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Thread: Where is the evidence that mormonism is true?

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    Default Where is the evidence that mormonism is true?

    I will list the topics that need evidence:

    the angel moroni

    the golden tablets

    the book of mormon

    any claim made by smith

    that the extra mormon scriptures are divine and true

    by evidence I mean real evidence not just what someone's heart tells them for hearts can be deceived
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    I will list the topics that need evidence:

    the angel moroni

    the golden tablets

    the book of mormon

    any claim made by smith

    that the extra mormon scriptures are divine and true

    by evidence I mean real evidence not just what someone's heart tells them for hearts can be deceived
    Hello,

    I have yet to hear the strong point that refutes #5’s “extra”. For the biblical references to care over that is so exact, so clearly defined makes any attempt to introduce another alarming.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    I will list the topics that need evidence:

    the angel moroni

    the golden tablets

    the book of mormon

    any claim made by smith

    that the extra mormon scriptures are divine and true

    by evidence I mean real evidence not just what someone's heart tells them for hearts can be deceived
    I would say the Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit, but I know you don't believe in that type of witness, but prefer archaeological findings or other things that have little to do with faith.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    so no evidence how sad. You do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you? Not one church father spoke about it, not one ancient historian both secular and religious mentioned this religious belief and so on.

    without a textual history you have nothing and simply adds support that Smith made it all up.
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    then speaking of evidence, the supposed reformed egyptian heiroglyphics that Smith said the book of Abraham was written in actually does not exist. There is no such language. On top of that when I say 'textual history', I am also referring to the fact that there is no ancient document recording this religious belief Smith was charged to restore. Not one.

    It never existed and nothing in our history points to the fact that it did. So what is Smith trying to rebuild? Nothing but a sexual and financial empire designed to fleece those who are dumb enough to belief Smith's con.

    Then we can get into the fact that there is not one piece of physical evidence supporting the book of Mormon. Not one and this comes from Mormon archaeologists.

    There is not even one shred of evidence for the great battle Smith said took place in the new World.

    So pony up Mormon believers where is any tidbit of physical information substantiated one thing Smith claimed?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    so no evidence how sad. You do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you? Not one church father spoke about it, not one ancient historian both secular and religious mentioned this religious belief and so on.

    without a textual history you have nothing and simply adds support that Smith made it all up.
    Oh, so once again--you do not believe in faith, but scientific evidence. Well, I am sure the athiests could have a field day with you with all of their "evidence".

    Oh, they did speak about it--you are just missing it. Not unlike the Pharisees missing the prophecies about Christ. Just like you, they did not see what was plainly there.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    then speaking of evidence, the supposed reformed egyptian heiroglyphics that Smith said the book of Abraham was written in actually does not exist. There is no such language. On top of that when I say 'textual history', I am also referring to the fact that there is no ancient document recording this religious belief Smith was charged to restore. Not one.

    It never existed and nothing in our history points to the fact that it did. So what is Smith trying to rebuild? Nothing but a sexual and financial empire designed to fleece those who are dumb enough to belief Smith's con.

    Then we can get into the fact that there is not one piece of physical evidence supporting the book of Mormon. Not one and this comes from Mormon archaeologists.

    There is not even one shred of evidence for the great battle Smith said took place in the new World.

    So pony up Mormon believers where is any tidbit of physical information substantiated one thing Smith claimed?
    Truly just your point of view. But even Christ had his detractors and critics. Why should there be anything less for His gospel?

    Really sad you do not understand faith.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Truly just your point of view. But even Christ had his detractors and critics. Why should there be anything less for His gospel?

    Really sad you do not understand faith.
    And if it was there you would easily be able to point to it and say 'see'. But you don't because it isn't and it does not exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Truly just your point of view. But even Christ had his detractors and critics. Why should there be anything less for His gospel?

    Really sad you do not understand faith.
    I understand faith alright it is you who do not.You also seem to believe in a god that leaves you without anything to strengthen your faith and defend your beliefs
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    I understand faith alright it is you who do not.You also seem to believe in a god that leaves you without anything to strengthen your faith and defend your beliefs
    Well, first lets say that saying a town existed or a language existed does not prove the Bible true. In fact, as I said there are many atheist detractors that would give you the same challenge. I won't go there.

    But let me explain my "proof" as you call it (and as Christ calls it).

