Why should anyone believe

[BigJulie]

[

Originally Posted by Christian

[You can find 'statistics' to 'prove' anything you want, whether they reflect the Truth or not. After all, Trump (your hero) STILL won the popular vote in most populous states, didn't he? So[/COLOR][SIZE=4][FONT=arial black][COLOR=#000000][I][B] the SECULAR OPINIONS MUST BE RIGHT, huh?

I am beginning to believe you do not read my posts. I have never liked Trump and even told you I would not vote for him.

Don't you consider the THINGS OF GOD to be reality? Is Pew YOUR 'expert witness?'

You seem to want to go off on this as if my siting Pew meant I do not have faith. I merely sited it to show that research clearly does not agree that Mormons are uneducated or brainwashed.

Christian---I hope some day you can go back and read your posts and see how "unchristian" you sound--you put down, you smirk, and you contend. It is only because I have true christian friends I know that you are not representative of the whole.

[Christian]

big posted:

Okay, so you run your church like a business.

You indicated YOU KNEW where your religion got and spent its money.

No, but we have "budgets" that we have control over and spend--even the women.

So you have 'budgets.' BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW whether or not your religion is a cash cow for the folks ABOVE your 'budgets.' I seeeeeeeeeeeeee. So your bragging that you knew where the money came from and went in your religion was NOT TRUE AT ALL.

You would never know that by the ***s the graduates are offered. Forbes lists byu as #86 in school rankings (nationwide.)

PROVE IT. CITE where they do so in order that we may CHECK YOUR CLAIM to see if it is false or not.

And more mormons use pornography than any other religious group!

Or at least that is known about because it is not tallied when a person goes to a strip-bar. But yes, we do recognize this as a problem. I never said otherwise.
No, but certainly refutes the ***ertion that we are brainwashed which started this conversation.

FALSE. That is NOT what the OP SAYS it is about.

And WHEN AND WHERE was this 'research' done? Approximately 50% of the general UNSAVED PUBLIC has 'at least some college education. ' That includes CHRISTIAN HOME SCHOOLERS who have even a higher rate than your mormons do. And some of the world's most renowned intellectuals are atheists

It is PEW research. Are you not familiar with this research body? I only bring this up because of the ***ertion that Mormons are brainwashed. Clearly, we are not.

LOTS of CLAIMS FROM YOU, yet no REAL EVIDENCE. I SEEEEEEEEE.

And not 'brainwashed, but CLEARLY "educated/indoctrinated" into the mormon world view, just as the communists and north koreans into THEIR world views.

I have SEEN the mormon 'seminary' curriculums. . .IN THE SEMINARIES, remember? I KNOW what the curriculum is. . .FROM THE SOURCE.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Christian

You indicated YOU KNEW where your religion got and spent its money.

Yes. But our church acts as one cohesive group rather than a bunch of small churches like yours.

So you have 'budgets.' BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW whether or not your religion is a cash cow for the folks ABOVE your 'budgets.' I seeeeeeeeeeeeee. So your bragging that you knew where the money came from and went in your religion was NOT TRUE AT ALL.

It is true in that I can see where it is being spent. I am experiencing it. My church uses its ***hes wisely and does very well. This seems to bother other churches, but most churches do not have the amount of temples, church building, universities, seminary buildings, budgets, welfare. You think that the church just makes a lot of money for those in charge---but these are old men (the other criticism a lot of people make) who spend their time traversing the globe (instead of playing golf) to spread the gospel.

PROVE IT. CITE where they do so in order that we may CHECK YOUR CLAIM to see if it is false or not.

Gee, I said Forbes--I didn't realize it would be that hard for you to look up.

Here is the site and here is the stats they give: http://www.forbes.com/colleges/brigh...ng-university/

#86 Top Colleges
#72 in Private Colleges
#43 in Research Universities
#15 in the West

FALSE. That is NOT what the OP SAYS it is about.[/COLOR]

Read the post I responded to.

[Christian]

big posted:

Originally Posted by Christian
You indicated YOU KNEW where your religion got and spent its money.

Yes. But our church acts as one cohesive group rather than a bunch of small churches like yours.


Okay, your religion is a m***ive financial oligarchy. We understand that. But YOU don't know EXACTLY what the money given to YOUR congregation pays, etc.

In other words, YOU DON'T know where your congregation gets and spends its individual moneys. . .NO ACCOUNTING for your m***ive religion's funds

BTW JESUS SAID to enter by the NARROW GATE because FEW folks would be able to find it, so your 'one cohesive group' theory falls into the hole from which it came.

It is true in that I can see where it is being spent. I am experiencing it.


My church uses its ***hes wisely and does very well. This seems to bother other churches, but most churches do not have the amount of temples, church building, universities, seminary buildings, budgets, welfare. You think that the church just makes a lot of money for those in charge---but these are old men (the other criticism a lot of people make) who spend their time traversing the globe (instead of playing golf) to spread the gospel.

But ONLY within the realm of your own little 'budget,' NONE OF THE REST of the rest of the income and spending of your monitary gifts is available to you.

