Where is the evidence that mormonism is true?

[DrDavidT]

still NOT evidence. you keep posting the same information hoping it will magically change into evidence but it won't work

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

still NOT evidence. you keep posting the same information hoping it will magically change into evidence but it won't work

Again--taint so!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.

If recorded witnesses of heavenly visitations are not evidence--then the Biblical text can't be considered evidence--right?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Again--taint so!! responses are neither convincing nor compelling.

If recorded witnesses of heavenly visitations are not evidence--then the Biblical text can't be considered evidence--right?

You need evidence to support their claim that they actually saw what they saw. All you have done is posted a claim not evidence to support the idea that those claims are true/

For the Bible we have real evidence supporting its words. the mormons have none for their claims

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

You need evidence to support their claim that they actually saw what they saw.

What is your evidence these did not see what they claimed?

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

What is your evidence these did not see what they claimed?

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

NO witnesses to the TEXT (which had to be CORRECTED) of the bom.

Where is YOUR evidence that they DID see anything. They were the cronies of joey smith and 'in on it' with him.

NONE of them were 'witnesses' to ANYTHING that was ON any plates. NOBODY 'translated' EVEN ONE WORD except joey smith who supposedly looked at a ROCK IN HIS HAT 'waiting' for a 'translation' to appear.

Of course that "translation" has had to have over 4,000 CORRECTIONS made to it since the first printing (EASILY observable once you get photocopies of the first printing for yourself to COMPARE TO THE CURRENT VERSION).

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000cd]NO witnesses to the TEXT (which had to be CORRECTED) of the bom.

The Book of Mormon is full of witnesses to the things which were written in the text--just as the Bible is. All translations go through a "correction" process. Most translations are composed of varying texts from one another.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Book of Mormon is full of witnesses to the things which were written in the text--just as the Bible is. All translations go through a "correction" process. Most translations are composed of varying texts from one another.

dberrie, The BoM, which Smith claimed to be the most correct book of any on earth, has undergone thousands of revisions. The BoM is a product of its time. Its a 19th century writing. Only the Holy Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. All other books were written by men.

You need to put your faith in Jesus Christ and not in a man.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

dberrie, The BoM, which Smith claimed to be the most correct book of any on earth, has undergone thousands of revisions.

Morning, Hogan:

Mistakes crept in---http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/2011/03/changes_to_the_bible_through_the_ages_are_being_st udied_by_new_orleans_scholars.html

The earliest works — some of Paul’s Epistles — date to about the middle of the first century. Like the Gospels that followed, they were written by hand, and successors were copied by hand. Mistakes occasionally crept in.

Moreover, with Christianity in its infancy and the earliest Christians still trying to clarify the full meaning of Jesus, his mission and his stories, the texts themselves sometimes changed from generation to generation, said Warren.

As archeologists and historians in later years uncovered more early m****cripts, each one hand-copied from some predecessor, they could see occasional additions or subtractions from a phrase, a verse or a story.

The changes are called “variants.”

Most changes are inconsequential, the result of mere copying errors, or the replacement of a less common word for a more common word.

But others are more important. They meant something.

For example, the famous tale in John’s Gospel in which Jesus challenges a mob about to stone a woman accused of adultery — “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” — is a variant that copyists began inserting into John at least 300 years after that Gospel first appeared.

In the conclusion to Mark, the description of Jesus appearing to various disciples after his resurrection does not appear in the earliest m****cripts.

And in Luke, the crucified Jesus’ plea that his executioners be forgiven “for they know not what they are doing” likewise does not appear in the earliest versions of his Gospel.

What’s at work here, Warren said, is that even after the 4th century church definitively settled on the books it accepted as divinely inspired accounts of the Christian vision, some of the texts within those books were still subject to slight changes — and some had already seen changes since being first published.

A true story

Warren said the story of the adulterous woman in John’s Gospel, for example, seems to be an account of an actual event preserved and treasured by the Christian community.

“People know it, and they like it,” he said. “It’s about a forgiveness that many times is needed in the church. Can you be forgiven on major sins?”

