There are no Obedient LDS

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Who fear Him and WORKS righteousness...

God knows all. He can see all points in time....He knows what everyone will do...He is omniscient. Because of this, He knows which people will accept Him, and which won't. It doesn't mean he actually chose them to do so....it simply means He already knew that they would. The point is, He still treats ALL fairly, and those who reject Him, still have the same fair opportunity to do so as anyone else. It is still up to the individual to make the choices that lead them to accepting Him or rejecting Him. So He simply knows which people will respect Him and WORK righteousness....but they still have to do so, as this scripture states.

Prior to them rejecting Him....He treated them the same as anyone else.

Jesus Christ atoned for ALL mankind, correct?

What kind of righteousness would that be - going to a spooky temple and wearing a wedding dress? Who are you then married to - the devil who frequents Mormons rites? Participation in Satanic rites makes one a follower of Satan.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Wait, when I stated that we must follow Christ and love him with our heart, might, and strength--you stated that this was "earning" your way to heaven. Now you qualify that whoever fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him? Boy, that sounds like you are making my point for me.

Okay, I am curious what you believe it means to "fear him"??

Loving a demonic impersonation of Jesus - the Devil's brother - is not following the Biblical Christ.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Apologette

What kind of righteousness would that be - going to a spooky temple and wearing a wedding dress? Who are you then married to - the devil who frequents Mormons rites? Participation in Satanic rites makes one a follower of Satan.

Your response makes absolutely no sense and had nothing to do with the scripture....oh man...you're funny...like SO funny

In your zeal to "specialize" in Mormon "history", have you neglected to read the Bible??

I'm really just kidding ....but seriously, that had nothing to do with the verse

[Berean]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I think this scripture says it best--in the part you did not bold "“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.”

It's a simple formula--turn your life over to Christ, love God with all of your might, mind and strength--and then by His Grace, you will be perfected.

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Berean

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

Before I address this further, can I ask you a question first?

What do you believe this to mean?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (New Testament, Matthew, Matthew 5)


And then this also

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (New Testament, Luke, Luke 13)

Thanks

[Berean]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Before I address this further, can I ask you a question first?

What do you believe this to mean?

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (New Testament, Matthew, Matthew 5)


And then this also

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. (New Testament, Luke, Luke 13)

Thanks

I will answer, but first, tell me why you ask.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Berean

I will answer, but first, tell me why you ask.

Well, because I think they are pretty clear, Jesus tells us to be "perfect" like God is "perfect". Jesus....tells us. I think if He says to do something, we're supposed to do it.

Why would we not do that?

Second, it seems that it's clear that by a person's own actions, they risk not being saved, unless you define "perish" as something else.

That's why I need to ask what you think. It's the Bible, so you should have a clear concise answer to the verses right?

[Berean]

Duplicate post

[Berean]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Well, because I think they are pretty clear, Jesus tells us to be "perfect" like God is "perfect". Jesus....tells us. I think if He says to do something, we're supposed to do it.

Why would we not do that?

Second, it seems that it's clear that by a person's own actions, they risk not being saved, unless you define "perish" as something else.

That's why I need to ask what you think. It's the Bible, so you should have a clear concise answer to the verses right?

Why do you feel you "need" to ask me what I think of those verses, before you can comment on my post concerning LDS Scripture? You can comment on what I posted or not, that's your choice, but why are we playing charades? What does my opinion of those verses have to do with my comments and Elder Theodore M. Burton's comments concerning the requirements LDS must fulfill prior to grace becoming effective; How sinless perfection must first be achieved before "grace" kicks in? Do you think these verses are some sort of a re****al? If so, how so?

Why is it essential that I comment on these verses before you will comment on mine? What's your point?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Berean

Why do you feel you "need" to ask me what I think of those verses, before you can comment on my post concerning LDS Scripture? You can comment on what I posted or not, that's your choice, but why are we playing charades? What does my opinion of those verses have to do with my comments and Elder Theodore M. Burton's comments concerning the requirements LDS must fulfill prior to grace becoming effective; How sinless perfection must first be achieved before "grace" kicks in? Do you think these verses are some sort of a re****al? If so, how so?

Why is it essential that I comment on these verses before you will comment on mine? What's your point?

So you have no answer then. Even though you said you did and that you would share it.

I'm not the one playing games

[Berean]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

So you have no answer then. Even though you said you did and that you would share it.

I'm not the one playing games

Yes you are playing games. I'm merely asking what my opinion of those verses has to do with my comments concerning the rather ****ing LDS Scriptures? It seems like you're attempting to dodge the issue with a distraction. If you can convince me that my "opinion" of those verses has something to do with my original comments, then I'll play along. Until then, please stick to the topic of my post.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Berean

Yes you are playing games. I'm merely asking what my opinion of those verses has to do with my comments concerning the rather ****ing LDS Scriptures? It seems like you're attempting to dodge the issue with a distraction. If you can convince me that my "opinion" of those verses has something to do with my original comments, then I'll play along. Until then, please stick to the topic of my post.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

Here is a scripture--do you see this as an "if, then" statement as well regarding perfection?


But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

[Berean]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Here is a scripture--do you see this as an "if, then" statement as well regarding perfection?


But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

I fail to see your point. The Bible, the BoM and Mormonism all teach different eschatology.

The example I gave you was from the Book of Mormon. The issue is that LDS grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do." (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime all on your own. Even the desire to sin. And if you don't do that, you are not truly obedient.

Is the Book of Mormon wrong on that?

[MickeyS]

I will answer, but first, tell me why you ask.

Why did you say this if you didn't mean it?

[Berean]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Why did you say this if you didn't mean it?

I meant it. But you haven't told me why you need to know that.

[MickeyS]

I will answer, but first, tell me why you ask.

