Why should anyone believe

[Christian]

joseph smith's tall tales. After all, before whitewashing of his 'history' by the mormons, joseph smith was shown to be a liar, peepstone gazer, swindler, and a conman. Didn't change much when he 'got religion' either as far as I can see. . .

comments?

[alanmolstad]

Most of the time Joe would convince a young girl to sleep with him by telling her that "God has given you to me"

That story worked a lot of times with the right types of girls.
But there is the account in the record where the normal spiel that Smith would use to bed a female just did not convince her.

In the end, he falls back on the standard idea of a John.....he offered the young girl some cold cash.

$5 bucks...


It kinda shows you what Joe thought of his so-called "wives" in the end......

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

joseph smith's tall tales. After all, before whitewashing of his 'history' by the mormons, joseph smith was shown to be a liar, peepstone gazer, swindler, and a conman. Didn't change much when he 'got religion' either as far as I can see. . .

comments?

Every story has two sides.

The fact of the matter is that men who believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and live by the revelations he taught are faithful, good men who honor their wives and God.

As Christ taught, Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.--the proof lies in what we see today.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Every story has two sides.

The fact of the matter is that men who believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and live by the revelations he taught are faithful, good men who honor their wives and God.

As Christ taught, Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.--the proof lies in what we see today.

I do not think they believed or thought he was a prophet. I have come to the conclusion that Brigham Young and other prominent early Mormon leaders saw a good thing to exploit and a cash cow. They saw how to hoodwink people and get power and control over them. I have seen little that convinces me otherwise.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

I do not think they believed or thought he was a prophet. I have come to the conclusion that Brigham Young and other prominent early Mormon leaders saw a good thing to exploit and a cash cow. They saw how to hoodwink people and get power and control over them. I have seen little that convinces me otherwise.

From a Mormon and observing my life compared to lives of my non-Mormon friends---we are not controlled, this is not some type of cash cow. You give your ***hes to your pastor and he lives off of it. We give our ***hes and see how it is spend--back on us in church buildings, temples, education, our well-being. Do you know that after buildings, the second largest budget in the church is education. A group who is trying to "control" as you say, would not spend so much effort on making sure that their members are educated.

"Mormons are significantly more likely than the population overall to have some college education. Six-in-ten Mormons (61%) have at least some college education, compared with half of the overall population." Pew Research

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

From a Mormon and observing my life compared to lives of my non-Mormon friends---we are not controlled, this is not some type of cash cow. You give your ***hes to your pastor and he lives off of it. We give our ***hes and see how it is spend--back on us in church buildings, temples, education, our well-being. Do you know that after buildings, the second largest budget in the church is education. A group who is trying to "control" as you say, would not spend so much effort on making sure that their members are educated.

"Mormons are significantly more likely than the population overall to have some college education. Six-in-ten Mormons (61%) have at least some college education, compared with half of the overall population." Pew Research

You obviously have not heard of brainwashing.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

You obviously have not heard of brainwashing.

To add to my comment above, the North Koreans 'educate' their people too. This does not mean that the people of North Korea are getting the truth, a real education, or knowledge how to apply that education correctly.

It does mean that the North Korean people are being taught what their government wants them to know, information that props up their despotic regime not undermine it.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

You obviously have not heard of brainwashing.

You can believe that if you want to; but I suppose you should worry if you have been brainwashed or propagandized.

For someone who has lived it, I have a pretty darn good life--I have a degree, my husband an advanced degree--we live well; my children live well.

And as far the fruits--I have peace, I have married an honorable and faithful husband who works hard in our behalf. I'll take that kind of brainwashing, if that is what you want to call it.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

To add to my comment above, the North Koreans 'educate' their people too. This does not mean that the people of North Korea are getting the truth, a real education, or knowledge how to apply that education correctly.

It does mean that the North Korean people are being taught what their government wants them to know, information that props up their despotic regime not undermine it.

Ha, you have been brainwashed if you believe this is the type of education we get. Is it hard for you to accept that Mormons are better educated on average? Or that we score higher on knowing the Bible than Christians?

"However, even after controlling for levels of education and other key demographic traits (race, age, gender and region), significant differences in religious knowledge persist among adherents of various faith traditions. Atheists/agnostics, Jews and Mormons still have the highest levels of religious knowledge." Pew Research (but I suppose you believe that Pew has been brainwashed as well to come up with these stats.)