John had not included it, but Christians wanted to shoehorn it in somewhere, Warren said.

Warren said the story wanders across several early John m****cripts, appearing in a variety of places.

It even shows up in two early copies of Luke.

“But probably it was never part of John’s Gospel, in the original form,” he said.

By the 7th century, it had found its current home. It appears today in John 7:53-8:11.

Another change appears in Mark 9:29, when Jesus tells his disciples some demons can be driven out “only by prayer.”

Warren said 3rd century m****cripts added “and fasting” — probably as Christians’ own commentary on the power of that spiritual discipline, which was then becoming standard Christian practice.

In those and other cases, early Christian copiers are probably hoping to clarify a teaching or story for Christian audiences.

In effect, early copiers were taking what modern readers would recognize as study notes and slipping them into the texts, a process that began to tail off around the 9th century, Warren said.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Morning, Hogan:

Mistakes crept in---http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/2011/03/changes_to_the_bible_through_the_ages_are_being_st udied_by_new_orleans_scholars.html

The earliest works — some of Paul’s Epistles — date to about the middle of the first century. Like the Gospels that followed, they were written by hand, and successors were copied by hand. Mistakes occasionally crept in.

Moreover, with Christianity in its infancy and the earliest Christians still trying to clarify the full meaning of Jesus, his mission and his stories, the texts themselves sometimes changed from generation to generation, said Warren.

As archeologists and historians in later years uncovered more early m****cripts, each one hand-copied from some predecessor, they could see occasional additions or subtractions from a phrase, a verse or a story.

The changes are called “variants.”

Most changes are inconsequential, the result of mere copying errors, or the replacement of a less common word for a more common word.

But others are more important. They meant something.

For example, the famous tale in John’s Gospel in which Jesus challenges a mob about to stone a woman accused of adultery — “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” — is a variant that copyists began inserting into John at least 300 years after that Gospel first appeared.

In the conclusion to Mark, the description of Jesus appearing to various disciples after his resurrection does not appear in the earliest m****cripts.

And in Luke, the crucified Jesus’ plea that his executioners be forgiven “for they know not what they are doing” likewise does not appear in the earliest versions of his Gospel.

What’s at work here, Warren said, is that even after the 4th century church definitively settled on the books it accepted as divinely inspired accounts of the Christian vision, some of the texts within those books were still subject to slight changes — and some had already seen changes since being first published.

A true story

Warren said the story of the adulterous woman in John’s Gospel, for example, seems to be an account of an actual event preserved and treasured by the Christian community.

“People know it, and they like it,” he said. “It’s about a forgiveness that many times is needed in the church. Can you be forgiven on major sins?”

John had not included it, but Christians wanted to shoehorn it in somewhere, Warren said.

Warren said the story wanders across several early John m****cripts, appearing in a variety of places.

It even shows up in two early copies of Luke.

“But probably it was never part of John’s Gospel, in the original form,” he said.

By the 7th century, it had found its current home. It appears today in John 7:53-8:11.

Another change appears in Mark 9:29, when Jesus tells his disciples some demons can be driven out “only by prayer.”

Warren said 3rd century m****cripts added “and fasting” — probably as Christians’ own commentary on the power of that spiritual discipline, which was then becoming standard Christian practice.

In those and other cases, early Christian copiers are probably hoping to clarify a teaching or story for Christian audiences.

In effect, early copiers were taking what modern readers would recognize as study notes and slipping them into the texts, a process that began to tail off around the 9th century, Warren said.

What you cut and pasted is old news. For every link you give, there are hundreds of others which dispute it.

Dberrie, where are those "Mistakes" you claim crept in the Bible? Can you give me specific p***ages?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

What you cut and pasted is old news. For every link you give, there are hundreds of others which dispute it.

Dberrie, where are those "Mistakes" you claim crept in the Bible? Can you give me specific p***ages?

No--and neither would I--I don't make an issue out of any claim such as that. I believe it was you who brought up the issue, not me. You won't find that point being initiated by me. It's meaningless, IMO.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

No--and neither would I--I don't make an issue out of any claim such as that. I believe it was you who brought up the issue, not me. You won't find that point being initiated by me. It's meaningless, IMO.