Why did you say this if you didn't mean it?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Berean

I fail to see your point. The Bible, the BoM and Mormonism all teach different eschatology.

The example I gave you was from the Book of Mormon. The issue is that LDS grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do." (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime all on your own. Even the desire to sin. And if you don't do that, you are not truly obedient.

Is the Book of Mormon wrong on that?

Here is a scripture--do you see this as an "if, then" statement as well regarding perfection?

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

[Berean]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Why did you say this if you didn't mean it?

I meant it. But you haven't told me why you need to know that, or what it has to do with my OP.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

[Berean]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Here is a scripture--do you see this as an "if, then" statement as well regarding perfection?

But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

The if/then statement, is in the Book of Mormon. 2 Ne 25:23.

The Christian (Bible) understanding of grace is much different than LDS grace. LDS must overcome their sins completely in this lifetime, or they are sealed to Satan for eternity in the afterlife.

Christians on the other hand, are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Which means Jesus pays the penalty for our sins and by having faith in His Work on the Cross for salvation rather than our own works (which is what LDS do) we achieve that which Mormons can only hope for but will never actually achieve -- the very sinlessness of Christ.

That's the point. So showing me Bible verses which don't apply to LDS is pointless.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Berean

The if/then statement, is in the Book of Mormon. 2 Ne 25:23.

The Christian (Bible) understanding of grace is much different than LDS grace. LDS must overcome their sins completely in this lifetime, or they are sealed to Satan for eternity in the afterlife.

Christians on the other hand, are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Which means Jesus pays the penalty for our sins and by having faith in His Work on the Cross for salvation rather than our own works (which is what LDS do) we achieve that which Mormons can only hope for but will never actually achieve -- the very sinlessness of Christ.

That's the point. So showing me Bible verses which don't apply to LDS is pointless.

I can see you misunderstand our teachings, but I am wondering why you will not address the one scripture I gave you.

The point I am making is that the same point that you misinterpret in the Book of Mormon is also found within the Bible.

[Berean]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I can see you misunderstand our teachings, but I am wondering why you will not address the one scripture I gave you.

The point I am making is that the same point that you misinterpret in the Book of Mormon is also found within the Bible.

I told you why I won't address the verses you posted.

Why won't you address the LDS Scriptures "I" posted? Why do I have to answer your question before you will address my argument?

What am I misinterpreting? The if/then statement is clearly there.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

[Berean]

If either of you are hinting that none of this is true because the Bible disagrees with it, then how is it that the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth?

"I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book."
* Joseph Smith (LDS.org)

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I can see you misunderstand our teachings, but I am wondering why you will not address the one scripture I gave you.

The point I am making is that the same point that you misinterpret in the Book of Mormon is also found within the Bible.

I told you why I won't address the verses you posted. The Bible and Mormonism don't agree on the point you're attempting to make.

Why won't you address the LDS Scriptures "I" posted?

What am I misinterpreting? The if/then statement is clearly there.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Berean

I meant it. But you haven't told me why you need to know that, or what it has to do with my OP.

Here it is again:

Actually, no. The formula for LDS grace is an if/then statement. If you deny yourself of all ungodliness, (overcome even the desire to sin), then is grace sufficient. Moroni 10:32.

I know it's confusing, because it says "by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ;"

However, grace does nothing for you until "after all you can do. (2 Ne 25:23) In order for grace to become effective, you must already be prefect in Christ. So really, the LDS Jesus does absolutely nothing for you that you don't have to do yourself, which is overcome sin in this lifetime.

July 1972
Salvation and Exaltation
Elder Theodore M. Burton
***istant to the Council of the Twelve

Exaltation comes as a gift from God, dependent upon my obedience to God’s law. No works I do solely of my own power can bring this to p***. Only by the grace of God has this course been opened to me, but only through obedience to the laws of God can I claim my inheritance in the celestial kingdom of my Heavenly Father as a son within his family. I cannot be exalted in my sins, but must work until I overcome them. Amulek the prophet explained this most clearly as he said of God: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” (Alma 11:37.)

I did answer your question. But I'll respond to this fully, and then will you answer my question, or are you going to be dishonest again?

[Berean]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

I did answer your question. But I'll respond to this fully, and then will you answer my question, or are you going to be dishonest again?

I was not dishonest.

Accusing me of that is dishonest.

I'll await your answer.

In the meantime, allow me to remind you that the Scriptures you posted do not apply. That's mostly why I chose not to answer until you offered the explanation you finally agree to above.

There are clearly 3 different Eschatologies involved -- Christian, LDS and Book of Mormon. All three teach different means of salvation, so you cannot use Bible verses as proof text for the Book of Mormon or even LDS doctrine as proof text for the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon is silent on the peculiar doctrines that separate Mormonism from Christianity, including:

• Aaronic priesthood
• Baptisms for the dead
• Celestial marriage
• Church organization
• Exaltation
• Polytheism
• Three heavens etc.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Berean

I was not dishonest.

Accusing me of that is dishonest.

I'll await your answer.

In the meantime, allow me to remind you that the Scriptures you posted do not apply. That's mostly why I chose not to answer until you offered the explanation you finally agree to above.

There are clearly 3 different Eschatologies involved -- Christian, LDS and Book of Mormon. All three teach different means of salvation, so you cannot use Bible verses as proof text for the Book of Mormon or even LDS doctrine as proof text for the Book of Mormon.
The Book of Mormon is silent on the peculiar doctrines that separate Mormonism from Christianity, including:

• Aaronic priesthood
• Baptisms for the dead
• Celestial marriage
• Church organization
• Exaltation
• Polytheism
• Three heavens etc.

Whoa.....none of that was relevant to you response ....who's moving the goalposts now?