That is clearly the point.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Speaking to his leaders again.

They did not make the choice. That is clearly the point.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You really believe this? Wow!!!

Yes. I believe the Bible.

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yup. I can see you had to insert the names to make it read as you desire.

Who else was created in Genesis 1? No one. Am I somehow misleading? Of course not.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Looks like a double post.

[BigJulie]

I will post the scripture in context--you seem to have to lump a lot of things into one to ignore the details.

1 Co 15 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (Christ is the first one to be resurrected)

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (Because by Adam --a man--we experience death, it is also be man as well as God--Christ--we experience resurrection)


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (As all men die because of Adam, all men are resurrected because of Christ.)

But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (But everyone will be resurrected based on their place--Christ will be first, and then after that--those who follow Christ)

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (Then everyone else--as Christ will deliver up everything and everyone to God the Father.)


For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. (He will overcome all, even his enemies)

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (The last enemy of all will be death. All will overcome death)


Then--at this point the judgement will come and all will receive some form of grace except the Sons of Perdition.

Oh, and then right after this stuff--Paul starts talking about baptism for the dead. It makes total sense in context.

[BigJulie]

Love the fact that Alan and Apologette has inserted so many videos that the site won't work. Tried to edit--duplicate I can't delete.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Love the fact that Alan and Apologette has inserted so many videos that the site won't work. Tried to edit--duplicate I can't delete.

It is annoying to try to post... Have a nice evening.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

You are reading a presupposition in to the text. You are placing thoughts in to the text that are not there.

How about if you let me tell you what it says as I am the member and you are not. Why do you think it is proceeded with--we labor diligently to preach of Christ? And how about within the context of ALL of our other scriptures and teachings?

They did not make the choice. That is clearly the point.

Yes--I completely agree, which means that if some guy goes to 12 years of Bible school or gets a Ph.D. in divinity, they cannot choose to be leaders in Christ church. I agree completely.

Yes. I believe the Bible.

Did you miss the point of God being the creator of all things?

Who else was created in Genesis 1? No one. Am I somehow misleading? Of course not.

Oh, so if you have children--do you see yourself as their creator and God has nothing to do with it? That's one of the more amazing things I have ever heard.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Where do you get that? Not from me. I am aware that LDS embrace a form universalism. If someone receives grace, it is fully up to God to give it and to whom he wants to give it.

No where in scripture does it say that everyone receives grace.

God is not required to give grace to everyone. If he were, it would no longer be grace.

Ok....if God doesn't give everyone grace, and we have nothing to do with receiving grace...who gets grace?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Looks like a double post.

those can happen sometimes. so--how did you end up in this forum? what is your story?