So you ADMIT that there are mistakes in the bom, but you don't care? After all, it is supposedly a 'most perfect book" your god could make, according to smith. . .So I guess it DOESN'T MATTER at all! After all, joey smith made it all up anyway. . .so IT IS meaningless!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

So you ADMIT that there are mistakes in the bom, but you don't care?

Hi Christian:

Please go back and reread the posts. My reference--and Hogan's retort-- was to the "mistakes" in the Bible, not the Book of Mormon. And, IMO--as I have already stated--anything man lays his hand to--there will be mistakes found therein, including the Book of Mormon.

[DrDavidT]

so sad that some people have to derail a thread for their own agenda and disrespect the person who started the thread in the first place. such selfish people have no place in public discussions. I will be leaving soon, maybe after a few more posts. I have better things to do than watch my threads be destroyed

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

so sad that some people have to derail a thread for their own agenda and disrespect the person who started the thread in the first place. such selfish people have no place in public discussions. I will be leaving soon, maybe after a few more posts. I have better things to do than watch my threads be destroyed

Hi David:

IMO--most people have better things to do than to read straw man retorts. I believe we deserve better, even--real, Biblical truths--and that takes the Biblical scriptures to demonstrate:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One will find that doctrine in the testimony of Christ Himself--and in the LDS church.

But absent in faith alone theology.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi David:

IMO--most people have better things to do than to read straw man retorts. I believe we deserve better, even--real, Biblical truths--and that takes the Biblical scriptures to demonstrate:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One will find that doctrine in the testimony of Christ Himself--and in the LDS church.

But absent in faith alone theology.

I do not make strawman arguments. my comments are based upon what my old mormon acquaintances told me, my own research into mormonism and other fact filled investigations. all you have done is olympic style avoidance of everything presented because you are afraid to realize how bad your religious cult is.

all the mormons on here have done the same thing. they have closed their minds to the truth about God, Jesus and their own religious cult. they also fail to discuss like adults as they try to convince everyone they believe the bible when in reality everyone knows you do not. the failure of the resident mormons to post what they actually believe and are taught (even in their temple experience) renders discussion useless because the mormons refuse to be honest and continue to use the bible when the bible is the lesser of all mormon religious works

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi David:

IMO--most people have better things to do than to read straw man retorts. I believe we deserve better, even--real, Biblical truths--and that takes the Biblical scriptures to demonstrate:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

One will find that doctrine in the testimony of Christ Himself--and in the LDS church.

But absent in faith alone theology.

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

I do not make strawman arguments. my comments are based upon what my old mormon acquaintances told me, ....

But mine are based on the Biblical scriptures.

Care to engage the above scripture?

all the mormons on here have done the same thing. they have closed their minds to the truth about God, Jesus and their own religious cult. they also fail to discuss like adults as they try to convince everyone they believe the bible when in reality everyone knows you do not. the failure of the resident mormons to post what they actually believe and are taught (even in their temple experience) renders discussion useless because the mormons refuse to be honest and continue to use the bible when the bible is the lesser of all mormon religious works

That amounts to more straw man retorts. Do you use the Bible?

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[Christian]

[QUOTE=dberrie2000;172027]

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
But mine are based on the Biblical scriptures.

Care to engage the above scripture?

I've done it before, but you just IGNORED IT. The p***age was spoken BY a Jew, TO a Jew, and BOTH WERE UNDER THE OLD TESTAMENT LAW AT THE TIME.

So you are trying to MISapply scripture, to PRETEND that Christians are still under the OT LAW.

Do you use the Bible?

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

MORE ignorance by berry. WHAT IS the Gospel of God? Oh yes, ACCORDING TO GOD it is. . .

1 Cor 15:1-8
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.
3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
NKJV

So the Gospel of God is:

Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures
that He was buried and
that He rose on the third day
and
that He was SEEN ALIVE by MANY.

NOT ONE WORD about 'additional junk' like 'ordinances' etc
NOT ONE WORD about other junk

NOT IN CHRIST's Gospel as reflected by the Apostle Paul.

