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Thread: Where is the evidence that mormonism is true?

  1. #226
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
    Only the Holy Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. All other books were written by men.
    Hi Hogan:

    All books were written by man--including the Bible.

  2. #227
    alanmolstad
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
    dberrie, The BoM, which Smith claimed to be the most correct book of any on earth, has undergone thousands of revisions. The BoM is a product of its time. Its a 19th century writing. Only the Holy Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit. All other books were written by men.

    You need to put your faith in Jesus Christ and not in a man.
    good point...

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Morning, Hogan:

    Mistakes crept in---http://www.nola.com/religion/index.ssf/2011/03/changes_to_the_bible_through_the_ages_are_being_st udied_by_new_orleans_scholars.html

    The earliest works — some of Paul’s Epistles — date to about the middle of the first century. Like the Gospels that followed, they were written by hand, and successors were copied by hand. Mistakes occasionally crept in.

    Moreover, with Christianity in its infancy and the earliest Christians still trying to clarify the full meaning of Jesus, his mission and his stories, the texts themselves sometimes changed from generation to generation, said Warren.

    As archeologists and historians in later years uncovered more early m****cripts, each one hand-copied from some predecessor, they could see occasional additions or subtractions from a phrase, a verse or a story.

    The changes are called “variants.”

    Most changes are inconsequential, the result of mere copying errors, or the replacement of a less common word for a more common word.

    But others are more important. They meant something.

    For example, the famous tale in John’s Gospel in which Jesus challenges a mob about to stone a woman accused of adultery — “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her” — is a variant that copyists began inserting into John at least 300 years after that Gospel first appeared.

    In the conclusion to Mark, the description of Jesus appearing to various disciples after his resurrection does not appear in the earliest m****cripts.

    And in Luke, the crucified Jesus’ plea that his executioners be forgiven “for they know not what they are doing” likewise does not appear in the earliest versions of his Gospel.

    What’s at work here, Warren said, is that even after the 4th century church definitively settled on the books it accepted as divinely inspired accounts of the Christian vision, some of the texts within those books were still subject to slight changes — and some had already seen changes since being first published.

    A true story

    Warren said the story of the adulterous woman in John’s Gospel, for example, seems to be an account of an actual event preserved and treasured by the Christian community.

    “People know it, and they like it,” he said. “It’s about a forgiveness that many times is needed in the church. Can you be forgiven on major sins?”

    John had not included it, but Christians wanted to shoehorn it in somewhere, Warren said.

    Warren said the story wanders across several early John m****cripts, appearing in a variety of places.

    It even shows up in two early copies of Luke.

    “But probably it was never part of John’s Gospel, in the original form,” he said.

    By the 7th century, it had found its current home. It appears today in John 7:53-8:11.

    Another change appears in Mark 9:29, when Jesus tells his disciples some demons can be driven out “only by prayer.”

    Warren said 3rd century m****cripts added “and fasting” — probably as Christians’ own commentary on the power of that spiritual discipline, which was then becoming standard Christian practice.

    In those and other cases, early Christian copiers are probably hoping to clarify a teaching or story for Christian audiences.

    In effect, early copiers were taking what modern readers would recognize as study notes and slipping them into the texts, a process that began to tail off around the 9th century, Warren said.
    What you cut and pasted is old news. For every link you give, there are hundreds of others which dispute it.

    Dberrie, where are those "Mistakes" you claim crept in the Bible? Can you give me specific p***ages?

  4. #229
    hogan60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hi Hogan:

    All books were written by man--including the Bible.
    Then I guess Peter lied when he said: "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2Peter 1:21) I guess Paul lied too when he told Timothy that “All Scripture is God-breathed.."

  5. #230
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
    What you cut and pasted is old news. For every link you give, there are hundreds of others which dispute it.

    Dberrie, where are those "Mistakes" you claim crept in the Bible? Can you give me specific p***ages?
    No--and neither would I--I don't make an issue out of any claim such as that. I believe it was you who brought up the issue, not me. You won't find that point being initiated by me. It's meaningless, IMO.

