Shawn and the Mormon Caller

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

If a matter of great importance in your faith is determined by the ability and likelihood of a writer to push his little pinky finger down on the "SHIFT" key?...

Then your faith is a joke....

And yet Alan, we have had a long discussion on this very subject with you defending that the term "God" does not equate to "gods" as seen in the Bible:

Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

I guess the writers of the Bible also made their "pinky finger" shift of great importance as well.

[John T]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

If a matter of great importance in your faith is determined by the ability and likelihood of a writer to push his little pinky finger down on the "SHIFT" key?...

Then your faith is a joke....

Their faith is a joke, but that is besides the point, WHICH YOU MISSED.

The poster IS ACCUSING ME OF LYING DELIBERATELY (search the posts) even though I stated THREE TIMES, and GAVE A REFERENCE to the site from which I made a cut-and-paste.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I guess the writers of the Bible also made their "pinky finger" shift of great importance as well.

well...actually the Greek New Test is all caps.......the whole thing.....

You cant really defend any point by referring to caps or a lack of caps, as thats just a thing the editor of your bible tossed in to the mix and is not really part of any original writing...

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by John T

Their faith is a joke, but that is besides the point, WHICH YOU MISSED.

The poster IS ACCUSING ME OF LYING DELIBERATELY (search the posts) even though I stated THREE TIMES, and GAVE A REFERENCE to the site from which I made a cut-and-paste.

Will you please cut and paste my exact quote that leads you to believe I was accusing you of lying? I am not sure where you are lead to believe this, so if you could point it out for me, it would be appreciated.

Is this the line?

As you said to Apologette--I will just not see you as a liar, but someone who has repeated the lies told to you.

I can see where you misunderstood--but I tried to clarify many times that I did not see you as a liar, but someone who is repeating the lies told to you.

Here is what you stated:

You need to know that we Christians know that you are merely parroting the lies told to you; therefore I am NOT calling you a liar. Calling a person a liar speaks to the intention of the other, but stating that a person is repeating the lies told to him/her is really a statement of understanding, and is neither an insult nor a condemnation because it is merely a statement of fact.

Likewise, I noted you were merely parroting the lies told to you. Yet, I can see how the sentence was misread. Likewise, the reference you gave has also been misread, misrepresented, etc.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

well...actually the Greek New Test is all caps.......the whole thing.....

You cant really defend any point by referring to caps or a lack of caps, as thats just a thing the editor of your bible tossed in to the mix and is not really part of any original writing...

Yes, but when you quote it, you do not quote the Greek and you yourself have denoted the difference between the word "God" and "gods" in the Bible. Now you will not afford us to make the same distinction?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by John T

Their faith is a joke, but that is besides the point, WHICH YOU MISSED.

The poster IS ACCUSING ME OF LYING DELIBERATELY (search the posts) even though I stated THREE TIMES, and GAVE A REFERENCE to the site from which I made a cut-and-paste.

I had a JW at my door once, and he was also attempting to make a big deal out of the fact that in his New World Translation, the verse we were talking about at John 1:1 said that the Word was "a god" with the word "god" with a little "g".

To him this proved that Jesus was not God Almighty as the Father is called God with a big "G" while Jesus is called a god with a little 'g".



Thats when I pointed out that in the Greek New test its all written in all CAPS.
at first he doubted this fact so I had to show him.

[alanmolstad]

My guess is.....(and this is just a guess)....is that there are many little off-shoot religions out there that pick out one thing from the Bible, and build their whole new religion around it.
The idea that you can build a teaching around the idea of a word appearing in all CAPS is one of the more silly concepts I have run into, but I bet its not that unknown.

There are the "Holy Name" cults that are a lot like this..
There are the "King James Only" bunch that go crazy about that stuff.


It may be that many of these off-shoot religions were started by preachers who did not really know that much about the Bible, but were just clever enough to notice one little thing that most people did not know the true history about, and so that made the preachers look just a bit smarter than their followers.



To be honest, I really dont know of the Mormon CULT has a official position regarding the high-and-mighty meaning their people should place on the fact that this or that word in the King James appears in all CAPS ?

...or is this just one lone Mormon's dreamed up idea?

I don't know....


I do think the whole idea is very funny, and its not really something that I think I will run into much in the future...but its still a very funny item to try to use to defend a position.

[John T]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Will you please cut and paste my exact quote that leads you to believe I was accusing you of lying? I am not sure where you are lead to believe this, so if you could point it out for me, it would be appreciated.

