Saved By Grace Unto ****ation

[Berean]

According to Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon salvation has two definitions:

1. “Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever.”

2. “Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one’s mortal probation” (Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-670).

McConkie wrote that resurrection from the dead is synonymous with “salvation by grace alone” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 671).

He also wrote: “those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore be ****ed.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).

Tenth Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith didn't offer a lot of hope when he said, “There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:15). Smith agreed with Apostle Francis M. Lyman’s ***essment that “if we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well.”

Consequently, any Mormon who doesn't make it all the way to the celestial kingdom, by forsaking even the desire to sin, and in this lifetime, is sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire in the after-life.

Alma 34:34Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...

35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...

What are the requirements to make it to the celestial kingdom?

[No...] unfaithfulness, improvidence, hatred of God, lack of natural affection, high -mindedness, flattery, lustfulness, infidelity, indiscretion, backbiting, whispering, lack of truth, striking, brawling, quarrelsomeness, unthankfulness, inhospitality, deceitfulness, irreverence, boasting, arrogance, pride, double - tongued talk, profanity, slander, corruptness, thievery, embezzlement, despoiling, covenant - breaking, incontinence, filthiness, ignobleness, filthy communications, impurity, foolishness, slothfulness, impatience, lack of understanding, unmercifulness, idolatry, blasphemy, denial of the Holy Ghost, Sabbath breaking, envy, jealousy, malice, maligning, vengefulness, implacability, bitterness, clamor, spite, defiling, reviling, evil speaking, provoking, greediness for filthy lucre, disobedience to parents, anger, hate, covetousness, bearing false witness, inventing evil things, fleshliness, heresy, presumptuousness, abomination, insatiable appe***e, instability, ignorance, self-will, speaking evil of dignitaries, becoming a stumbling block....The Miracle of Forgiveness, pg. 25

Unless you're living ALL of the Commandments, you are not eligible for grace, nor exaltation.

In addition to this, President Monson’s April 2011 to-do list for faithful Latter-day Saints hoping to gain favor with God:

1. Go to the temple for themselves and the dead
2. Pay their ***hing
3. Contribute to the missionary fund
4. Be worthy of the priesthood
5. Be worthy to attend the temple
6. Qualify for a temple recommend
7. Use the priesthood to bless lives
8. Safeguard and treasure the priesthood
9. Avoid pornography, bad language and addictions
10. Do not watch movies and TV that portray bad behavior
11. Read the Book of Mormon
12. Gain a testimony
13. Obey the commandments
14. Pray regularly
15. Study scripture
16. Attend church
17. Attend seminary
18. Repent
19. Get married
20. Be careful in the choice of a spouse
21. Be loyal to spouses
22. Respect and love wives
23. Make any needed repairs to marriages
24. Do not allow marriages to be in jeopardy
25. Stand above the ways of the world
26. Be honorable and decent
27. Be above reproach
28. Go to the temple regularly
29. Keep temple ordinances as a goal
30. Put a picture of a temple in every bedroom
31. Teach children about the importance of the temple
32. Remember covenants made in the temple
33. Sacrifice whatever necessary to attend the temple
34. Follow in the footsteps of Christ
35. Remember the messages from General Conference
36. Read and study the Conference edition of Ensign magazine
37. Be good citizens and neighbors
38. Be examples of honesty and integrity

How's that working out for you Mormons?

OTOH, Christians have the ***urance that all of our sins are forgiven (Colossians 2:13), and we can anticipate living with God for eternity. Since Christians are justified in the sight of God by faith in Jesus Christ alone, only they can rest in knowing they are no longer under the wrath of God but are free from the law of sin and death (John 3:36; Romans 5:1,2).

By faith we have p***ed from death to life (John 5:24).

Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden light. Matt 11:30

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Berean

According to Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon salvation has two definitions:

1. “Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever.”

2. “Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one’s mortal probation” (Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-670).

McConkie wrote that resurrection from the dead is synonymous with “salvation by grace alone” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 671).

And he is right. The Bible teaches that all of Adam's family will be resurrected, so that has to include those who choose not to have saving faith in Christ. The bible also teaches that it is possible, through faithful discipleship, to attain a more excellent resurrection. That more excellent kind of resurrection is conditional. Only those who choose to be faithful disciples of christ will get it. What part of that biblical doctrine do you reject?

He also wrote: “those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore be ****ed.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).

Definition of "****"------------

late 13c., "to condemn," from Old French ****er "****, condemn; convict, blame; injure," derivative of Latin ****are "to adjudge guilty; to doom; to condemn, blame, reject," from noun ****um "damage, hurt, harm; loss, injury; a fine, penalty," possibly from an ancient religious term from PIE *dap- "to apportion in exchange" [see Watkins]. The Latin word evolved a legal meaning of "pronounce judgment upon." Theological sense is first recorded early 14c.; the optative expletive use likely is as old.

(Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper)

Once a person understands the term, it seems pretty reasonable to agree that those who aren't sufficiently faithful to Christ to end up in God's presence, inheriting a mansion in His kingdom, will be judged and condemned.

Consequently, any Mormon who doesn't make it all the way to the celestial kingdom, by forsaking even the desire to sin, and in this lifetime, is sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire in the after-life.

that was your most egregiously wrong statement. The leaders you quoted never said that those who don't make it to the highest kingdom, spend eternity with Satan in a lake of fire.

That's like saying that if you don't get an "A" in a cl***, you must receive an "F." Most people probably realize the flaw in such thinking.

And the fact that you failed to note that McConkie describes the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms, and what types of people will go there and WON'T spend eternity with Satan in a lake of fire, suggests 2 possibilities---

either you don't know what you are talking about regarding McCconkie's teachings on this subject, and you just posted the false conclusions you got from some other source that is an enemy of the LDS church, and that's why you omitted the parts of it that prove you wrong, or

you do know that McConkie's teachings refute your conclusion, and you deliberately omitted that part.

What are the requirements to make it to the celestial kingdom?

[No...] hatred of God, idolatry, lack of understanding, inventing evil things, ....

Are you saying that God WILL save LDS people--and let them into heaven--if on judgment day they hate God, lack understanding of Him, worship idols, and invent evil things???

I guess the Mormons have nothing to worry about, by your own admission.

Also, God isn't going to send you to hell with Satan for eternity for not attending seminary. That is so wrong that you are probably the only person here who believes that anyone else here believes it.

[Berean]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

And he is right. The Bible teaches that all of Adam's family will be resurrected, so that has to include those who choose not to have saving faith in Christ.

I think you're one of the first LDS to admit McConkie is right about anything.

And no, the Bible does not teach that those who do NOT have saving faith in Christ are saved. (You'll have to point me to those verses). That's why they call it "saving faith."

Originally Posted by Phoenix

The bible also teaches that it is possible, through faithful discipleship, to attain a more excellent resurrection. That more excellent kind of resurrection is conditional. Only those who choose to be faithful disciples of christ will get it. What part of that biblical doctrine do you reject?

Where does it teach that? You just told us faith wasn't necessary, now you say it is?

The closest thing Scripture says to there being different levels of heaven is found in 2 Corinthians 12:2, “I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows.” Some interpret this as indicating that there are three different levels of heaven, a level for “super-committed Christians” or Christians who have obtained a high level of spirituality, a level for “ordinary” Christians, and a level for Christians who did not serve God faithfully. This view has no basis in Scripture.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Definition of "****"------------

late 13c., "to condemn," from Old French ****er "****, condemn; convict, blame; injure," derivative of Latin ****are "to adjudge guilty; to doom; to condemn, blame, reject," from noun ****um "damage, hurt, harm; loss, injury; a fine, penalty," possibly from an ancient religious term from PIE *dap- "to apportion in exchange" [see Watkins]. The Latin word evolved a legal meaning of "pronounce judgment upon." Theological sense is first recorded early 14c.; the optative expletive use likely is as old.

(Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper)

Once a person understands the term, it seems pretty reasonable to agree that those who aren't sufficiently faithful to Christ to end up in God's presence, inheriting a mansion in His kingdom, will be judged and condemned.

Sufficiently faithful according to the Book of Mormon means doing "all you can do." 2 Ne 25:23.

April 1998 Have You Been Saved?
Dallin H. Oaks
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

And what is “all we can do”? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded, “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ” (Moro. 10:32).

Sounds like you have to deny yourself of all ungodliness first. Then grace kicks in.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

that was your most egregiously wrong statement. The leaders you quoted never said that those who don't make it to the highest kingdom, spend eternity with Satan in a lake of fire.

That's like saying that if you don't get an "A" in a cl***, you must receive an "F." Most people probably realize the flaw in such thinking.

I know. Frightening, isn't it? But that's exactly what the Book of Mormon, the most correct[ed] book on earth clearly teaches. The problem is, no LDS that I know of actually believes in or follows the teachings of the Book of Mormon.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

And the fact that you failed to note that McConkie describes the terrestrial and telestial kingdoms, and what types of people will go there and WON'T spend eternity with Satan in a lake of fire, suggests 2 possibilities---

either you don't know what you are talking about regarding McCconkie's teachings on this subject, and you just posted the false conclusions you got from some other source that is an enemy of the LDS church, and that's why you omitted the parts of it that prove you wrong, or

you do know that McConkie's teachings refute your conclusion, and you deliberately omitted that part.

How about the possibility that you're wrong? McConkie, (while allegedly speaking for god) clearly taught that those who are not worthy of the Celestial Kingdom, are ****ed. Read it in the OP. It's not my idea. Just pointing it out.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Are you saying that God WILL save LDS people--and let them into heaven--if on judgment day they hate God, lack understanding of Him, worship idols, and invent evil things???

I guess the Mormons have nothing to worry about, by your own admission.

Why would God do that? And especially of you're LDS and must have completely forsaken sin in this lifetime, even the desire to sin? I've admitted no such thing. In fact, I'm telling you that, as far as I can tell, the Book of Mormon teaches that (since men are depraved and cannot stop sinning, and Mormons reject the free gift of salvation by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ) literally all LDS are hopelessly doomed to an eternity of torment in the lake of fire. See Moroni 10:32; 2 Ne 25:23; Alma 11:37, 34:32, 42:29,30; D&C 58:42,43 for example.

Originally Posted by Phoenix

Also, God isn't going to send you to hell with Satan for eternity for not attending seminary. That is so wrong that you are probably the only person here who believes that anyone else here believes it.

Again, don't blame me. It's one of the things on President Monson’s April 2011 to-do list for faithful Latter-day Saints hoping to gain favor with God. See the quote in the OP.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Berean

I think you're one of the first LDS to admit McConkie is right about anything

I highly doubt that. Enemies of the church might cherry pick the handful of controversial things he said, which amount to about 0.1% of all the things he said, and then try to make it look like the opposite--that members only agree with a handful of the things he said.

And no, the Bible does not teach that those who do NOT have saving faith in Christ are saved.

You are trying to change the issue--not very honest. The issue was whether the bible teaches that even the faithless would be RESURRECTED. If you are saying you reject the biblically supported LDS doctrine that all humans who are born into mortality will be resurrected, then you should say that and ask for the bible verses that support the doctrine.

Where does it teach that?

Info on the doctrine that all mortal humans will someday become immortal is supported here, and it states that your rejection of the doctrine puts you in a small, heterodox cult of Christianity:

"Universal resurrection or general resurrection is a doctrine held by most Christian denominations which posits that all of the dead who have ever lived will be resurrected from the dead, generally to stand for a Last Judgment... Many Evangelicals believe in a universal resurrection, but divided into two separate resurrections; at the Second Coming and then again at the Great White Throne....(Wikipedia article on universal resurrection)

Acts 24:15 plainly, clearly says that BOTH the just AND the unjust will be resurrected.

John 5:29 clearly mentions that the dead "shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation."

Heb. 11
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawn in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, des***ute, persecuted and ill-treated – 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.
39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

You just told us faith wasn't necessary,

I SAID IT WASNT NECESSARY TO BE RESURRECTED.

now you say it is?

WRONG. I still say that it isn't necessary to be resurrected.

No amount of dishonest games on your part will change what I said. I suggest you stop trying that. NOW.

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Berean

According to Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon salvation has two definitions:

1. “Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever.”

2. “Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one’s mortal probation” (Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-670).

McConkie wrote that resurrection from the dead is synonymous with “salvation by grace alone” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 671).

He also wrote: “those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore be ****ed.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).

Tenth Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith didn't offer a lot of hope when he said, “There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:15). Smith agreed with Apostle Francis M. Lyman’s ***essment that “if we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well.”

Consequently, any Mormon who doesn't make it all the way to the celestial kingdom, by forsaking even the desire to sin, and in this lifetime, is sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire in the after-life.

Alma 34:34Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...

35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...

What are the requirements to make it to the celestial kingdom?

[No...] unfaithfulness, improvidence, hatred of God, lack of natural affection, high -mindedness, flattery, lustfulness, infidelity, indiscretion, backbiting, whispering, lack of truth, striking, brawling, quarrelsomeness, unthankfulness, inhospitality, deceitfulness, irreverence, boasting, arrogance, pride, double - tongued talk, profanity, slander, corruptness, thievery, embezzlement, despoiling, covenant - breaking, incontinence, filthiness, ignobleness, filthy communications, impurity, foolishness, slothfulness, impatience, lack of understanding, unmercifulness, idolatry, blasphemy, denial of the Holy Ghost, Sabbath breaking, envy, jealousy, malice, maligning, vengefulness, implacability, bitterness, clamor, spite, defiling, reviling, evil speaking, provoking, greediness for filthy lucre, disobedience to parents, anger, hate, covetousness, bearing false witness, inventing evil things, fleshliness, heresy, presumptuousness, abomination, insatiable appe***e, instability, ignorance, self-will, speaking evil of dignitaries, becoming a stumbling block....The Miracle of Forgiveness, pg. 25

Unless you're living ALL of the Commandments, you are not eligible for grace, nor exaltation.

In addition to this, President Monson’s April 2011 to-do list for faithful Latter-day Saints hoping to gain favor with God:

1. Go to the temple for themselves and the dead
2. Pay their ***hing
3. Contribute to the missionary fund
4. Be worthy of the priesthood
5. Be worthy to attend the temple
6. Qualify for a temple recommend
7. Use the priesthood to bless lives
8. Safeguard and treasure the priesthood
9. Avoid pornography, bad language and addictions
10. Do not watch movies and TV that portray bad behavior
11. Read the Book of Mormon
12. Gain a testimony
13. Obey the commandments
14. Pray regularly
15. Study scripture
16. Attend church
17. Attend seminary
18. Repent
19. Get married
20. Be careful in the choice of a spouse
21. Be loyal to spouses
22. Respect and love wives
23. Make any needed repairs to marriages
24. Do not allow marriages to be in jeopardy
25. Stand above the ways of the world
26. Be honorable and decent
27. Be above reproach
28. Go to the temple regularly
29. Keep temple ordinances as a goal
30. Put a picture of a temple in every bedroom
31. Teach children about the importance of the temple
32. Remember covenants made in the temple
33. Sacrifice whatever necessary to attend the temple
34. Follow in the footsteps of Christ
35. Remember the messages from General Conference
36. Read and study the Conference edition of Ensign magazine
37. Be good citizens and neighbors
38. Be examples of honesty and integrity

How's that working out for you Mormons?

OTOH, Christians have the ***urance that all of our sins are forgiven (Colossians 2:13), and we can anticipate living with God for eternity. Since Christians are justified in the sight of God by faith in Jesus Christ alone, only they can rest in knowing they are no longer under the wrath of God but are free from the law of sin and death (John 3:36; Romans 5:1,2).

By faith we have p***ed from death to life (John 5:24).

Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden light. Matt 11:30

Oh my word
"Read and study the conference edition of Ensign magazine"
Yes....there will be an exam prior to entry.... That's ridiculously funny.

Could you please provide a link to this "checklist"? I'm interested in where you found it as I remember no talk by President Monson that year that had such an exhaustive list all in one place?

As for the "list", are you saying those things are wrong, or just "not necessary" as if you would only do the bare minimum "needed" if expected?


So, about this verse,

"48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (New Testament, Matthew, Matthew 5)

Is this not relevant?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Berean

According to Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon salvation has two definitions:

1. “Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever.”

2. “Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one’s mortal probation” (Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-670).

McConkie wrote that resurrection from the dead is synonymous with “salvation by grace alone” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 671).

He also wrote: “those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore be ****ed.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).

Tenth Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith didn't offer a lot of hope when he said, “There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:15). Smith agreed with Apostle Francis M. Lyman’s ***essment that “if we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well.”

Consequently, any Mormon who doesn't make it all the way to the celestial kingdom, by forsaking even the desire to sin, and in this lifetime, is sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire in the after-life.

Alma 34:34Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...

35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...

What are the requirements to make it to the celestial kingdom?

[No...] unfaithfulness, improvidence, hatred of God, lack of natural affection, high -mindedness, flattery, lustfulness, infidelity, indiscretion, backbiting, whispering, lack of truth, striking, brawling, quarrelsomeness, unthankfulness, inhospitality, deceitfulness, irreverence, boasting, arrogance, pride, double - tongued talk, profanity, slander, corruptness, thievery, embezzlement, despoiling, covenant - breaking, incontinence, filthiness, ignobleness, filthy communications, impurity, foolishness, slothfulness, impatience, lack of understanding, unmercifulness, idolatry, blasphemy, denial of the Holy Ghost, Sabbath breaking, envy, jealousy, malice, maligning, vengefulness, implacability, bitterness, clamor, spite, defiling, reviling, evil speaking, provoking, greediness for filthy lucre, disobedience to parents, anger, hate, covetousness, bearing false witness, inventing evil things, fleshliness, heresy, presumptuousness, abomination, insatiable appe***e, instability, ignorance, self-will, speaking evil of dignitaries, becoming a stumbling block....The Miracle of Forgiveness, pg. 25

Unless you're living ALL of the Commandments, you are not eligible for grace, nor exaltation.

In addition to this, President Monson’s April 2011 to-do list for faithful Latter-day Saints hoping to gain favor with God:

1. Go to the temple for themselves and the dead
2. Pay their ***hing
3. Contribute to the missionary fund
4. Be worthy of the priesthood
5. Be worthy to attend the temple
6. Qualify for a temple recommend
7. Use the priesthood to bless lives
8. Safeguard and treasure the priesthood
9. Avoid pornography, bad language and addictions
10. Do not watch movies and TV that portray bad behavior
11. Read the Book of Mormon
12. Gain a testimony
13. Obey the commandments
14. Pray regularly
15. Study scripture
16. Attend church
17. Attend seminary
18. Repent
19. Get married
20. Be careful in the choice of a spouse
21. Be loyal to spouses
22. Respect and love wives
23. Make any needed repairs to marriages
24. Do not allow marriages to be in jeopardy
25. Stand above the ways of the world
26. Be honorable and decent
27. Be above reproach
28. Go to the temple regularly
29. Keep temple ordinances as a goal
30. Put a picture of a temple in every bedroom
31. Teach children about the importance of the temple
32. Remember covenants made in the temple
33. Sacrifice whatever necessary to attend the temple
34. Follow in the footsteps of Christ
35. Remember the messages from General Conference
36. Read and study the Conference edition of Ensign magazine
37. Be good citizens and neighbors
38. Be examples of honesty and integrity

How's that working out for you Mormons?