Your heathen cult has not taught you the truth. It constantly perverts the Bible to attempt to 'prove' its own agenda.

That is why your cult PRETENDS that
Your 'heavenly father' is one of many gods in many universes, and that your 'heavenly father was once a man, but never 'not god.'
Your 'christ' is a spirit-brother to the demon satan.
Your 'holy ghost' is another one of many gods

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

I've done it before, but you just IGNORED IT. The p***age was spoken BY a Jew, TO a Jew, and BOTH WERE UNDER THE OLD TESTAMENT LAW AT THE TIME.

Hi Christian:

As Paul stated--if the OT covenant was capable of bringing eternal life--then there would have been no need for the New Testament.

Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life:

Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

And so did the NT writers:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

So you are trying to MISapply scripture, to PRETEND that Christians are still under the OT LAW. Do you use the Bible?

I use it frequently--but that usually resorts in some kind of "out of context" retort:

Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world:

1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

NOT ONE WORD about 'additional junk' like 'ordinances' etc

So--you believe the command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--is "junk"?

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Only the Holy Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. All other books were written by men.

Hi Hogan:

All books were written by man--including the Bible.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

All books were written by man--including the Bible.

Then I guess Peter lied when he said: "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2Peter 1:21) I guess Paul lied too when he told Timothy that “All Scripture is God-breathed.."

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by hogan60

dberrie, The BoM, which Smith claimed to be the most correct book of any on earth, has undergone thousands of revisions. The BoM is a product of its time. Its a 19th century writing. Only the Holy Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. All other books were written by men.

You need to put your faith in Jesus Christ and not in a man.

good point...

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Originally Posted by Christian View Post
NO witnesses to the TEXT (which had to be CORRECTED) of the bom.

The Book of Mormon is full of witnesses to the things which were written in the text--just as the Bible is. All translations go through a "correction" process. Most translations are composed of varying texts from one another.

But didn't joey smith CLAIM his bom to be the 'most correct' book on earth? DIDN'T joey smith CLAIM that GOD put the text on the stone and it didn't go away until it was written down CORRECTLY?

Or did that mormon bishop friend of mine lie to me? I guess your bishops don't know your religion very well. . .

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Book of Mormon is full of witnesses to the things which were written in the text--just as the Bible is. All translations go through a "correction" process. Most translations are composed of varying texts from one another.

Let's see now. . .didn't joey smith claim the bom was 'the most perfect' of all?

Didn't joey smith supposedly GET HIS SUPPOSED TRANSLATION DIRECTLY FROM GOD? Did GOD GOOF?

Yes, we KNOW you want to try to debunk the Bible, but your bom trash does not compare.

NOT ONE WITNESS to the TEXT of the bom exists. . .There is NOT ONE WITNESS ANYWHERE that even ONE event, person, or place that joey smith invented ever existed ANYWHERE EVER IN REAL LIFE.
Joey smith simply invented it all.

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

Let's see now. . .didn't joey smith claim the bom was 'the most perfect' of all?

Didn't joey smith supposedly GET HIS SUPPOSED TRANSLATION DIRECTLY FROM GOD? Did GOD GOOF?

Yes, we KNOW you want to try to debunk the Bible, but your bom trash does not compare.

NOT ONE WITNESS to the TEXT of the bom exists. . .There is NOT ONE WITNESS ANYWHERE that even ONE event, person, or place that joey smith invented ever existed ANYWHERE EVER IN REAL LIFE.
Joey smith simply invented it all.

Did the devil take Jesus to the temple and the mountain or the other way around? (Compare Matthew and Luke). Did God goof? Of course not, but men do--even when writing things of God.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Let's see now. . .didn't joey smith claim the bom was 'the most perfect' of all?

Didn't joey smith supposedly GET HIS SUPPOSED TRANSLATION DIRECTLY FROM GOD? Did GOD GOOF?

NOT ONE WITNESS to the TEXT of the bom exists. . .

Yes, Christian there are witnesses to the text of the Book of Mormon:

Testimony of Three Witnesses
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris


Testimony of Eight Witnesses
Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith