Quote Originally Posted by hogan60 View Post
dberrie, are you saying that Paul contradicted himself when he said in Eph. 2:8,9 it is by grace we are saved and not of works? Do you really believe Paul turned around and taught something completely different?
Hi Hogan:

Two points here:

1) How does being saved by grace somehow negate the fact the scriptures testify God gives this grace(that which does save)--to them which obey Him?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

2) When Paul used the terms "works", "works of the Law", "the law", etc--those were references to rituals under the Mosaic Law--such as circumcision--not obedience to the Gospel.

Again--how do you collate your theology to the above scriptures?

As for 2Thess.1:7-9, Paul is talking about unbelievers in the Day of the Lord. They don't believe in Jesus, therefore, they don't believe in His Gospel. Obeying the Gospel is believing (having faith) in it. When we speak about obeying the Gospel we are referring to what one must do in order to be justified.
Can one be saved without being justified?

Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Acts 16:31-34--King James Version (KJV)
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

The way I read that--it was not until they were baptized those of the house were pronounced as "believing in God". Is water baptism connected to belief--as an integral component?

Hogan--terms always include all the components that make them up. Faith without works is dead, being alone.