You are actually quite humorous, any other funny comments that have nothing to do with Pew researched reality?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Every story has two sides.

The fact of the matter is that men who believe Joseph Smith was a prophet and live by the revelations he taught are faithful, good men who honor their wives and God.

As Christ taught, Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.--the proof lies in what we see today.

Let's see now, thousands of folks following a false prophet to hell, MULTIPLE mormonisms (reorganized, temple lot, community of Christ, fundamentalists, and over 145 others. . .I have listed the names, dates, and places before, want them again?. . .EACH of those claiming to be THE ONLY TRUE ONE). SOME FRUIT!

A false prophet who was a womanizer, a letch, and an adulterer, a peepstone gazer, common conman who tried to shoot his way out of jail.

One who taught false gods, a false gospel, and an overall false religion.

Yes, there are men who follow the pope who are faithful, honor their wives and their god.

Yes indeed, WE CAN see his "fruits.' And they are EVIL.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

Let's see now, thousands of folks following a false prophet to hell, MULTIPLE mormonisms (reorganized, temple lot, community of Christ, fundamentalists, and over 145 others. . .I have listed the names, dates, and places before, want them again?. . .EACH of those claiming to be THE ONLY TRUE ONE). SOME FRUIT!

A false prophet who was a womanizer, a letch, and an adulterer, a peepstone gazer, common conman who tried to shoot his way out of jail.

One who taught false gods, a false gospel, and an overall false religion.

Yes, there are men who follow the pope who are faithful, honor their wives and their god.

Yes indeed, WE CAN see his "fruits.' And they are EVIL.

My husband, who believes Joseph Smith is a prophet and follows his teachings:

1. Has faith in God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and does his best to follow the example of Jesus Christ.
2. Was a virgin when we married appreciating that God expects him to be virtuous as well as women.
3. Has worked diligently to be a good provider and protector of his family.
4. Is humble and treats others kindly.

The proof to me is not in your gossip of the past, but in what is real today. If someone made all of the accusations you do about Joseph Smith about my next door neighbor today, I would still have a struggle understanding the truth because it is hard, without a court of law (and sometimes even then it is hard to know) to really know the full story. Yet, you want me to believe that you fully comprehend the character of a man from words of some who loved and some who hated him 200 years ago?

As Christ taught, Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Do you deny these words of Christ?

[DrDavidT]

For someone who has lived it, I have a pretty darn good life--I have a degree, my husband an advanced degree--we live well; my children live well.

You are not a rare example

Ha, you have been brainwashed if you believe this is the type of education we get. Is it hard for you to accept that Mormons are better educated on average? Or that we score higher on knowing the Bible than Christians?

so do atheists but that doesn't make atheism correct and Christianity wrong. You a have heard of the verse, demons disguise themselves as angels of light haven't you? Instead of your blind devotion to your cult, you would be wise to step back and take a real look at what you believe. For example, where are mormon initiation rites mentioned in the Bible?

Do you deny these words of Christ?

Who says you are the good tree? Mormonism teaches things Jesus and the apostles never taught and Paul cursed such people in Galatians.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

You are not a rare example

Exactly, Mormons are well educated--not brainwashed.

so do atheists but that doesn't make atheism correct and Christianity wrong. You a have heard of the verse, demons disguise themselves as angels of light haven't you? Instead of your blind devotion to your cult, you would be wise to step back and take a real look at what you believe. For example, where are mormon initiation rites mentioned in the Bible?

The point is that Mormons know the Bible better than Christians (and so do atheists) and yet you accuse us of not knowing the Bible; yet not only do Mormons, but also atheists. That little piece of information (not brainwashing) should give you pause in your attacks of others.

Oh, and I have heard of demons disguising themselves as an angel of light--but you can usually detect them by the fact that they only pretend to have "light" but in reality spend their time in the fruits of the flesh such as contention, strife, tearing others down.

Who says you are the good tree? Mormonism teaches things Jesus and the apostles never taught and Paul cursed such people in Galatians.

You don't know that, because you don't know the Bible as well as you should. Any one who reads the Bible understands that it is not the authority, but God is. He can do what he wants when he wants. And the proof of the good tree comes from how we live. The more truth you have an live by, the more you have the fruits (off the tree) of the Spirit.

[DrDavidT]

The point is that Mormons know the Bible better than Christians (and so do atheists) and yet you accuse us of not knowing the Bible; yet not only do Mormons, but also atheists. That little piece of information (not brainwashing) should give you pause in your attacks of others.

You may know some of the words of the bible but you are missing the key ingredient in understanding and actually knowing what the Bible says-- see John 16:13

Exactly, Mormons are well educated--not brainwashed.

You missed my point. Being educated does not mean one has the truth. It just means they know a lot of education and that does not include how to apply that information

You don't know that, because you don't know the Bible as well as you should

Your supposed education does not allow you to speak for me nor determine how well I know something.

Any one who reads the Bible understands that it is not the authority, but God is.

Your education has been wasted. The Bible is authoritative meaning that it comes from God and has his authority. God does not violate his word or he would be a hypocrite. You also demonstrate a lack of understanding of the biblical teaching of the word good fruit and how it applies to our lives. The Mormon Church (and its founder) does not possess the truth. if it did it would have a different scripture, one that has a little evidence to support it.

[DrDavidT]

Oh, and I have heard of demons disguising themselves as an angel of light--but you can usually detect them by the fact that they only pretend to have "light" but in reality spend their time in the fruits of the flesh such as contention, strife, tearing others down.

I missed this. You do not know how to detect them and if you knew the Bible as you claim, you would know the correct way to do it. Your arrogance is noted.

[Christian]

Julie posted:

My husband, who believes Joseph Smith is a prophet and follows his teachings:

1. Has faith in God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ and does his best to follow the example of Jesus Christ.

Joseph smith's 'version' of HIS god (the one of many little gods extant according to smith) and HIS imaginary 'jesus' (the one who is a 'spirit' brother of SATAN. In other words, your husband follows false gods.

2. Was a virgin when we married appreciating that God expects him to be virtuous as well as women.

That's nice. I am happy for you both.

3. Has worked diligently to be a good provider and protector of his family.
4. Is humble and treats others kindly.

Again, that's nice. I was neither a CHRISTIAN nor a virgin when I got married, and I am sorry for both.

The proof to me is not in your gossip of the past, but in what is real today.

Revealing the HISTORY of joe smith is NOT 'gossip of the past,' but is REVEALING THE TRUTH about your so-called 'prophet.

If someone made all of the accusations you do about Joseph Smith about my next door neighbor today, I would still have a struggle understanding the truth because it is hard, without a court of law (and sometimes even then it is hard to know) to really know the full story. Yet, you want me to believe that you fully comprehend the character of a man from words of some who loved and some who hated him 200 years ago?

No, from people who were newspaper reporters, some of whom were likely followers of joe smith, and from mormon documents kept by your religious sect. There is no reason AT ALL for me to believe your modern church's 'revised version' of a whitewashed joe.

As Christ taught, Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Do you deny these words of Christ?

I simply believe what the p***age says. Joe smith leads people to hell, following a false father god and a false christ. What kind of fruit is THAT? It's evil fruit, of course.

Joe smith was sent to jail where he had a gun smuggled in and tried to kill folks with it on the way out. MORE EVIL FRUIT.

Not 'gossip,' but RECORDED HISTORY.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

You may know some of the words of the bible but you are missing the key ingredient in understanding and actually knowing what the Bible says-- see John 16:13

Actually, it is your group that denies that one can know the spirit by what our heart tells us. John 16:13 speaks exactly to this. Isn't it interesting that Christ teaches that he will teach more by the Spirit? In other words, there was more.

You missed my point. Being educated does not mean one has the truth. It just means they know a lot of education and that does not include how to apply that information

Oh, I completely agree. One can be educated and still not wise. The point you made is that we are brainwashed. I stated that this is not the case. You have been propagandized. You are not unlike the Germans who came to see the Jews as the problem. They were not brainwashed, but propagandized into believing something about a religion that was not true.

Your supposed education does not allow you to speak for me nor determine how well I know something.

I am not basing my comments on my education, I am basing it on your obvious lack of understanding of what is in the Bible.

Your education has been wasted. The Bible is authoritative meaning that it comes from God and has his authority. God does not violate his word or he would be a hypocrite. You also demonstrate a lack of understanding of the biblical teaching of the word good fruit and how it applies to our lives. The Mormon Church (and its founder) does not possess the truth. if it did it would have a different scripture, one that has a little evidence to support it.

My education has been wasted? God is the authority, yes. But His Bible is only understood through His spirit. God does not violate his word, but men do which is why they feel to come to a place like this an belittle and put down others--which is the fruit of the flesh. I do not lack an understanding at all of what the good fruit is. You do or you would not feel to put down others.