OTOH, Christians have the ***urance that all of our sins are forgiven (Colossians 2:13), and we can anticipate living with God for eternity. Since Christians are justified in the sight of God by faith in Jesus Christ alone, only they can rest in knowing they are no longer under the wrath of God but are free from the law of sin and death (John 3:36; Romans 5:1,2).

By faith we have p***ed from death to life (John 5:24).

Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden light. Matt 11:30

Oh my word
"Read and study the conference edition of Ensign magazine"
Yes....there will be an exam prior to entry.... That's ridiculously funny.

Could you please provide a link to this "checklist"? I'm interested in where you found it as I remember no talk by President Monson that year that had such an exhaustive specific "list" as such?

As for the "list", are you saying those things are wrong, or just "not necessary" as if you would only do the bare minimum "needed" if expected?


So, about this verse,

"48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (New Testament, Matthew, Matthew 5)

Is this not relevant?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by MickeyS

Oh my word
"Read and study the conference edition of Ensign magazine"
Yes....there will be an exam prior to entry.... That's ridiculously funny.

Could you please provide a link to this "checklist"? I'm interested in where you found it as I remember no talk by President Monson that year that had such an exhaustive list all in one place?

As for the "list", are you saying those things are wrong, or just "not necessary" as if you would only do the bare minimum "needed" if expected?


So, about this verse,

"48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (New Testament, Matthew, Matthew 5)

Is this not relevant?

I find this list quite amazing. I mean, taking a good look at it--if people even did half of it--the world would be such a better place.

Be good citizens.

Follow the footsteps of Christ.

Be examples of honesty and integrity.

Avoid pornography.

Be worthy to attend the temple.

I read through this list--and I think my husband meets all but "contribute to the missionary fund."

You would think that this might look like some crazy, over-zealous, religious nut---but in reality, this is a guy who is out mowing the lawn on Sa****ay, taking an afternoon nap on Sundays, spends time with wood-working-and all around looks pretty normal. The good part is, he does make our marriage and God a priority. I am so grateful for this!

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Berean

According to Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon salvation has two definitions:

1. “Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever.”

2. “Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one’s mortal probation” (Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-670).

McConkie wrote that resurrection from the dead is synonymous with “salvation by grace alone” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 671).

He also wrote: “those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore be ****ed.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).

Tenth Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith didn't offer a lot of hope when he said, “There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:15). Smith agreed with Apostle Francis M. Lyman’s ***essment that “if we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well.”

Consequently, any Mormon who doesn't make it all the way to the celestial kingdom, by forsaking even the desire to sin, and in this lifetime, is sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire in the after-life.

Alma 34:34Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...

35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...

What are the requirements to make it to the celestial kingdom?

[No...] unfaithfulness, improvidence, hatred of God, lack of natural affection, high -mindedness, flattery, lustfulness, infidelity, indiscretion, backbiting, whispering, lack of truth, striking, brawling, quarrelsomeness, unthankfulness, inhospitality, deceitfulness, irreverence, boasting, arrogance, pride, double - tongued talk, profanity, slander, corruptness, thievery, embezzlement, despoiling, covenant - breaking, incontinence, filthiness, ignobleness, filthy communications, impurity, foolishness, slothfulness, impatience, lack of understanding, unmercifulness, idolatry, blasphemy, denial of the Holy Ghost, Sabbath breaking, envy, jealousy, malice, maligning, vengefulness, implacability, bitterness, clamor, spite, defiling, reviling, evil speaking, provoking, greediness for filthy lucre, disobedience to parents, anger, hate, covetousness, bearing false witness, inventing evil things, fleshliness, heresy, presumptuousness, abomination, insatiable appe***e, instability, ignorance, self-will, speaking evil of dignitaries, becoming a stumbling block....The Miracle of Forgiveness, pg. 25

Unless you're living ALL of the Commandments, you are not eligible for grace, nor exaltation.

In addition to this, President Monson’s April 2011 to-do list for faithful Latter-day Saints hoping to gain favor with God:

1. Go to the temple for themselves and the dead
2. Pay their ***hing
3. Contribute to the missionary fund
4. Be worthy of the priesthood
5. Be worthy to attend the temple
6. Qualify for a temple recommend
7. Use the priesthood to bless lives
8. Safeguard and treasure the priesthood
9. Avoid pornography, bad language and addictions
10. Do not watch movies and TV that portray bad behavior
11. Read the Book of Mormon
12. Gain a testimony
13. Obey the commandments
14. Pray regularly
15. Study scripture
16. Attend church
17. Attend seminary
18. Repent
19. Get married
20. Be careful in the choice of a spouse
21. Be loyal to spouses
22. Respect and love wives
23. Make any needed repairs to marriages
24. Do not allow marriages to be in jeopardy
25. Stand above the ways of the world
26. Be honorable and decent
27. Be above reproach
28. Go to the temple regularly
29. Keep temple ordinances as a goal
30. Put a picture of a temple in every bedroom
31. Teach children about the importance of the temple
32. Remember covenants made in the temple
33. Sacrifice whatever necessary to attend the temple
34. Follow in the footsteps of Christ
35. Remember the messages from General Conference
36. Read and study the Conference edition of Ensign magazine
37. Be good citizens and neighbors
38. Be examples of honesty and integrity

How's that working out for you Mormons?

OTOH, Christians have the ***urance that all of our sins are forgiven (Colossians 2:13), and we can anticipate living with God for eternity. Since Christians are justified in the sight of God by faith in Jesus Christ alone, only they can rest in knowing they are no longer under the wrath of God but are free from the law of sin and death (John 3:36; Romans 5:1,2).

By faith we have p***ed from death to life (John 5:24).

Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden light. Matt 11:30

Oh my word
"Read and study the conference edition of Ensign magazine"
Yes....there will be an exam prior to entry.... That's ridiculously funny.

Could you please provide a link to this "checklist"? I'm interested in where you found it as I remember no talk by President Monson that year that had such an exhaustive list all in one place?

As for the "list", are you saying those things are wrong, or just "not necessary" as if you would only do the bare minimum "needed" if expected?


So, about this verse,

"48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (New Testament, Matthew, Matthew 5)

Is this not relevant?

[MickeyS]

Originally Posted by Berean

According to Mormon Apostle Bruce McConkie, Mormon salvation has two definitions:

1. “Unconditional or general salvation, that which comes by grace alone without obedience to gospel law, consists in the mere fact of being resurrected. In this sense salvation is synonymous with immortality; it is the inseparable connection of body and spirit so that the resurrected personage lives forever.”

2. “Conditional or individual salvation, that which comes by grace coupled with gospel obedience, consists in receiving an inheritance in the celestial kingdom of God. This kind of salvation follows faith, repentance, baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and continued righteousness to the end of one’s mortal probation” (Mormon Doctrine pp. 669-670).

McConkie wrote that resurrection from the dead is synonymous with “salvation by grace alone” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 671).

He also wrote: “those who gain only this general or unconditional salvation will still be judged according to their works and receive their places in a terrestrial or a telestial kingdom. They will, therefore be ****ed.” (Mormon Doctrine, p. 669).

Tenth Mormon President Joseph Fielding Smith didn't offer a lot of hope when he said, “There will not be such an overwhelming number of the Latter-day Saints who will get there” (Doctrines of Salvation 2:15). Smith agreed with Apostle Francis M. Lyman’s ***essment that “if we save one-half of the Latter-day Saints, that is, with an exaltation in the celestial kingdom of God, we will be doing well.”