Of course the budget of the MUSLIMS is FAR GREATER THAN YOUR RELIGION's budget. BIG budgets do not impress me. FAITHFULNESS OF CHRISTIANS does.

I <snipped> the Forbes financial page. NO DOUBT your rich old rulers have money to toss around. The rich young ruler in the Bible did too. Unfortunately he couldn't seem to give it up.

Secular FINANCIAL pages do not impress me with the Spirituality of any of your folks.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

The Bible is authoritative meaning that it comes from God and has his authority.

Then maybe we should take heed to it's precepts:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Phoenix]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Then maybe we should take heed to it's precepts:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Maybe some people think that it possible to alter the Bible's teachings to the point that "NOT by faith alone" actually means
"YES by faith alone" --- the opposite of what it says.

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Christian

Of course the budget of the MUSLIMS is FAR GREATER THAN YOUR RELIGION's budget. BIG budgets do not impress me. FAITHFULNESS OF CHRISTIANS does.

Not sure why you bring up budgets then. But it does make me wonder if women are allowed to oversee budgets in your small congregation? We women do in the LDS faith--so I am curious if yours does.

[Christian]

big posted:

Not sure why you bring up budgets then. But it does make me wonder if women are allowed to oversee budgets in your small congregation? We women do in the LDS faith--so I am curious if yours does.

I seem to remember that it was YOU who brought up the subject. . .but then I might be mistaken. I was hit from behind in my car on Sa****ay. . .stopped at a light behind a line of other cars when someone hit me at 45 mph and jammed my car into the car ahead of me. Both the p***enger in the car ahead of me and I went to the hospital in ambulances. I am recovering, my only injuries being a bunch of messed up back muscles and a wrecked car that his insurance company is fiddling around evaluating.

The 16 year old kid that owned the car that hit me was the p***enger; his buddy was driving. The driver ran away from the scene of the wreck. . .don't know his status now.

ANYWAY. . .I am okay, praising the Lord that I was in a 1999 Jeep Grand Cherokee, the headrest was up in the right position and I was wearing a seatbelt.

But the last few days have been a blur of visiting friends, insurance company snafoos, and heating pads/ice packs.

So if my posts aren't EXACTLY their best, I apologize.

As for women and budgets, none are involved with our budgets right now, but I see no reason we couldn't have a woman treasurer. Our Elder board (about 10 men) adjust the budget when required.

We support fully or in part a BUNCH of missionaries all over the world. . .and each item is in the financial report we get every quarter.

And you?

[Christian]

big posted:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
big posted:



You can believe this if you want to, but when asked questions such as:
Do you believe you are made in the image and likeness of God, you would say--well, yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.

Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotton son of the Father, you would say--well yes, but not really.

Don't PRETEND to speak for ME. Your FALSE CLAIMS look STUPID TO ME. YOU may answer that way, but I would not.

Okay, do tell--do you really believe you are made in the image and likeness of God?


Already asked multiple times and answered multiple times. God is a Spirit, He is invisible, and He has the characteristics of personhood.

I have a Spirit that is invisible and have the characteristics of personhood too.

Why do you believe the liar joe smith when he pretends God the Father begat millions and millions of 'spirit babies?' HOW MANY 'begotten sons' do YOU believe in?

Do you really believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father--if your answer is yes--then exactly how do you mean?

How do I think Jesus is the ONLY SON FATHERED BY THE FATHER (that IS the meaning of the word 'begotten,' btw). joey smith's theory about God 'begetting' all sorts of 'spirit children' tries to make God out to be a liar.

God's Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she bore God a son.

Really, then you think this is literal:

And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
And it shall come to p*** in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep

There are literal and poetic things in the Bible. I did show you the p***age where they DID do those things. If you choose NOT to believe God, that is up to you.

[Christian]

big posted:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]

big posted:



Okay, do tell--do you really believe you are made in the image and likeness of God?


NKJV


I believe EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE. . .IT SAYS

Gen 1:26
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;
Do you really believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father--if your answer is yes--then exactly how do you mean?

Perhaps YOU think that 'has gotta mene' PHYSICAL image? Please POINT TO THE WORDS THAT SAY SO, THEN EXPLAIN THE FOLLOWING. . .
1) 1 Tim 1:1717 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
NKJV (If Genesis 1:26 were talking about a PHYSICAL body, how could He be INVISIBLE? Are YOU invisible?)
2) 1 Tim 6:16
16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see,to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
NKJV {Again, if Genesis 1:26 were referring to a PHYSICAL Body man could be able to SEE IT. Can people SEE YOU?)

3) Col 1:15-1615 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
NKJV

4)John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV
In REALITY GOD'S 'IMAGE" is a SPIRITUAL IMAGE, NOT A PHYSICAL ONE. God IS SPIRIT, not 'has one,' or 'will get one' BUT IS SPIRIT.

ARE YOU Spirit?

And IS a spirit flesh and bone?

Luke 24:39
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJVAccording to JESUS, a spirit does NOT have flesh and bones. Do YOU have flesh and bones?

So the IMAGE OF GOD does not have flesh and bones; it is SPIRITUAL.

Of course your false prophet joey smith wasn't aware of that. . .

Really, then you think this is literal:

And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the desolate valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all bushes.
And it shall come to p*** in that day, that a man shall nourish a young cow, and two sheep;

I could not find that p***age anywhere in my Bible, but I DID find this:

1 Sam 13:6
6 When the men of Israel saw that they were in danger (for the people were distressed), then the people hid in caves, in thickets, in rocks, in holes, and in pits.
NKJV

Apparently that sort of thing DID HAPPEN.

Of course, being mormon won't allow you to accept what is WRITTEN in the Bible without trying to "re-define" it to fit your predetermined theology and world view.

OF COURSE Isaiah 'musta bin' speaking in metaphors. . .after all, if he MEANT WHAT HE WROTE HE WOULD BE A LIAR (according to YOUR 'theology' and presuppositions).

Okay after your great big long explanation that can be shortened to "yes, but not really"--here is an answer to your first question


Not by any HONEST person, it could not be shortened that way. Why do you NOT like what GOD HAS SAID IN HIS WORD, THE BIBLE? THAT IS what I showed you, isn't it?

Moses wrote Genesis. Just a few chapters later he stated: Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

He makes it pretty clear what this means unless you think that your child is somehow different than you.

I am not God. Neither are you.

God is invisible to us, but he is clearly seen by some.

Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

You try to make things out to be literal when they are not.

If you have seen me, you have seen my eldest son. If you have seen my eldest son, you have seen me. Literally? Not necessarily; You might have physically SEEN only one of us, but then you will have seen the other "in" the one you physically saw.

How ignorant to not understand something so simple.

So clearly, he is not invisible to all.

See above quote.
Once again, invisible to us does not mean invisible to all as taught in the scriptures.

BY DEFINITION, 'invisible' means NOT ABLE to be seen, NOT JUST NOT THERE.

And to make it more clear: Jhn 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

In other words, Christ is now invisible to you--you have not seen him, but others have.

Christ is NOT INVISIBLE to me. He is just NOT VISIBLE to me. You seem to be blind to the difference. (does that mean your physical eyes no longer work?. . .UNDERWHELMING!)

Having a spirit does not disqualify someone from having a body.

John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV


The Bible does NOT say God HAS a spirit. It says GOD IS SPIRIT

This explanation is being told to a Samaritan women who cannot worship in Jerusalem. Christ is teaching her that she can still worship because God must be worshiped via the spirit.

John 4:24 those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
NKJV

But clearly, those who are righteous have beheld the Father and Christ at his right hand: Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Have they also seen His BACKSIDE that extends from East to West?

Since God is SPIRIT (John 4:24 above) and a SPIRIT does NOT have flesh and bones, will you call Jesus a liar?

Luke 24:39
Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
NKJV

Sorry, but your (and that of joey smith) theory simply does not float. TOO MANY CONTRADICTIONS between what joey taught you and what GOD SAID.

I'll stick with what GOD HAS SAID. You may follow joey (He is most certainly in Hell now) if you wish. I will pray for your soul.

[BigJulie]

You said:

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Christian

You try to make things out to be literal when they are not.

Yet, then you say

Sorry, but your (and that of joey smith) theory simply does not float. TOO MANY CONTRADICTIONS between what joey taught you and what GOD SAID.

So which is it? On one hand you state I try to take what God says as literal. On the other hand, you state that there are too many contradictions. The only reason you see contradictions is because I take God to mean what He says.

[Christian]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;169568]You said:

Yet, then you say



So which is it? On one hand you state I try to take what God says as literal. On the other hand, you state that there are too many contradictions. The only reason you see contradictions is because I take God to mean what He says.

Both. On one hand I point out you take his metaphors, poetry, and figurative language that is NOT meant to be taken literally (like 'if pigs could fly. . .we would have flying bacon to mean that pigs DO fly. . .), yet your theories contradict each other because of YOUR MISUSE OF SHORT PHRASES AND PARTIAL SENTENCES to try to 'justify' your theories.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

Both. On one hand I point out you take his metaphors, poetry, and figurative language that is NOT meant to be taken literally (like 'if pigs could fly. . .we would have flying bacon to mean that pigs DO fly. . .), yet your theories contradict each other because of YOUR MISUSE OF SHORT PHRASES AND PARTIAL SENTENCES to try to 'justify' your theories.

Except for the fact that you take Isaiah literally who speaks in poetic language --and to do this, you must make every other statement about God as metaphorical. That does not make any sense to me. You say believe what God says and when I do, you say--but not really.

My theories do NOT contradict each other at all--on the other hand, your must and your descriptions become more and more convoluted to the point you just begin to criticize the poster as you cannot explain what you believe in any fashion that anyone would take seriously.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Okay, do tell--do you really believe you are made in the image and likeness of God?

Genesis 1:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God is a Spirit, He is invisible, and He has the characteristics of personhood.

So--you don't believe Jesus Christ is God?

Luke 24:39---King James Version (KJV)
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Christian--is God a resurrected man of flesh and bones?