My church does possess truth. This is why you see the good fruit of the spirit in our lives. And what other church understands the very basis of the Bible and the covenant made to Israel--which is to bring together a family that has been divided through the Atonement of Jesus Christ--or the covenant keeper--the bridegroom, sealing forever those to Him with His Father. The whole Bible is about family--and Christians miss this and then criticize Mormons for getting it.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

I missed this. You do not know how to detect them and if you knew the Bible as you claim, you would know the correct way to do it. Your arrogance is noted.

Or yours is:

2Co 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

In other words, don't look to what they say, but what they do.

The one great lie is it doesn't matter what you do, only what you say. What churches believe this?

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

I missed this. You do not know how to detect them and if you knew the Bible as you claim, you would know the correct way to do it. Your arrogance is noted.

you obviously know nothing about the bible and about Mormons.

[Christian]

Julie posted

Originally Posted by DrDavidT
You are not a rare exampl

Exactly, Mormons are well educated--not brainwashed.

Being 'educated' in mormon doctrine and mormon world-view IS a kind of brainwashing. It is leading you to a prescribed mindset in the same manner as the white supremecists raise and teach their children. They 'educate' them.

The point is that Mormons know the Bible better than Christians (and so do atheists) and yet you accuse us of not knowing the Bible; yet not only do Mormons, but also atheists. That little piece of information (not brainwashing) should give you pause in your attacks of others.

A very small percentage of the mormons may 'know the Bible' better than MANY Christians, but most do not. They know the mormon religion ad its world-view, and even perhaps some of the Bible text (usually RIPPED out of context, of course), but if mormons and atheists (same camp btw) KNEW the Bible, they would be neither mormon OR athiest, of course

Why? The answer is simple. . .

1 Cor 2:13-15 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
NKJV

Because the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness to you you don't receive them; you submit to joe smith's false religion instead.


Oh, and I have heard of demons disguising themselves as an angel of light--but you can usually detect them by the fact that they only pretend to have "light" but in reality spend their time in the fruits of the flesh such as contention, strife, tearing others down.

MY Bible tells me that we can tell them by their FRUITS, such as leading people to hell, false prophets, false gods (your daddy god is only one of MANY so-called 'gods' extant) and false christs (like the one who is prophesied by your 'prophet' to be a 'spirit-brother' of satan. . .

You don't know that, because you don't know the Bible as well as you should.

Of COURSE I don't. . .I have only STUDIED IT DILIGENTLY WITH THE HOLY GHOST for over 55 years now. . .NOT NEARLY AS LONG OR DILIGENTLY AS YOU HAVE. . .

Any one who reads the Bible understands that it is not the authority, but God is.

Of course, anyone who UNDERSTANDS the Bible understands that the Bible IS authority since it is literally the WORD OF GOD breathed out.

2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,(in the original-language Greek, literally "BREATHED OUT BY GOD. and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
NKJV


SCRIPTURE (THE BIBLE) is enough to make me COMPLETE, and THOROUGHLY EQUIPPED for God's Work. And you think YOU can do better?

He can do what he wants when he wants.

Perhaps YOUR god can lie and contradict Himself and go back on his word, but my God, the God of the Bible cannot.

And the proof of the good tree comes from how we live.

Let's see now. . .mormons have a high divorce rate, high rate of ****sexuals, high rate of unwed mothers, and a high rate of being 'jack' mormons (NOT living according to mormon 'standards.'). . .

Lots of SIN there. . .BAD FRUIT

The more truth you have an live by, the more you have the fruits (off the tree) of the Spirit.

Lets see now. . .JUDAS had more of the Truth than YOU DO, just how much fruit of the Spirit did HE HAVE?
Will YOU hang yourself from a tree as he did?

The earliest Christians (such as right after Pentecost) had VERY LITTLE KNOWLEDGE of Jesus and His teachings, yet they were made PERFECT in the eyes of God (they were forgiven and CLEANSED of every sin in God'S EYES).

But IF you become 'educated' enough (according to the ****sexuals) you will accept ****sexual behavior and 'gay marriage' as an 'acceptable alternate lifestyle.'

Only the HOLY SPIRIT LIVING WITHIN YOU WILL HELP YOU GLORIFY JESUS. Your religious sect won't. Joe smith's fictions won't. READ ROMANS 8:1-11, esp vs 9. TRY to understand what it says.