FOR THE THIRD TIME

The ORIGINAL QUOTE

LDS President Lorenzo Snow. In June of 1840, Snow declared, “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.” Besides correctly illustrating the Latter-day Saint teaching that God was once a mere mortal man, this couplet also declares that man has the potential to become God. According to LDS theology, eternal life is synonymous with exaltation and godhood. In the words of LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, “Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation. . . They are gods.” (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 237).

from http://www.mrm.org/lorenzo-snow-couplet

LOOK IT UP

[John T]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I had a JW at my door once, and he was also attempting to make a big deal out of the fact that in his New World Translation, the verse we were talking about at John 1:1 said that the Word was "a god" with the word "god" with a little "g".

To him this proved that Jesus was not God Almighty as the Father is called God with a big "G" while Jesus is called a god with a little 'g".

You CONTINUE TO miss the point. It is NOT about upper case/lower case. That is a really STUPID argument.
Instead, the poster is accusing me of fabricating something in the cut-and-paste. THAT IS A ****ABLE LIE.

THEREFORE THE POSTER IS A PROVED LIAR.

Thats when I pointed out that in the Greek New test its all written in all CAPS.
at first he doubted this fact so I had to show him.

That is called UNICALS.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by John T

FOR THE THIRD TIME

The ORIGINAL QUOTE

LDS President Lorenzo Snow. In June of 1840, Snow declared, “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.” Besides correctly illustrating the Latter-day Saint teaching that God was once a mere mortal man, this couplet also declares that man has the potential to become God. According to LDS theology, eternal life is synonymous with exaltation and godhood. In the words of LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie, “Thus those who gain eternal life receive exaltation. . . They are gods.” (Mormon Doctrine, pg. 237).

from http://www.mrm.org/lorenzo-snow-couplet

LOOK IT UP

Well, I guess I will restate my point again and see if you get it.

The site you gave me references Mormon Doctrine. If you go to the page referenced, the only thing there is the very last part of what you posted. Therefore, the first part of what you posted and referenced is not in Mormon Doctrine. It is the writing of Bill McKeever.

So, this sentence--"Besides correctly illustrating the Latter-day Saint teaching that God was once a mere mortal man, this couplet also declares that man has the potential to become God" is misleading and untrue.

"mere mortal" is not true. "become God" is not true. Point blank--trust a Mormon, he has this wrong.

So, let me tell you exactly how it is misleading.

1. It leads the believer to think Mormons believe the God was not God prior to his birth on earth; that he is just like you and me; or in other words, was not God and then was born and then became God. Hence, mere mortal is not correct.
2. It dismisses the LDS theology that Jesus Christ was part of the Godhood prior to his birth and continued that place after his birth. Hence, mere mortal is not correct.
3. It dismisses the LDS theology that man, who is created by God, is eternal in nature; that we existed before we were born and will exist after we die. Hence, mere mortal is not correct.
4. It dismisses the LDS theology that Jesus Christ, who being the Son of God, who became a man, took on the sins of the world, and then died provides a way for us to follow Him. Hence, what "become God" is not correct."

Now, if you want to actually understand, "they are gods" as in terms of what it means to have eternal life---look to this teaching of Christ.

Mat 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

So, we see that those who follow and obey the Lord will become "ruler" over many things. I believe Alan has argued that the term "gods" in the Bible means ruler.

Here is another Bible verse that backs this:

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

And here is Christ telling the 12 apostles that they will sit on 12 thrones and judge. (The term "gods" is also used for judges.)

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by John T

You CONTINUE TO miss the point. It is NOT about upper case/lower case. That is a really STUPID argument.
Instead, the poster is accusing me of fabricating something in the cut-and-paste. THAT IS A ****ABLE LIE.

THEREFORE THE POSTER IS A PROVED LIAR.

Call me all the names you want. The truth is I never accused of tampering with what was cut and paste--but merely repeating the lies told to you (which you got from the site).

Here is a direct quote from you

Quote Originally Posted by John T View Post
Calling a person a liar speaks to the intention of the other, but stating that a person is repeating the lies told to him/her is really a statement of understanding, and is neither an insult nor a condemnation because it is merely a statement of fact.

I was pointing out that you were "repeating the lies told to him/her" and was not an insult, but merely a statement of fact.

From this point, you seem so caught up on the fact that you believe I was calling you a liar that you seem to not read for understanding anything I have said since this offense.

But back to Alan's point. The caps do make a difference. Whether or not the Greek was in all caps, in our Bibles today, we distinguish between the meaning of God and gods.

[alanmolstad]

try to play nice....

try to not look for a fight

[John T]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

try to play nice....

try to not look for a fight

Is that ALL you can say???????

The moderation stinks here! I nailed the poster with her STUPID AND ****ABLE LIES ABOUT ME.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

try to play nice....

try to not look for a fight

It's definitely been a strange conversation.