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    Default STILL not a SHRED of evidence

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post

    Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    NO witnesses to the TEXT (which had to be CORRECTED) of the bom.
    The Book of Mormon is full of witnesses to the things which were written in the text--just as the Bible is. All translations go through a "correction" process. Most translations are composed of varying texts from one another.

    But didn't joey smith CLAIM his bom to be the 'most correct' book on earth? DIDN'T joey smith CLAIM that GOD put the text on the stone and it didn't go away until it was written down CORRECTLY?

    Or did that mormon bishop friend of mine lie to me? I guess your bishops don't know your religion very well. . .


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    Default berry admits the bom is meaningless!

    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    No--and neither would I--I don't make an issue out of any claim such as that. I believe it was you who brought up the issue, not me. You won't find that point being initiated by me. It's meaningless, IMO.
    So you ADMIT that there are mistakes in the bom, but you don't care? After all, it is supposedly a 'most perfect book" your god could make, according to smith. . .So I guess it DOESN'T MATTER at all! After all, joey smith made it all up anyway. . .so IT IS meaningless!

  8. #233
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    So you ADMIT that there are mistakes in the bom, but you don't care?
    Hi Christian:

    Please go back and reread the posts. My reference--and Hogan's retort-- was to the "mistakes" in the Bible, not the Book of Mormon. And, IMO--as I have already stated--anything man lays his hand to--there will be mistakes found therein, including the Book of Mormon.

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    so sad that some people have to derail a thread for their own agenda and disrespect the person who started the thread in the first place. such selfish people have no place in public discussions. I will be leaving soon, maybe after a few more posts. I have better things to do than watch my threads be destroyed
    magazine is still running, location as changed. contact us for the internet address

  10. #235
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    so sad that some people have to derail a thread for their own agenda and disrespect the person who started the thread in the first place. such selfish people have no place in public discussions. I will be leaving soon, maybe after a few more posts. I have better things to do than watch my threads be destroyed
    Hi David:

    IMO--most people have better things to do than to read straw man retorts. I believe we deserve better, even--real, Biblical truths--and that takes the Biblical scriptures to demonstrate:

    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    One will find that doctrine in the testimony of Christ Himself--and in the LDS church.

    But absent in faith alone theology.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    Hi David:

    IMO--most people have better things to do than to read straw man retorts. I believe we deserve better, even--real, Biblical truths--and that takes the Biblical scriptures to demonstrate:

    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    One will find that doctrine in the testimony of Christ Himself--and in the LDS church.

    But absent in faith alone theology.
    I do not make strawman arguments. my comments are based upon what my old mormon acquaintances told me, my own research into mormonism and other fact filled investigations. all you have done is olympic style avoidance of everything presented because you are afraid to realize how bad your religious cult is.

    all the mormons on here have done the same thing. they have closed their minds to the truth about God, Jesus and their own religious cult. they also fail to discuss like adults as they try to convince everyone they believe the bible when in reality everyone knows you do not. the failure of the resident mormons to post what they actually believe and are taught (even in their temple experience) renders discussion useless because the mormons refuse to be honest and continue to use the bible when the bible is the lesser of all mormon religious works
    magazine is still running, location as changed. contact us for the internet address

  12. #237
    dberrie2000
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    Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post Hi David:

    IMO--most people have better things to do than to read straw man retorts. I believe we deserve better, even--real, Biblical truths--and that takes the Biblical scriptures to demonstrate:

    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    One will find that doctrine in the testimony of Christ Himself--and in the LDS church.

    But absent in faith alone theology.
    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    I do not make strawman arguments. my comments are based upon what my old mormon acquaintances told me, ....
    But mine are based on the Biblical scriptures.

    Care to engage the above scripture?

    all the mormons on here have done the same thing. they have closed their minds to the truth about God, Jesus and their own religious cult. they also fail to discuss like adults as they try to convince everyone they believe the bible when in reality everyone knows you do not. the failure of the resident mormons to post what they actually believe and are taught (even in their temple experience) renders discussion useless because the mormons refuse to be honest and continue to use the bible when the bible is the lesser of all mormon religious works
    That amounts to more straw man retorts. Do you use the Bible?

    1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
    17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

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    [QUOTE=dberrie2000;172027]


    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    But mine are based on the Biblical scriptures.
    Care to engage the above scripture?

    I've done it before, but you just IGNORED IT. The p***age was spoken BY a Jew, TO a Jew, and BOTH WERE UNDER THE OLD TESTAMENT LAW AT THE TIME.

    So you are trying to MISapply scripture, to PRETEND that Christians are still under the OT LAW.

    Do you use the Bible?

    1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
    17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    MORE ignorance by berry. WHAT IS the Gospel of God? Oh yes,
    ACCORDING TO GOD it is. . .

    1 Cor 15:1-8
    Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, 2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you — unless you believed in vain.
    3 For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 6 After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once, of whom the greater part remain to the present, but some have fallen asleep. 7 After that He was seen by James, then by all the apostles. 8 Then last of all He was seen by me also, as by one born out of due time.
    NKJV

    So the Gospel of God is:

    Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures
    that He was buried and
    that He rose on the third day
    and
    that He was SEEN ALIVE by MANY.

    NOT ONE WORD about 'additional junk' like 'ordinances' etc
    NOT ONE WORD about other junk

    NOT IN CHRIST's Gospel as reflected by the Apostle Paul.

    Your heathen cult has not taught you the truth. It constantly perverts the Bible to attempt to 'prove' its own agenda.

    That is why your cult PRETENDS that
    Your 'heavenly father' is one of many gods in many universes, and that your 'heavenly father was once a man, but never 'not god.'
    Your 'christ' is a spirit-brother to the demon satan.
    Your 'holy ghost' is another one of many gods

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJulie View Post
    The point is to show the hypocrisy of asking another to show proof of their faith through archaeological evidence when your own faith cannot.

    I CAN however, prove that most of the characters in the NT of the Bible existed in the real world
    YOU CANNOT prove ONE SINGLE EVENT, PERSON, or PLACE in your book of mormon ever existed IN THE REAL WORLD.

    SCRIPTURE SUPPORTS what I believe; that is WHY I believe it (BESIDES THE HOLY GHOST'S TESTIMONY).

    All YOU HAVE is joe smith's word, and an emotional tummy tug.

  15. #240
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian View Post
    I've done it before, but you just IGNORED IT. The p***age was spoken BY a Jew, TO a Jew, and BOTH WERE UNDER THE OLD TESTAMENT LAW AT THE TIME.
    Hi Christian:

    As Paul stated--if the OT covenant was capable of bringing eternal life--then there would have been no need for the New Testament.

    Jesus connected keeping the commandments with eternal life:

    Matthew 19:16-19---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    And so did the NT writers:

    1 John 2:3-4---King James Version (KJV)
    3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
    4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


    So you are trying to MISapply scripture, to PRETEND that Christians are still under the OT LAW. Do you use the Bible?
    I use it frequently--but that usually resorts in some kind of "out of context" retort:

    Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

    Jesus died for our sins according to the scriptures
    Jesus died for the sins of the whole world:

    1 John 2:2---King James Version (KJV)
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


    NOT ONE WORD about 'additional junk' like 'ordinances' etc
    So--you believe the command to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins--is "junk"?

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Acts 22:16---King James Version (KJV)
    16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
    Last edited by dberrie2000; 03-31-2017 at 04:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
    Because Mormonism claims they have restored the gospel which somehow got lost despite the work of Jesus and the apostles and their followers, the burden of proof does lie with the Mormon church.
    Actually, it the "proof" lies with God. He asks that we ask him in faith.

    Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

    Its not lack of faith on the part of Christians, because we do have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Its we do not have any faith in another gospel. Mormons are asking us to believe in something totally different and yet present no concrete evidence. That's where archaeology comes in.Yet, you don't even have that and the Bible has a ton of archaeological support.
    Do you see your own contradiction here? On one hand you express faith in your own beliefs, but when presented with something unfamiliar, you want proof.