[Christian]

julie posted:

Or yours is:

2Co 11:14
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

In other words, don't look to what they say, but what they do.

And when someone worships a false god through a false 'spirit-brother-of-satan' 'christ,' their works are to worship falsely, and if they lead others to hell with them, then their end IS according to their works. . .they go to he||

The one great lie is it doesn't matter what you do, only what you say. What churches believe this?

No church I have ever heard of believes this. You cannot name EVEN ONE.
Do you make this junk up as you go?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

you obviously know nothing about the bible and about Mormons.

Yah, yah, OBVIOUSLY, nobody knows ANYTHING but you. . .

Your ignorance and arrogance are showing. . .

Got nothing of SUBSTANCE to offer?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

And when someone worships a false god through a false 'spirit-brother-of-satan' 'christ,' their works are to worship falsely, and if they lead others to hell with them, then their end IS according to their works. . .they go to he||

Yes, this is the one way you can tell when someone is teaching something false--when they believe that you can worship "falsely" and for that God will send you to hell, but on the other hand, do the works of Satan such as lie, steal, cheat (wow, Trump comes to mind here) and people will still look to them for salvation because they say the right thing.
[QUOTE]

No church I have ever heard of believes this. You cannot name EVEN ONE.

Calvinism seems to think it is all about being chosen and your behaviors make no difference. That goes so against the teachings of Christ, people should recognize it the leaders as "false prophets."

[DrDavidT]

Actually, it is your group that denies that one can know the spirit by what our heart tells us. John 16:13 speaks exactly to this. Isn't it interesting that Christ teaches that he will teach more by the Spirit? In other words, there was more.

I the words in bold & underlined them for emphasis that are mormon ideology not biblical teaching. The Bible teaches us:

Psalm 10:3
For the wicked boasts of his heart’s desire, And the greedy man curses and spurns the Lord.

Psalm 66:18
If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;

How do you know you are not being deceived and that your heart is telling you the truth?

The point you made is that we are brainwashed. I stated that this is not the case. You have been propagandized. You are not unlike the Germans who came to see the Jews as the problem. They were not brainwashed, but propagandized into believing something about a religion that was not true.

You are great at throwing out baseless accusations. You obviously do not know the correct definitions of the word 'brainwashed'.

I am not basing my comments on my education, I am basing it on your obvious lack of understanding of what is in the Bible.

Had to laugh at one as you keep accusing people they do not understand something when they all can see it is you whom you are talking about.

My church does possess truth

How can it possess the truth when its extra-biblical scriptures teach things contrary to what the Bible teaches? You really should do an honest comparison sometimes.

you obviously know nothing about the bible and about Mormons.

So funny and so wrong. The Mormons only use the Bible to fool those who do not understand that the Mormon church does not follow the Bible but their other scriptures.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

I the words in bold & underlined them for emphasis that are mormon ideology not biblical teaching. The Bible teaches us:

Psalm 10:3
For the wicked boasts of his heart’s desire, And the greedy man curses and spurns the Lord.

Psalm 66:18
If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear;

How do you know you are not being deceived and that your heart is telling you the truth?

Love how you stick to the Old Testament, when you can go directly to what Christ teaches:

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

So, our hearts can turn to the flesh or to God. I know my heart is telling me the truth when I experience the fruits of the spirit rather than the fruits of the flesh.

You are great at throwing out baseless accusations. You obviously do not know the correct definitions of the word 'brainwashed'.

Oh, so your accusations are not baseless. Brainwashed has a very specific meaning when done purposefully. Or were you throwing about just a shallow definition which is baseless?

Had to laugh at one as you keep accusing people they do not understand something when they all can see it is you whom you are talking about.

Oh, and I thought this is what you have been doing. Have you ever answered the question--as I have been waiting, no one has yet that I have seen there two questions:

1. Why does God call his "gods" or wicked rulers as have been explained to me "children of the Most High"?
2. What many things will those rule who are good and faithful servants when they enter into the rest of the Lord?

How can it possess the truth when its extra-biblical scriptures teach things contrary to what the Bible teaches? You really should do an honest comparison sometimes.

The point is, it doesn't, but just as the pharisees, you are blind to the truths right in front of you.

So funny and so wrong. The Mormons only use the Bible to fool those who do not understand that the Mormon church does not follow the Bible but their other scriptures.

Wait, I thought you found your truth through archaeological findings, are you now back to using the Bible?