Where is the evidence that mormonism is true?

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

How can you when that God did not have Lucifer as a child. Lucifer was a rebellious angel not a god. The God of Abraham is vastly different from the Mormon god.

What??? I agree that Lucifer was an rebellious angel and not a god.

Maybe you should compare the God of the Bible with the Mormon claims about their god. No where does God of the Bible make the claims Mormons make about him.Nor do any ancient mss. make the claims Mormons make about God of the Bible.

Actually, if you read the Bible, you will find that everything we teach about God can be found in the Bible. However, the idea of the trinity is no where found in the Bible.

[DrDavidT]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;172600]

What??? I agree that Lucifer was an rebellious angel and not a god.




Actually, if you read the Bible, you will find that everything we teach about God can be found in the Bible. However, the idea of the trinity is no where found in the Bible.

Actually that is not true. Maybe you should try again.

[DrDavidT]

What They Believe- Mormonism

The Mormon Church or their real name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, makes many claims. One such claim is that they are Christian, well on this page you will see for yourself how untrue this claim is, as their beliefs vary very greatly from what is taught in the Bible. The source for this material is taken from http://www.carm.org/lds/mormon_beliefs.htm with little to no changes made to their work:

1. Book of Mormon

1. The book of Mormon is more correct than the Bible, (History of the Church, 4:461.)

2. Devil, the
1. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)
2. Jesus and Satan are spirit brothers and we were all born as siblings in heaven to them both, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)

3. God

1. God used to be a man on another planet, Mormon Doctrine, p. 321. Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, Vol 5, pp. 613-614; Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333.)
2. "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans..." (D&C 130:22).

4. God, becoming a god

1. After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god, (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 345-347, 354.)
2. "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them," (DC 132:20).

5. God, many gods

1. There are many gods, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163.)
2. "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3)

6. God, mother goddess

1. There is a mother god, (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443.)
2. God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children, (Mormon Doctrine p. 516.)

7. God, Trinity

1. The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)

8. Heaven

1. There are three levels of heaven: telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, Mormon Doctrine, p. 348.

9. Holy Ghost, the

1. The Holy Ghost is a male personage, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, (Le Grand Richards, Salt Lake City, 1956, page 118; Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, page 179.)

10. Jesus

1. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38).
2. "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 8: p. 115).
3. "Elohim is literally the Father of the spirit of Jesus Christ and also of the body in which Jesus Christ performed His mission in the flesh ..." (First Presidency and Council of the Twelve, 1916, God the Father, compiled by Gordon Allred, pg. 150).

11. Joseph Smith

1. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation [the context is the full gospel including exaltation to Godhood] outside the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 670.)

12. Pre-existence

1. We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth, (Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218.)
2. The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, page 129.)
3. The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, page 192.)

13. Salvation

1. "One of the most fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus Christ alone is all that is needed for salvation." (Miracle of Forgiveness, Spencer W. Kimball, p. 206.)
2. A plan of salvation was needed for the people of earth so Jesus offered a plan to the Father and Satan offered a plan to the father but Jesus' plan was accepted. In effect the Devil wanted to be the Savior of all Mankind and to "deny men their agency and to dethrone god." (Mormon Doctrine, page 193; Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, page 8.)
3. Jesus' sacrifice was not able to cleanse us from all our sins, (murder and repeated adultery are exceptions), (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 247, 1856.)
4. Good works are necessary for salvation, Articles of Faith, p. 92.)
5. There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God, (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188.)
6. "The first effect [of the atonement] is to secure to all mankind alike, exemption from the penalty of the fall, thus providing a plan of General Salvation. The second effect is to open a way for Individual Salvation whereby mankind may secure remission of personal sins (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 78-79.)
7. "As these sins are the result of individual acts it is just that forgiveness for them should be conditioned on individual compliance with prescribed requirements -- 'obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'" (Articles of Faith p. 79).
8. "This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts" (LDS Bible Dictionary, p. 697).
9. "We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).

14. Trinity, the

1. The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35.)
It is almost impossible to get an objective or third party opinion on basic Mormon beliefs because of the flood of Mormon websites that appear when one searches. One has to be careful in their pursuit of research that they do not get confused and pick a site they think is NOT Mormon when it really is.

http://dakotascba.com/Comparitive-Religions.php

as you can see, none of that is in the Bible

[BigJulie]

DavidT: I am not going to reply with quote on this whole thing because it is too big.

Here are the only scriptures you posted in it: (I am going to skip the rest because they are taken either from sources we do not deem as doctrine or not understood in full context. This is something that true researchers do not do.) All these points are also backed in the Bible.

"The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as mans..." (D&C 130:22).

Agreed--no argument. Jesus Christ also has a body of flesh and bones. God the Father is the express image of the Jesus Christ and not a duplicate of the Holy Ghost. ( Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high )

"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them," (DC 132:20)."

Agreed, notice "gods" with a little "g". This does not mean we are "God the Father", but it does mean that he gives us eternal life and power. (Mat 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.)

"And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light (Book of Abraham 4:3).

The term "God" or elohiym in Hebrew means "gods". This was interpreted as written. Hebrew has no upper or lower case, but there are 5 letters with different forms.

"We know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do," (2 Nephi 25:23).--

do you notice on this one you do not complete the verse? This is the one verse that non-Mormons like to extrapolate what it means...and always get it wrong.