Consequently, any Mormon who doesn't make it all the way to the celestial kingdom, by forsaking even the desire to sin, and in this lifetime, is sealed to Satan for eternity in the lake of fire in the after-life.

Alma 34:34Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis , that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal...

35For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you;...

What are the requirements to make it to the celestial kingdom?

[No...] unfaithfulness, improvidence, hatred of God, lack of natural affection, high -mindedness, flattery, lustfulness, infidelity, indiscretion, backbiting, whispering, lack of truth, striking, brawling, quarrelsomeness, unthankfulness, inhospitality, deceitfulness, irreverence, boasting, arrogance, pride, double - tongued talk, profanity, slander, corruptness, thievery, embezzlement, despoiling, covenant - breaking, incontinence, filthiness, ignobleness, filthy communications, impurity, foolishness, slothfulness, impatience, lack of understanding, unmercifulness, idolatry, blasphemy, denial of the Holy Ghost, Sabbath breaking, envy, jealousy, malice, maligning, vengefulness, implacability, bitterness, clamor, spite, defiling, reviling, evil speaking, provoking, greediness for filthy lucre, disobedience to parents, anger, hate, covetousness, bearing false witness, inventing evil things, fleshliness, heresy, presumptuousness, abomination, insatiable appe***e, instability, ignorance, self-will, speaking evil of dignitaries, becoming a stumbling block....The Miracle of Forgiveness, pg. 25

Unless you're living ALL of the Commandments, you are not eligible for grace, nor exaltation.

In addition to this, President Monson’s April 2011 to-do list for faithful Latter-day Saints hoping to gain favor with God:

1. Go to the temple for themselves and the dead
2. Pay their ***hing
3. Contribute to the missionary fund
4. Be worthy of the priesthood
5. Be worthy to attend the temple
6. Qualify for a temple recommend
7. Use the priesthood to bless lives
8. Safeguard and treasure the priesthood
9. Avoid pornography, bad language and addictions
10. Do not watch movies and TV that portray bad behavior
11. Read the Book of Mormon
12. Gain a testimony
13. Obey the commandments
14. Pray regularly
15. Study scripture
16. Attend church
17. Attend seminary
18. Repent
19. Get married
20. Be careful in the choice of a spouse
21. Be loyal to spouses
22. Respect and love wives
23. Make any needed repairs to marriages
24. Do not allow marriages to be in jeopardy
25. Stand above the ways of the world
26. Be honorable and decent
27. Be above reproach
28. Go to the temple regularly
29. Keep temple ordinances as a goal
30. Put a picture of a temple in every bedroom
31. Teach children about the importance of the temple
32. Remember covenants made in the temple
33. Sacrifice whatever necessary to attend the temple
34. Follow in the footsteps of Christ
35. Remember the messages from General Conference
36. Read and study the Conference edition of Ensign magazine
37. Be good citizens and neighbors
38. Be examples of honesty and integrity

How's that working out for you Mormons?

OTOH, Christians have the ***urance that all of our sins are forgiven (Colossians 2:13), and we can anticipate living with God for eternity. Since Christians are justified in the sight of God by faith in Jesus Christ alone, only they can rest in knowing they are no longer under the wrath of God but are free from the law of sin and death (John 3:36; Romans 5:1,2).

By faith we have p***ed from death to life (John 5:24).

Jesus said my yoke is easy and my burden light. Matt 11:30

Oh my word
"Read and study the conference edition of Ensign magazine"
Yes....there will be an exam prior to entry.... That's ridiculously funny.

Could you please provide a link to this "checklist"? I'm interested in where you found it as I remember no talk by President Monson that year that had such an exhaustive list all in one place?

As for the "list", are you saying those things are wrong, or just "not necessary" as if you would only do the bare minimum "needed" if expected?


So, about this verse,

"48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (New Testament, Matthew, Matthew 5)

Is this not relevant?