    Christ promised to preserve His church and He does not lie.

    Mtt. 16:18 "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

    That's plain english. Nothing, not even hell can destroy His church.
    That is true, his church cannot be destroyed. But which church is that to you? Catholic? Orthodox Greek? Or are you speaking in broader terms meaning those who follow God?
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

  17. #242
    alanmolstad
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    all claims that a person makes about what the Bible teaches have to be researched...

    We are to never just take someone's word...

    Rather we are to put teachings and ideas to the test...

    This is the example that Paul give us, for when he came to a city with a new teaching the people there would listen, then open their bibles and check to make sure what Paul was saying was actually found in the text?

  18. #243
    dberrie2000
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    all claims that a person makes about what the Bible teaches have to be researched...

    We are to never just take someone's word...

    Rather we are to put teachings and ideas to the test...

    This is the example that Paul give us, for when he came to a city with a new teaching the people there would listen, then open their bibles and check to make sure what Paul was saying was actually found in the text?
    There were a lot of "new teachings" found in the Biblical NT text which was not found in the scriptures which was had during Paul's day.

    If they were "new"--then how could they look for it in what they had? IOW--if they already had that teaching--then it would not be "new".

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    The fact is--most people just deny what the scriptures teach, when they defy their personal theologies.

  19. #244
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    Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.




    all things in the church are put to the test of scripture.
    Every teaching must be tested,,,,



    Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

  20. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
    I don't doubt that--only, if it were a "new teaching"--then they would not be able to reference it through the text that is described as the Biblical "Old Testament".

    For example--where do we find this teaching in the OT?

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    Again--if we search the scriptures to confirm what is Biblical truth--then why do the faith alone deny all scriptures which testify against them?

    Revelation 22:14---King James Version (KJV)
    14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alanmolstad View Post
    all claims that a person makes about what the Bible teaches have to be researched...

    We are to never just take someone's word...

    Rather we are to put teachings and ideas to the test...

    This is the example that Paul give us, for when he came to a city with a new teaching the people there would listen, then open their bibles and check to make sure what Paul was saying was actually found in the text?
    I completely agree, but the argument you are making with Dberrie is not about what is in the text, but if others outside the text agree with him based on their ownr understanding of the text. The Pharisees knew the text well and had many discussions and ideas about it. Unfortunately, they didn't bother to ask the only One who matters.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    BJ, do you believe Satan is a REAL AND POWERFUL "GOD" as dberrie claims? FAIR has repudiated that belief to me personally.
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post
    There were a lot of "new teachings" found in the Biblical NT text which was not found in the scriptures which was had during Paul's day.

    If they were "new"--then how could they look for it in what they had? IOW--if they already had that teaching--then it would not be "new".

    Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
    38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

    The fact is--most people just deny what the scriptures teach, when they defy their personal theologies.
    "New teachings?" Like how Joe Smith, that perverted pedophile, changed the first chapter of the Gospel of John to teach Arianism?
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Apologette View Post
    "New teachings?" Like how Joe Smith, that perverted pedophile, changed the first chapter of the Gospel of John to teach Arianism?
    I think the new teachings he was referring to were things such as the Sacrament, teaching to the Gentiles, etc.
    I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormon)--Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post
    I will list the topics that need evidence:

    the angel moroni

    the golden tablets

    the book of mormon

    any claim made by smith

    that the extra mormon scriptures are divine and true

    by evidence I mean real evidence not just what someone's heart tells them for hearts can be deceived

    And where is the evidence that God uses an occultist, a witch like Joseph Smith was, who even sacrificed animals to appease spirits in his treasure hunting days, to restore anything. Smith restored something, alright, but it sure wasn't Christianity. He restored paganism, and Mormonism is a monument to it.
    Oath formerly taken by Mormons promising not to reveal secret Mormon temple rituals: "Should we do so, we agree to have our breasts cut open and our hearts and vitals torn from our bodies and given to the birds of the air and the beasts of the field."

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