I've read books like this, from poor researchers--you think they are making a point, only later to find out that they did sloppy work because it would be popular to raise people's fears and thus make money from it. *sigh*

[Christian]

[QUOTE=BigJulie;172600]

Actually, if you read the Bible, you will find that everything we teach about God can be found in the Bible. However, the idea of the trinity is no where found in the Bible.

IF THAT WERE TRUE, then you should be able to find where the Bible tells us
that many gods exist in many universes
that got used to be a man, changed (was exalted) into a god, but was god from all eternity
that Jesus Christ is a 'spirit-brother-of-satan', a demon like joe smith.

Of course YOU CANNOT since the Bible does NOT CONTAIN your 'joe smith' fantasies.

AND
The Bible DOES tell us
that the FATHER is God
Jesus is God
and
the Holy Ghost is God
AND
THERE IS ONLY ONE REAL GOD IN EXISTENCE ANYWHERE: (Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8 etc etc etc)

Joey smith fell for the same thing Eve did; he wanted to become 'like God.' And like Eve, he failed.

joey smith's ***** fantasies originated with joey smith, not with God.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

IF THAT WERE TRUE, then you should be able to find where the Bible tells us
that many gods exist in many universes

Understanding the small "g" in gods, and understanding this terms to mean rulers or those who rule:
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

that got used to be a man, changed (was exalted) into a god, but was god from all eternity

You should know this one easily:


Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

that Jesus Christ is a 'spirit-brother-of-satan',

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Lastly, we have the story of Cain and Able. One brother makes acceptable sacrifices, the other does not. The one who does not kills the one who does. If you understand the Bible, you see we are being taught who we are and the origin of our existence. Unless you also miss the point of the sacrifice, the flood, the escape from Egypt, the promised land, etc.

that the FATHER is God
Jesus is God
and
the Holy Ghost is God

Are you talking about John 1? Nope, it doesn't say anything about the trinity.

THERE IS ONLY ONE REAL GOD IN EXISTENCE ANYWHERE: (Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8 etc etc etc)

You have to use poetic Isaiah and have NOTHING from the New Testament? Show me where Christ uses a parable to teach the idea of the trinity. He is the great teacher, surely, if it is central to your theology, he would have taught it.

Joey smith fell for the same thing Eve did; he wanted to become 'like God.' And like Eve, he failed.

Actually, listen to what God said to Adam and Eve " Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

So, the great lie was not becoming like God in knowing good from evil, the great lie was that they would not die.

And from the New Testament: 1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

joey smith's ***** fantasies originated with joey smith, not with God.

And yet, they are in the Bible.

[Christian]

biggy posted:

Understanding the small "g" in gods, and understanding this terms to mean rulers or those who rule:
1Co 8:5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
OF COURSE ISAIAH 43:10, 44:6. 44:8, etc are talking about REAL GOD, NOT 'so-called' deities which is what that is referring to.

You should know this one easily:


Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Act 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

UNLESS YOU ARE JESUS, that does not apply to YOU or ANYONE ELSE. And YOU are NOT JESUS.

And you 'explain' YOUR 'god" HOW? HOW was he once a man who BECAME A GOD, and supposedly WAS A GOD FROM ALL ETERNITY? What kind of phony god do you follow?

that Jesus Christ is a 'spirit-brother-of-satan',

Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Lastly, we have the story of Cain and Able. One brother makes acceptable sacrifices, the other does not. The one who does not kills the one who does. If you understand the Bible, you see we are being taught who we are and the origin of our existence. Unless you also miss the point of the sacrifice, the flood, the escape from Egypt, the promised land, etc.

And YOU miss the point that YOUR 'god' is a demonic 'spirit-brother-of-satan' that has nothing to do with the REAL Jesus Christ at all.

that the FATHER is God
Jesus is God
and
the Holy Ghost is God

Are you talking about John 1? Nope, it doesn't say anything about the trinity.

WHICH CONCEPT DO YOU NOT BELIEVE?

That the Father is God?
or
That Jesus is God?
or
that the Holy Ghost is God?

OR

do you just not believe Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 44:8, etc etc etc?

Of course such labels as trinity, presidency, stake houses, etc etc etc do NOT occur in the Bible.

But the FACT THAT the FATHER is God
Jesus is God
and
the Holy Ghost is God
AND that there is ONLY ONE REAL GOD ANYWHERE

DOES

that Jesus Christ is a 'spirit-brother-of-satan',

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000cd]biggy posted:

So, you have taken to not just insulting me in your post, but by the very name you call me. How very un-Christian of you.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

So, you have taken to not just insulting me in your post, but by the very name you call me. How very un-Christian of you.

At least I did not refer to you as 'viper's brood' or 'whitewashed tomb!'

Oh, and would one of those be called 'unChristian too, according to YOU??

[Christian]

So you cannot answer the questions in the post and you must now try to EVADE THEM?

It figures. . .if evasion is all you have. . .

But then, in a cult. . .evasion IS all you have.

[Christian]

Apparently she cannot answer the questions so she must evade with whines. . .

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

IF THAT WERE TRUE, then you should be able to find where the Bible tells us
that many gods exist in many universes

1 Corinthians 8:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

that got used to be a man,

Since all of mankind's salvation rests on the fact God was once a man on this planet--and died for the sins of the whole world--I suppose one might pray that is true, for, with that--salvation is absent from man's hope.

And not only once a Man--but still:

1 Timothy 2:5---King James Version (KJV)
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Christian--one cannot claim Christianity, and deny God was once a man.