    The way God proves something is not like the world proves something. The world uses science, God uses the Spirit.

    So my proof comes in these steps:

    1. Have a desire to know the truth and believe God answers prayers.
    2. Study God's words and message and pray and ask for an answer.
    3. Receive an answer via the Holy Ghost.
    4. Live by the answer you receive.
    5. See the "fruits" of the answer you receive which includes peace, joy, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness and faith.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Well, first lets say that saying a town existed or a language existed does not prove the Bible true. In fact, as I said there are many atheist detractors that would give you the same challenge. I won't go there.

    But let me explain my "proof" as you call it (and as Christ calls it).

    The way God proves something is not like the world proves something. The world uses science, God uses the Spirit.

    So my proof comes in these steps:

    1. Have a desire to know the truth and believe God answers prayers.
    2. Study God's words and message and pray and ask for an answer.
    3. Receive an answer via the Holy Ghost.
    4. Live by the answer you receive.
    5. See the "fruits" of the answer you receive which includes peace, joy, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness and faith.
    how do you double check to make sure you are not being deceived?
    how do you double check to make sure you are hearing form the HS given the biblical warning that demons disguise themselves as angels of light?
    I know a lot of peaceful, joyful, longsuffering, gentle, etc., unbelievers so that is not a good criteria to use.

    your blind faith leaves you vulnerable to lies and deception
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    and do people notice that NO evidence is offered by a Mormon for any of those things? At least with the Bible we can point to physical artifacts, cities, and other discoveries that support and prove the Bible.

    The book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures were written in the 19th century with a couple of them edited throughout the years but there is no ancient document providing any textual history for those words. There is NO God or god declaring that there is none like him and these are his words to be followed, only Smith and a few others speak for him unlike the bible which does have God speaking for himself and laying down the law.

    The same goes for the quran.

    The Bible enjoys a rich textual history, over 5000 for the NT alone, which provides verification that we have God's actual words, the book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures do not enjoy this support.

    The book of Mormon and the other mormon scriptures were basically written/translated by 1 man operating stones. The bible has approx. 40 different authors written over a span of 1500 years who were led by God to write and did not need stones to translate from some imaginary language. We can go to ancient m****cripts to double check translators work and do that double checking from the original languages.

    No one can go to the golden plates or use the stones to double check Smith and his cronies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    how do you double check to make sure you are not being deceived?
    By the outcome of my actions.
    how do you double check to make sure you are hearing form the HS given the biblical warning that demons disguise themselves as angels of light?
    By the outcomes we learn to discern between the Holy Ghost and anything else. This is what we are here to do---learn to recognize the spirit and the difference between love and lust, love and strife, peace versus contention, joy versus misery.

    It is also through the Holy Ghost we discern the meaning of scriptures so we are not mislead (such as the Pharisees were) in our readings.

    How do you double-check that you are not wrong?
    See above.
    I know a lot of peaceful, joyful, longsuffering, gentle, etc., unbelievers so that is not a good criteria to use.
    You will find that these "peace-ful joyful longsuffering non-believers believe in something that Christ taught and are living by it. Every truth has an outcome ***ociated with it. Honesty brings peace. Having patience brings long-suffering. Christ recognizes the source of truth lies with Him even if they do not. So, the trick is having a "fullness" of the truth. Many people have parts of the truth and find happiness in living by it. But any part of untruth that they live by, they will experience the negative fruits. Hopefully, this will help them seek for more truth.
    your blind faith leaves you vulnerable to lies and deception
    It is not blind at all. I would hate to ever tell a person to ignore what they feel. Guilt is a feeling. Love is a feeling. Hate is a feeling. It is when we become past feelings and think that our brains should over-ride our spirits, we are in trouble.

    Let me give you an example. There are three possible sources of truth: 1) Science 2) Other people's testimonies and 3) the Holy Ghost. The Bible is a grouping of testimonies of God and of Jesus Christ. However, not all people read it the same and so there are disagreements.

    So, let's say that there is a women who has an unwanted pregnancy.

    If she relies only on science, she may decide that baby is a viable human or a blob of cells depending on which research she reads and believes.
    Is she relies only on testimony, she may listen to the advice of others who have had an abortion or she may rely on the scriptures which tells us that murder is wrong.

    However if she relies on the Holy Ghost, she will be able to discern which science and which testimony she should rely on. She then has more than one witness as to what is right.

    You seem to think the first two are more important and should over-ride the Holy Ghost because you seem to think we are too easily deceived. I on the other hand think that the Holy Ghost is the most reliable witness as God works with us to recognize the Holy Ghost through the outcomes we experience.

    Hence the scripture:

    Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    God knows that he wants us to turn to Him and experience Him with our eyes, our ears and our hearts.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    how do you double check to make sure you are not being deceived?
    By the outcome of my actions.
    how do you double check to make sure you are hearing form the HS given the biblical warning that demons disguise themselves as angels of light?
    By the outcomes we learn to discern between the Holy Ghost and anything else. This is what we are here to do---learn to recognize the spirit and the difference between love and lust, love and strife, peace versus contention, joy versus misery.

    It is also through the Holy Ghost we discern the meaning of scriptures so we are not mislead (such as the Pharisees were) in our readings.

    How do you double-check that you are not wrong?
    See above.
    I know a lot of peaceful, joyful, longsuffering, gentle, etc., unbelievers so that is not a good criteria to use.
    You will find that these "peace-ful joyful longsuffering non-believers believe in something that Christ taught and are living by it. Every truth has an outcome ***ociated with it. Honesty brings peace. Having patience brings long-suffering. Christ recognizes the source of truth lies with Him even if they do not. So, the trick is having a "fullness" of the truth. Many people have parts of the truth and find happiness in living by it. But any part of untruth that they live by, they will experience the negative fruits. Hopefully, this will help them seek for more truth.
    your blind faith leaves you vulnerable to lies and deception
    It is not blind at all. I would hate to ever tell a person to ignore what they feel. Guilt is a feeling. Love is a feeling. Hate is a feeling. It is when we become past feelings and think that our brains should over-ride our spirits, we are in trouble.

    Let me give you an example. There are three possible sources of truth: 1) Science 2) Other people's testimonies and 3) the Holy Ghost. The Bible is a grouping of testimonies of God and of Jesus Christ. However, not all people read it the same and so there are disagreements.

    So, let's say that there is a women who has an unwanted pregnancy.

    If she relies only on science, she may decide that baby is a viable human or a blob of cells depending on which research she reads and believes.
    Is she relies only on testimony, she may listen to the advice of others who have had an abortion or she may rely on the scriptures which tells us that murder is wrong.

    However if she relies on the Holy Ghost, she will be able to discern which science and which testimony she should rely on. She then has more than one witness as to what is right.

    You seem to think the first two are more important and should over-ride the Holy Ghost because you seem to think we are too easily deceived. I on the other hand think that the Holy Ghost is the most reliable witness as God works with us to recognize the Holy Ghost through the outcomes we experience.

    Hence the scripture:

    Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    God knows that he wants us to turn to Him and experience Him with our eyes, our ears and our hearts.

    As you can see from your Post #12, you rely heavily on method 1 and 2 and less on the Holy Ghost, but the Bible teaches the exact opposite of that.
    Last edited by BigJulie; 08-04-2016 at 01:40 PM.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Truly just your point of view. But even Christ had his detractors and critics. Why should there be anything less for His gospel?

    Really sad you do not understand faith.
    Are you OK with a blind faith?

    You have to trust Joseph Smith for Nephites, Jaredites and Lamanites.
    You have to trust Smith with "Reformed Egyptian."
    You have to trust Smith first century Christians actually practiced Mormonism.
    You have to trust Smith could really translate Egyptian as claimed in the Pearl of Great Price.
    You have to trust Smith he was used to restore authority.
    You have to trust Smith when he said he had only one wife.
    You have to trust Smith when he saw an angel, no Jesus, no Jesus and the father in the first vision.
    You have to trust Smith that a feeling is a sign of truth.


    Jer 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post
    Are you OK with a blind faith?

    You have to trust Joseph Smith for Nephites, Jaredites and Lamanites.
    You have to trust Smith with "Reformed Egyptian."
    You have to trust Smith first century Christians actually practiced Mormonism.
    You have to trust Smith could really translate Egyptian as claimed in the Pearl of Great Price.
    You have to trust Smith he was used to restore authority.
    You have to trust Smith when he said he had only one wife.
    You have to trust Smith when he saw an angel, no Jesus, no Jesus and the father in the first vision.
    You have to trust Smith that a feeling is a sign of truth.


    Jer 17:10 "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."
    Don't mistake blind faith with faith with eyes wide open.

    The Holy Ghost bears witness and then I am able to observe the fruit of the spirit. While you are worried about Nephites and "feelings", what I see is pure and recognizable fruits.

    And talking about feelings---when do you ever not teach your children that part of spirituality is learning to discern the feeling of the spirit versus the feeling of flesh? I just can't even imagine living in which I have to trust everyone else because I cannot trust that God can and will answer my prayers. Once you learn to recognize the spirit, I can't imagine living any other way.

    It is because of the witness of the Holy Ghost that I had the strength to turn down sex, drugs, cheating and every other teenage type pressure. It is because of the Holy Ghost I know I know I can pray and ask to be forgiven, I have an ***urance that I am. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I am *****ed in the heart to help another, to give service, to sacrifice myself for others, to forgive. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I know Christ lives and loves me, that I am a child of God, that marriage has an eternal purpose, and my life has meaning. You worry about Nephi and whether there is "proof"--but I have all the proof I need.

    Btw, interesting that you should quote a scripture that speaks to God giving according to a person's deeds. I thought most Christians did not believe in that.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    By the outcome of my actions.
    what criteria do you use to determine if the outcome of your actions is correct? The mormons disallowed blacks for decades and they saw that outcome as good, then they suddenly changed so what criteria is being used to determine if an outcome is good or not? The Bibe never teaches racism or excluding lacks form anywhere so you cannot point to any verse in the Bible to support your point.

    It is also through the Holy Ghost we discern the meaning of scriptures so we are not mislead (such as the Pharisees were) in our readings.
    How do you know that you have the truth and are actually following the HS? What criteria do you use and the fruit of the spirit are not rules to determine if you have the truth or not. Jesus didn't teach that they were. What biblical basis do you have for using the fruit of the spirit and outcomes as your guide?

    Since Mormon initiation rights are not biblically taught nor part of the fruits of the spirit how do you justify in using them in your ceremonies to induct new members into the temple?

    It is not blind at all. I would hate to ever tell a person to ignore what they feel. Guilt is a feeling. Love is a feeling. Hate is a feeling. It is when we become past feelings and think that our brains should over-ride our spirits, we are in trouble.
    That means absolutely nothing. Emotions are subjective and cannot be trusted to guide us in anything.

    Let me give you an example. There are three possible sources of truth: 1) Science 2) Other people's testimonies and 3) the Holy Ghost. The Bible is a grouping of testimonies of God and of Jesus Christ. However, not all people read it the same and so there are disagreements.
    # 1 & 2 are completely wrong. The Holy Spirit is God so it knows the truth and how to guide us to it but as Jesus prayed to his father, lead them to your truth, so the the source of truth is God. No they are not groupings of testimonies, they are revelations, teachings, commands, historical information and so on. So you believe Christianity is existential where the Bible says one thing to one person and something else to another. That is not leading people to the truth but confusion which is not of God.

    So, let's say that there is a women who has an unwanted pregnancy.

    If she relies only on science, she may decide that baby is a viable human or a blob of cells depending on which research she reads and believes.
    Is she relies only on testimony, she may listen to the advice of others who have had an abortion or she may rely on the scriptures which tells us that murder is wrong.
    That doesn't provide an example of anything except to point out how misguided you are and that you do not know truth or where to find it.

    As you can see from your Post #12, you rely heavily on method 1 and 2 and less on the Holy Ghost, but the Bible teaches the exact opposite of that.
    Again you demonstrate that you do not know anything nor what i do or believe. You ***ume those things and place your own ideas upon my words but you are so far off that you prove you do not know what you are talking about.
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    It is because of the witness of the Holy Ghost that I had the strength to turn down sex, drugs, cheating and every other teenage type pressure. It is because of the Holy Ghost I know I know I can pray and ask to be forgiven, I have an ***urance that I am. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I am *****ed in the heart to help another, to give service, to sacrifice myself for others, to forgive. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I know Christ lives and loves me, that I am a child of God, that marriage has an eternal purpose, and my life has meaning. You worry about Nephi and whether there is "proof"--but I have all the proof I need.
    In other words you will ignore the checks and balances that God provides to help us make sure we are on the right path and you will continue to willfully be deceived.

    The Holy Ghost bears witness and then I am able to observe the fruit of the spirit. While you are worried about Nephites and "feelings", what I see is pure and recognizable fruits.
    You or the Mormon church refines the word 'fruits' in order to remain deceived and locked in sin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Don't mistake blind faith with faith with eyes wide open.

    The Holy Ghost bears witness and then I am able to observe the fruit of the spirit. While you are worried about Nephites and "feelings", what I see is pure and recognizable fruits.

    And talking about feelings---when do you ever not teach your children that part of spirituality is learning to discern the feeling of the spirit versus the feeling of flesh? I just can't even imagine living in which I have to trust everyone else because I cannot trust that God can and will answer my prayers. Once you learn to recognize the spirit, I can't imagine living any other way.

    It is because of the witness of the Holy Ghost that I had the strength to turn down sex, drugs, cheating and every other teenage type pressure. It is because of the Holy Ghost I know I know I can pray and ask to be forgiven, I have an ***urance that I am. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I am *****ed in the heart to help another, to give service, to sacrifice myself for others, to forgive. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I know Christ lives and loves me, that I am a child of God, that marriage has an eternal purpose, and my life has meaning. You worry about Nephi and whether there is "proof"--but I have all the proof I need.

    Btw, interesting that you should quote a scripture that speaks to God giving according to a person's deeds. I thought most Christians did not believe in that.
    I would have to ask, is it possible to be lead by another spirit, an inspiration that is not the Spirit of God?

    "For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." (2 Corinthians 11:4)

    There are many in other religions who claim it is the Spirt of God that has changed and now guides their lives. Even the 12 step rehabilitation programs encourage it's participants to appeal to a "higher power" in helping them get their lives under control. What makes you think that your experience is any different than theirs?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    Don't mistake blind faith with faith with eyes wide open.
    Really. Is that what you think of yourself when you see Smith's translation of the Egyptian in the Facsimiles? In reality, that is as tight shut as one can get their eyes.

    The Holy Ghost bears witness and then I am able to observe the fruit of the spirit. While you are worried about Nephites and "feelings", what I see is pure and recognizable fruits.
    Is it really "pure" when you just swallow such a bold face lie as Smth's false "translation."

    And talking about feelings---when do you ever not teach your children that part of spirituality is learning to discern the feeling of the spirit versus the feeling of flesh? I just can't even imagine living in which I have to trust everyone else because I cannot trust that God can and will answer my prayers. Once you learn to recognize the spirit, I can't imagine living any other way.
    I taught my kids to discern truth which in the end does not depend on feelings. Satan loves the realm of feelings and is he smarter than you or I. He understands manipulating with feelings more than we can.

    I
    t is because of the witness of the Holy Ghost that I had the strength to turn down sex, drugs, cheating and every other teenage type pressure. It is because of the Holy Ghost I know I know I can pray and ask to be forgiven, I have an ***urance that I am. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I am *****ed in the heart to help another, to give service, to sacrifice myself for others, to forgive. It is because of the Holy Ghost that I know Christ lives and loves me, that I am a child of God, that marriage has an eternal purpose, and my life has meaning. You worry about Nephi and whether there is "proof"--but I have all the proof I need.
    I did not become a Christian until well into college. Even as an agnostic I saw no reason to cave in to drugs, sex and cheating. Fortunately alcohol was never an issue for me. Was God watching over me during those times, certainly He was. but I saw no reason to acknowledge Him at that point. One does not need to "feel" the spirit in order to behave well.
    Being "good" in the sight of others is often something we lean on when we do not have ***urance of salvation. Somehow we like to think we have to add something to what Christ did on the cross. What He did justified me. I cannot be any more saved by anything that I do. Now I do enjoy serving and being with Him, but not because I expect some holy merit badge. Anything I earn gets laid back at His feet because it really came from Him to begin with.

    Now I did not say anything about Nephi. I did bring up the Nephites and several other topics which you find excuses to avoid dealing with. Does that really sound pure to turn your back and pretend there are not issues?

    Btw, interesting that you should quote a scripture that speaks to God giving according to a person's deeds. I thought most Christians did not believe in that.
    God expects you to use your mind. There are reasons He provided it. If one refuses to use their mind, then that person is never really honest with their self.

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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Radix View Post



    I did not become a Christian until well into college. Even as an agnostic I saw no reason to cave in to drugs, sex and cheating. Fortunately alcohol was never an issue for me. Was God watching over me during those times, certainly He was. but I saw no reason to acknowledge Him at that point. One does not need to "feel" the spirit in order to behave well.
    Being "good" in the sight of others is often something we lean on when we do not have ***urance of salvation. Somehow we like to think we have to add something to what Christ did on the cross. What He did justified me. I cannot be any more saved by anything that I do. Now I do enjoy serving and being with Him, but not because I expect some holy merit badge. Anything I earn gets laid back at His feet because it really came from Him to begin with.
    Did you belong to any religion at all in your youth? If so, which one?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  22. #22
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    Let's get back on topic: Where is the evidence?

    Recently the Mormon church released the stones or the photos of the stones supposedly used by Smith in his translation as if their existence were actual evidence for anything. The Mormon problem is, they were just stones, any stones, not one prophet or elder took them up and showed that they actually worked. All the release did was to undermine their claims because there was no way to verify those stones were actually used by Smith and that they could actually help translate anything.

    You need to be really brainwashed to accept those stones as valid and used by Smith.
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  23. #23
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    'big' posted:

    Originally Posted by DrDavidT
    I will list the topics that need evidence:

    the angel moroni

    the golden tablets

    the book of mormon

    any claim made by smith

    that the extra mormon scriptures are divine and true

    by evidence I mean real evidence not just what someone's heart tells them for hearts can be deceived

    I would say the Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit, but I know you don't believe in that type of witness, but prefer archaeological findings or other things that have little to do with faith.

    In other words, you HAVE NO EVIDENCE in reality. The Holy Ghost bore witness to ME that the bom was false, joe smith was fraud and conman, and his junk was anti-biblical, violating what GOD HAD ALREADY SAID.

    I have PLENTY OF FAITH in Jesus Christ. It is in the fraud joey smith that I have no faith.

    I KNOW GOD through His Word (the BIBLE) and by the testimony of the Holy Ghost in my own life, and by the FRUIT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT that has been predominent in my own life for over 40 years now.

    Joey smith and his made up gods and false religion have nothing to do with it. FAITH IN JESUS does.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    ?....Where is the evidence?

    Recently the Mormon church released the stones.....All the release did was to undermine their claims because there was no way to verify those stones were actually used by Smith and that they could actually help translate anything.
    you seem to have really strong feelings about evidence and stones.

    So apparently you feel that the stone tablets allegedly containing the 10 commandments, written by god's finger as mentioned in the bible, never actually existed. You seem to follow the atheist / humanist motto "Unless I actually see it, I should conclude that it never existed because nothing else is evidence."



    You need to be really brainwashed to accept those stones as valid and used by Smith.
    Do you also need to be really brainwashed to accept the claim that the stones with commandments written on them, that Moses was given, ever really existed?

    As you said, where is the evidence?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    you seem to have really strong feelings about evidence and stones.

    So apparently you feel that the stone tablets allegedly containing the 10 commandments, written by god's finger as mentioned in the bible, never actually existed. You seem to follow the atheist / humanist motto "Unless I actually see it, I should conclude that it never existed because nothing else is evidence."




    Do you also need to be really brainwashed to accept the claim that the stones with commandments written on them, that Moses was given, ever really existed?

    As you said, where is the evidence?
    Your argument fails on several accounts. First we have the ten commandments and we can read what they say. We do not have to have the stone tablets. Second, the Mormons claim to have the actual stones Smith used, yet they cannot demonstrate that they actually work like Smith claims. Third, if we had the actual stone tablets and produced them, the writings would have to match the words God gave Moses BUT we do not claim we have the tablets, we claim and produce the actual 10 commandments which are far more important than the actual stone tablets written on by God.

    Fourth, the Mormons do not have the golden tablets thus they cannot produce the source for the book of Mormon or any Mormon scripture nor show how the stones translated the p***ages Smith supposedly translated. In other words, the Mormons have nothing to hang their faith upon. Fifth, your accusation is misdirected and false and not worth re****ing as you use it to distract from the fact that you believe something without real evidence showing it is true. All you are doing is following Smith's 'take my word for it' mandate.
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