Who was the first God?

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Who was the first God?

If there was a Father to our Father God, that makes him our spiritual grandfather. We should know our grandfather’s name. Right?

The Bible does not teach this though. We are told that the God of the Bible is the only all-powerful, all-knowing, everywhere-present God.

Isaiah 45:21-22 KJV
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Who was the first God?

If there was a Father to our Father God, that makes him our spiritual grandfather. We should know our grandfather’s name. Right?

The Bible does not teach this though. We are told that the God of the Bible is the only all-powerful, all-knowing, everywhere-present God.

Isaiah 45:21-22 KJV
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

No savior beside him in Isaiah's metaphor?

Do you think this is why the Jews felt so justified in stoning Stephen when he said " And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

[Yodas_Prodigy]

How about it LDS Church Ladies?

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

No savior beside him in Isaiah's metaphor?

Isaiah 45:21-22 KJV
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

I think this is quite clear that Isaiah from God says there is only one God. This is not a metaphor. You are reading your presupposition in to the text. I think the words are quite clear.

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Do you think this is why the Jews felt so justified in stoning Stephen when he said " And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

If you read the whole p***age, you will get your answer:

8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. 10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke. 11 Then they secretly induced men to say, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.” 12 And they stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes; and they came upon him, seized him, and brought him to the council. 13 They also set up false witnesses who said, “This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.”

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

If there was a Father to our Father God, that makes him our spiritual grandfather. We should know our grandfather’s name. Right?

if the Father and God of Jesus is also our Father and God, as the book of John quotes Jesus affirming, then we should know our Father's name. Right ?

So what is it?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

If you read the whole p***age, you will get your answer:

8 And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and signs among the people. 9 Then there arose some from what is called the Synagogue of the Freedmen (Cyrenians, Alexandrians, and those from Cilicia and Asia), disputing with Stephen. 10 And they were not able to resist the wisdom and the Spirit by which he spoke. 11 Then they secretly induced men to say, “We have heard him speak blasphemous words against Moses and God.” 12 And they stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes; and they came upon him, seized him, and brought him to the council. 13 They also set up false witnesses who said, “This man does not cease to speak blasphemous words against this holy place and the law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.”

Keep going--they were upset, but it is when he said " And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God"---it was at that point, they had had enough and felt they had reason to stone him. So, he basically said that the Savior was on the right hand of God and at that point was stoned to death.

[alanmolstad]

yes..Stephen quotes an Old Test Scripture, and that in doing so he is making the claim that this person Jesus was the Christ talked about in the Old Test verse..

But you may ask..."Where did Stephen get this idea for being on the "right hand" ?

I believe the answer is that he got the idea to say this from listening to Peter on the Day of Pentecost.

If you check out the story about that event, you will see https://www.biblegateway.com/p***age/?search=Acts+2

"Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear."




I believe what we read in the last words of Stephen is the final teaching of him to the Jews who were killing him at the time.
He quotes the teaching that he likely heard from Peter, who in the very first sermon of the Christian church does make use of these words about the "right hand of God" as it actually is taken out of the Old test verse written by King David.


So Stephen is quoting a sermon by Peter, and Peter was quoting a verse likely written by David.




The expression that David made use of was a common idea that being that the "right hand" was a place of honor due to it being not the "left hand" as the left hand was the hand that everyone at that time cleaned their **** with.

[alanmolstad]

oh...and another thing.

lots and lots of commentaries make a big deal over the point that Stephen talks about Jesus "standing" at the right hand...where as the verse in the Old Test says "sitting".

Many bible teachers go on and on over this minor point, and come up with all kinds of reasons for the difference.

I dont think any of that stuff is needed to understand why there is this use of different wordings!

All you have to do is go back to the verse that talks about the first sermon of the Christian church that Peter gave (That Stephen was likely quoting as he dies) and you will note that the words Peter says are not specific to the difference between "standing or sitting"

Thus the use of "standing" by Stephen is just as correct as "sitting" as it was not really something that Peter made a big deal over in his sermon.


So its a moot point.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Who was the first God?

If there was a Father to our Father God, that makes him our spiritual grandfather. We should know our grandfather’s name. Right?

The Bible does not teach this though. We are told that the God of the Bible is the only all-powerful, all-knowing, everywhere-present God.

Isaiah 45:21-22 KJV
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

The Bible does not teach it as it is not important to our salvation.

And there is no other God beside God...none equal to or greater than Him, none that we will ever worship above Him. Even in His relationship of oneness in purpose with Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, God is still greater than both of them.

The counsel given here is to not worship false idols and always remember that the fulness of our worship goes to Him...and always will.

This continuous theme and teaching and theme throughout the Bible is given to and applies to every human who ever has been and ever will be born on this earth that God created.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Who was the first God?

If there was a Father to our Father God, that makes him our spiritual grandfather. We should know our grandfather’s name. Right?

The Bible does not teach this though. We are told that the God of the Bible is the only all-powerful, all-knowing, everywhere-present God.

Isaiah 45:21-22 KJV
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

The Bible does not teach it as it is not important to our salvation.

And there is no other God beside God...none equal to or greater than Him, none that we will ever worship above Him. Even in His relationship of oneness in purpose with Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, God is still greater than both of them.

The counsel given here is to not worship false idols and always remember that the fulness of our worship goes to Him...and always will.

This continuous theme and teaching and theme throughout the Bible is given to and applies to every human who ever has been and ever will be born on this earth that God created.

"....all the ends of the earth..."

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

if the Father and God of Jesus is also our Father and God, as the book of John quotes Jesus affirming, then we should know our Father's name. Right ?

So what is it?

Yahweh.......

[Yodas_Prodigy]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

The Bible does not teach it as it is not important to our salvation.

Then why don't we find it in the BOM, D & C, the Pearl of Great Price, or the King Follette Discourse?

Originally Posted by MickeyS

And there is no other God beside God...none equal to or greater than Him, none that we will ever worship above Him. Even in His relationship of oneness in purpose with Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, God is still greater than both of them.

Is Jesus God? Is the Holy Spirit God? Isn't the Father's Father God? Aren't the Gods who came before Elohim greater than he?

Originally Posted by MickeyS

The counsel given here is to not worship false idols and always remember that the fulness of our worship goes to Him...and always will.

No...

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Yahweh.......

Wrong. That is NOT that name of Jesus' Father in Heaven.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Yodas_Prodigy

Then why don't we find it in the BOM, D & C, the Pearl of Great Price, or the King Follette Discourse?..

I just answered that

Aren't the Gods who came before Elohim greater than he?

Not as far as concerns us. Again, this is not important to our salvation

(snipped) sorry, I asked you an irrelevant question here, please disregard

No...

No, what? This isn't about worshiping false gods? Putting faith in anyone other than God? This isn't warning of the dangers of praying unto a god who "cannot save"?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

yes..Stephen quotes an Old Test Scripture, and that in doing so he is making the claim that this person Jesus was the Christ talked about in the Old Test verse..

But you may ask..."Where did Stephen get this idea for being on the "right hand" ?

I believe the answer is that he got the idea to say this from listening to Peter on the Day of Pentecost.

If you check out the story about that event, you will see https://www.biblegateway.com/p***age/?search=Acts+2

"Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear."




I believe what we read in the last words of Stephen is the final teaching of him to the Jews who were killing him at the time.
He quotes the teaching that he likely heard from Peter, who in the very first sermon of the Christian church does make use of these words about the "right hand of God" as it actually is taken out of the Old test verse written by King David.


So Stephen is quoting a sermon by Peter, and Peter was quoting a verse likely written by David.




The expression that David made use of was a common idea that being that the "right hand" was a place of honor due to it being not the "left hand" as the left hand was the hand that everyone at that time cleaned their **** with.

You keep wanting to make this a metaphor--but give no real reason for it other than you think so.

If this is a metaphor alone--would we see this?

1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

How do you account for the host not just standing on the right hand, but the left as well?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

You keep wanting to make this a metaphor.....

Im just saying what the text is saying...

Peter gave a sermon that was the very start of the Christian Church.
it caused the movement to begin to spread....

A few days later, there was an attack against one of the leading members of this new movement, an attack against one of the men that had been with the 12 from the beginning .

In the last stages of this attack, the man gave reference to that same first sermon that Peter gave.

In the sermon that Peter gave, Peter is quoting, (more or less), an Old test verse that was written by King David.

While in the thing David wrote there might be a reference to the difference between sitting and standing, the truth is that first sermon the guy heard Peter make, Peter does not consider that difference as being what he wanted to teach on.

So it does not even come up in his sermon!

So this is why you might see a difference in people talking about "sitting" in one Text, whereas in another verse about the same important concept of authority we might read about "standing"

The difference here is moot.



Peter did not consider it worth debating to death, so I dont now too...

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I believe what we read in the last words of Stephen is the final teaching of him to the Jews who were killing him at the time.
He quotes the teaching that he likely heard from Peter, who in the very first sermon of the Christian church does make use of these words about the "right hand of God" as it actually is taken out of the Old test verse written by King David.

So Stephen is quoting a sermon by Peter, and Peter was quoting a verse likely written by David.

The expression that David made use of was a common idea that being that the "right hand" was a place of honor due to it being not the "left hand" as the left hand was the hand that everyone at that time cleaned their **** with.

Are you implying that what Stephen saw before he was stoned to death was just a quote?

Stephen was preaching, the crowd didn't like what he had to say. What follows is not any sort of quote. It goes directly into what happened to Stephen.

Stephen speaking....

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

What happened next...

54 ¶ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Then he speaks again...

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

The text is quite clear... Stephen looked into heaven and saw God & Jesus... Then he declared what he saw

Just read the text, it's quite clear

And yes, it would be completely irrelevant whether Christ was sitting or standing. The relevant part is that Stephen SAW HIM.

[Berean]

Duplicate post.

[Berean]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Are you implying that what Stephen saw before he was stoned to death was just a quote?

Stephen was preaching, the crowd didn't like what he had to say. What follows is not any sort of quote. It goes directly into what happened to Stephen.

Stephen speaking....

52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers

53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

What happened next...

54 ¶ When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Then he speaks again...

56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

The text is quite clear... Stephen looked into heaven and saw God & Jesus... Then he declared what he saw

Just read the text, it's quite clear

And yes, it would be completely irrelevant whether Christ was sitting or standing. The relevant part is that Stephen SAW HIM.

I disagree that Stephen actually "saw" God with his eyes. Since no one can see God and live, clearly he saw a vision.

“But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.’”

No one can see God and live.

“I will cause all my goodness to p*** in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. . . . But . . . you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live” (Exodus 33:19–20). To protect Moses, God put him “in a cleft in the rock” and covered him with His hand as He p***ed by (verse 22). “Then,” God promised, “I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen” (verse 23). The terms face, hand, and back in Exodus 33 should not be taken literally, and face to face, being idiomatic, is also metaphorical.

For that same reason, neither did Joseph Smith see "God." He may have seen something else, but it clearly was not God.

[Berean]

And the important part of Stephen's vision is that Jesus is at the Right Hand of God.

Question: "Why does Scripture emphasize the right hand of God?"

Answer: The Scripture has several words translated "right" and the usage of the term, "right hand" ranges from a direction, to the opposite of wrong, what is just or what conforms to an established standard, and to a place of honor or authority. In the case of division or appointment in the Bible, the right hand or right side came first, as when Israel (Jacob) divided the blessings to Joseph's sons before he died (Genesis 48:13-14).

In addition, a person of high rank who put someone on his right hand gave him equal honor with himself and recognized him as possessing equal dignity and authority. And this is what the Apostle Paul writes of Jesus Christ in Ephesians. "And what is the surp***ing greatness of His power toward us, the ones believing according to the working of His mighty strength which He worked in Christ in raising Him from the dead, and He seated Him at His right hand in the heavenlies, far above all principality and authority and power and dominion, and every name being named, not only in this world, but also in the coming age" (Ephesians 1:19-21). Here we see God exalting Jesus above all others by seating Him at the right hand of the Father.

The term "God's right hand" in prophecy refers to the Messiah to whom is given the power and authority to subdue His enemies (Psalm 110:1; Psalm 118:16). We find a quote in Matthew 22:44 from Psalm 110:1, which is a Messianic Psalm. "The Son of David" is claimed by the LORD Jesus Christ as He is the "greater son of David" or the Messiah. In this p***age of Matthew 22, Jesus questions the Pharisees about who they think the "Christ" or the Messiah is. "While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, Saying, What think ye of Christ? Whose son is He? They say unto him, The Son of David. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make Thine enemies thy footstool? If David then call Him Lord, how is He his son?" (Matthew 22:41-45, KJV). The position of the Messiah is at God's right hand.

The fact that Jesus Christ is at the "right hand of God" was a sign to the disciples that Jesus had indeed gone to heaven. In John 16:7-15, Jesus told the disciples that He had to go away and He would send the Holy Spirit. So the coming of the Holy Spirit in the upper room on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-13) was proof positive that Jesus was indeed in heaven seated at the right hand of God. This is confirmed in Romans 8:34 where the Apostle Paul writes that Christ is sitting at God's right hand making intercession for us.

Therefore, what we can say is that "God's right hand" refers to the Messiah, the LORD Jesus Christ and He is of equal position, honor, power and authority with God (John 1:1-5). The fact that Christ is "sitting" refers to the fact that His work of redemption is done and when the fullness of the gentiles is brought in (Romans 11:25), Christ's enemies will be made His footstool as the end of the age comes, all prophecy is completed, and time is no more. (http://www.gotquestions.org/right-hand-God.html)

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Berean

I disagree that Stephen actually "saw" God with his eyes. Since no one can see God and live, clearly he saw a vision.

“But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.’”

No one can see God and live.

“I will cause all my goodness to p*** in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. . . . But . . . you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live” (Exodus 33:19–20). To protect Moses, God put him “in a cleft in the rock” and covered him with His hand as He p***ed by (verse 22). “Then,” God promised, “I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen” (verse 23). The terms face, hand, and back in Exodus 33 should not be taken literally, and face to face, being idiomatic, is also metaphorical.

For that same reason, neither did Joseph Smith see "God." He may have seen something else, but it clearly was not God.

"Full of the Holy Spirit" that might have had something to do with it.

If he didn't see God, who did he see and why was it allowed in the Bible if it were inaccurate?

If you believe in an "omnipotent" God who can do anything, you don't think He could make it so man could see Him? That's interesting, because in another post you stated "your God" wasn't bound by any laws of physics....but now I guess He is?

How do you reconcile that?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

"Full of the Holy Spirit" that might have had something to do with it.

If he didn't see God, who did he see and why was it allowed in the Bible if it were inaccurate?

If you believe in an "omnipotent" God who can do anything, you don't think He could make it so man could see Him? That's interesting, because in another post you stated "your God" wasn't bound by any laws of physics....but now I guess He is?

How do you reconcile that?

Some great questions.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Berean

I disagree that Stephen actually "saw" God with his eyes. Since no one can see God and live, clearly he saw a vision.

“But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.’”

No one can see God and live.

“I will cause all my goodness to p*** in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. . . . But . . . you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live” (Exodus 33:19–20). To protect Moses, God put him “in a cleft in the rock” and covered him with His hand as He p***ed by (verse 22). “Then,” God promised, “I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen” (verse 23). The terms face, hand, and back in Exodus 33 should not be taken literally, and face to face, being idiomatic, is also metaphorical.

For that same reason, neither did Joseph Smith see "God." He may have seen something else, but it clearly was not God.

You are quoting from the Old Testament to make our point, but in the New Testament we learn: Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Berean

I disagree that Stephen actually "saw" God with his eyes. Since no one can see God and live, clearly he saw a vision.

“But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. ‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.’”

No one can see God and live.

“I will cause all my goodness to p*** in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the Lord, in your presence. . . . But . . . you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live” (Exodus 33:19–20). To protect Moses, God put him “in a cleft in the rock” and covered him with His hand as He p***ed by (verse 22). “Then,” God promised, “I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen” (verse 23). The terms face, hand, and back in Exodus 33 should not be taken literally, and face to face, being idiomatic, is also metaphorical.

For that same reason, neither did Joseph Smith see "God." He may have seen something else, but it clearly was not God.

You are quoting from the Old Testament to make our point, but in the New Testament we learn: Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Also, how do you decide when something should be metaphorical?