1. I believed he was paraphrasing a quote from Mormon doctrine incorrectly (siting from Mormon Doctrine--and another site I did not recognize.)
2. I pointed out that I recognized that he was just repeating what was told him as he acknowledged happens as times.
3. He insisted he just quoted it directly.
4. I then acknowledged is was not his paraphrasing but instead Bill McKeever, a non-mormon whose take on the Mormon Doctrine quote is incorrect. This seemed a perfect case in point of his acknowledgement that people do not try to lie, but just repeat the untruths they have been told.

From this exchange he:
1. Accused me of calling him a liar.
2. Began calling me a liar.
3. Began swearing, calling me names, and calling me a liar.

At this point, I think the conversation is unhealthy.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

It's definitely been a strange conversation.

1. I believed he was paraphrasing a quote from Mormon doctrine incorrectly (siting from Mormon Doctrine--and another site I did not recognize.)
2. I pointed out that I recognized that he was just repeating what was told him as he acknowledged happens as times.
3. He insisted he just quoted it directly.
4. I then acknowledged is was not his paraphrasing but instead Bill McKeever, a non-mormon whose take on the Mormon Doctrine quote is incorrect. This seemed a perfect case in point of his acknowledgement that people do not try to lie, but just repeat the untruths they have been told.

From this exchange he:
1. Accused me of calling him a liar.
2. Began calling me a liar.
3. Began swearing, calling me names, and calling me a liar.

At this point, I think the conversation is unhealthy.

true, but the Finger Lakes of New York really are beautiful.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

true, but the Finger Lakes of New York really are beautiful.

Yes, and I certainly need to get out more.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I had a JW at my door once, and he was also attempting to make a big deal out of the fact that in his New World Translation, the verse we were talking about at John 1:1 said that the Word was "a god" with the word "god" with a little "g".

To him this proved that Jesus was not God Almighty as the Father is called God with a big "G" while Jesus is called a god with a little 'g".



Thats when I pointed out that in the Greek New test its all written in all CAPS.
at first he doubted this fact so I had to show him.

I still remember the look on his face later...



vulnerable.....

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

I still remember the look on his face later...



vulnerable.....

So, to you this verses would read the same regardless:

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.--would read the same if it read "ye are Gods"?

Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:--would read the same if it said "God of Gods"--right?

To you there is no distinction between "God" or "gods" as you read the Bible, they are the same?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, to you this verses would read the same regardless:

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.--would read the same if it read "ye are Gods"?
.......
To you there is no distinction between "God" or "gods" as you read the Bible, they are the same?

It's not my use of the shift-keY that giVes the things i write their meanings...

Its not the shift-key that gives a verse in the bible its meaning...

Rather its the context.


The context of Psa 82:6 is found in the verses that wrap around it.
"But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler." In this very next verse I see the real contempt that the lord god has toward the rulers of this unjust world's system.

The context shows the lord god mocking the rulers.. .




so in other words,, im sure there are all sorts of different things that people can use if they pull a bible verse out of its context, to teach all matter of evil teachings .

thus im not surprised to see a guest here have some nutty ideas about allowing the use of the shift-key to determine their religious doctrines...

i would not be surprised one day to find a guest to this forum that claimed that the use of punctuation marks in the bible was the most important method in how to determine your personal salvation.....or who god is.....or what team will win the super bowl this year...



if thats your bag?....good luck with it.


but i tend to believe that when the berean jews that listened to the teachings of paul and would then open their scriptures to see if what paul was teaching was true?, were doing bit more that just checking to see if a word was capitalized...








it's not the shift key that makes my (or the bible's) words have their meanings....its their context.

[alanmolstad]

you can turn anything into a god just by worshiping it.
but they are not god by nature.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

It's not my use of the shift-keY that giVes the things i write their meanings...

Its not the shift-key that gives a verse in the bible its meaning...

Rather its the context.


The context of Psa 82:6 is found in the verses that wrap around it.
"But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler." In this very next verse I see the real contempt that the lord god has toward the rulers of this unjust world's system.

The context shows the lord god mocking the rulers.. .




so in other words,, im sure there are all sorts of different things that people can use if they pull a bible verse out of its context, to teach all matter of evil teachings .

thus im not surprised to see a guest here have some nutty ideas about allowing the use of the shift-key to determine their religious doctrines...

Well, it is the shift key that was determined to be used by many translations of the Bible. I guess they must have felt some reason to use it or not.

New International Version
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are "gods"'?

New Living Translation
Jesus replied, "It is written in your own Scriptures that God said to certain leaders of the people, 'I say, you are gods!'

English Standard Version
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’?

Berean Study Bible
Jesus replied, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I have said you are gods' ?

Berean Literal Bible
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law: 'I said you are gods'?

Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Jesus answered them, "Isn't it written in your scripture, I said, you are gods?

International Standard Version
Jesus replied to them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I said, "You are gods"'?

NET Bible
Jesus answered, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'?

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Yeshua said to them, “Is it not written in your law, 'I have said, “You are gods”'?”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus said to them, "Don't your Scriptures say, 'I said, "You are gods" '?

i would not be surprised one day to find a guest to this forum that claimed that the use of punctuation marks in the bible was the most important method in how to determine your personal salvation.....or who god is.....or what team will win the super bowl this year...



if thats your bag?....good luck with it.

It doesn't seem to be my bag...and why wait for a guest in the forum to care about punctuation marks. Christ cares or is the "one with the bag" as you state it, as He is the one who states---"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth p***, one jot or one ***tle shall in no wise p*** from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18. (Or For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.)

Christ understood that little changes that were occurring with the translations or understanding were changing the understanding of the Jews as to who He is---but he acknowledged that he understands and His law will be fulfilled as was written, not as we understand.

but i tend to believe that when the berean jews that listened to the teachings of paul and would then open their scriptures to see if what paul was teaching was true?, were doing bit more that just checking to see if a word was capitalized...

Yes. I completely agree--it needs to be understood in context. This was my complaint with JohnT's citation, Bill McKeever does not understand what he is reading and therefore puts his own spin on it which is incorrect.

That said, listen to what is stated "Ye are gods and children of the Most High." So, these unrighteous rulers-they are denoted as children of the Most High. How do you understand that in context?

it's not the shift key that makes my (or the bible's) words have their meanings....its their context.

I agree, but the shift key is used to help people understand the context.

I believe this is why Christ stated "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth p***, one jot or one ***tle shall in no wise p*** from the law, till all be fulfilled." Matthew 5:18. (Or For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.)

So, it appears that Christ is the person who makes the claim that commas and the little things that change the meaning of a translation do matter. In other words, He cares about where the commas are placed

[alanmolstad]

All of the Greek New Testament originals were written in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS with no spaces and probably no punctuation, and all of the earlier m****cripts are in this style, whether on parchment or papyrus.

This is because the Greek alphabet did not have punctuation until at least the II century, and there were no minscule (lower case) letters until much later.



context decides meanings....notthe shift key.


When the Jews put the words of Paul to the test they looked for context of the verse to see if what Paul said was true....
They did not just check the use of the shift key....LOL

The Bible Jesus and Paul read from, had no concept of upper and lower case letters...

Therefore any teacher today that attempts to teach that "christian doctrine" is decided by the use of upper and lower case letters in the Bible, is just pulling ideas out of thin air..

Jesus had no such teaching,





http://greek-language.com/grklinguist/?p=657

[alanmolstad]

Dr Walter Martin does address this matter of the big "G" / little "g"

here is a video I found where the point is raised by a CULT believer and answered by Walter.

Go to 52:00 point of the video....

[alanmolstad]

In the above video I have posted you see in the words of the lady the thinking of the member of a CULT on the big/little "g" issue.

The lady clearly believes that the difference between the use in her bible of the shift-key is how you determine Christian doctrine,

The lady points out that the Bible in her hands clearly has the word 'god' in small case, and so this proves to her 100% that the teachings of her church are supported by the Bible's text.

Walter Martin points out how silly her way of finding truth is..

Walter points out that you simply cant determine your Christian doctrine by just looking at word to check if it happened to be capitalized or not.


In a real study of the bible and in a real effort to understand the bible's teachings, you can't allow the editor's use or non-use of the shift key on his computer to determine your doctrines.


The context of a verse guide us to the understanding of its meanings......not the shift key....

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

All of the Greek New Testament originals were written in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS with no spaces and probably no punctuation, and all of the earlier m****cripts are in this style, whether on parchment or papyrus.

That's nice, but I gave you a verse from the Old Testament.

context decides meanings....notthe shift key.

I agree, so I asked you to explain this---"Ye are gods and children of the Most High." So, these unrighteous rulers-they are denoted as children of the Most High. How do you understand that in context?

Please explain why "ye are gods' is followed by the qualifier "and children of the Most High"? You are ignoring this. You seem to think this is all about context. Please, explain this why "and children of the Most High" is added. (Especially in light that you believe this should read "YE ARE GODS AND CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH"

Therefore any teacher today that attempts to teach that "christian doctrine" is decided by
the use of upper and lower case letters in the Bible, is just pulling ideas out of thin air..

Interesting argument when I have had so many christians argue with me the importance of denoting "gods" from God. But hey, if you state there is no difference, well--that is up to you.

Jesus had no such teaching,

Really--I gave you Christ's words from the New Testament that he spoke to the Jews regarding the Old Testament that is written in Hebrew. You seem to be caught up on what is Greek.