Where is the evidence that mormonism is true?

[BigJulie]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

uhm,,, that is a poor argument for you have no evidence that the Spaniards or even the ancient people of South and Central America destroyed or had records supporting Smith.

We have historical knowledge that the Spaniards destroyed many records as they brought in Catholicism. It is interesting that you believe that one should be able to show proof that records (that are destroyed mind you) should be able to indicate what those records are.

You are using this as an argument because it is convenient not factual.

That Spaniards destroyed records and ***imilated civilizations? You can just do an Internet search for this.

Evidence is not limited to geology. Then, there has only been one global flood, the geologists would have no idea what to look for.

Umm, what? That is what geologists do--look for what happened in different areas based on the rock formations or layers. As geologists do not support this, I rely on faith about this. I ***ume you do to.

that means absolutely nothing. and how do you know it wasn't known at Smith's time? People wrote on metal all the time. He could have gotten the idea from contemporary work

Based on when the metal plates were discovered. So, what evidence do you have the people in Joseph Smith's area were writing on metal? You can look this up when it was discovered that ancient records were found on metal plates as well.

Or are you admitting that there may be evidence about something that happened during a time period that has been since lost?

We have proven enough evidence that verifies the veracity of the Bible and they are not circumstantial.

What evidence? You have yet to show any. To say a city existed or a place existed or other written records exist of the same books does not show proof. There are millions of copies of the Book of Mormon--to you this would count as evidence.

That is not evidence for the BOM or Smith's claims

It is proof that God said that Abraham's seed should bless the world---and the Book of Mormon is the only record that I am aware of that God has kept this promise in ancient days.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT View PostYou do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you?

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostSeeing the Biblical text is canonized scripture in the LDS church--are you claiming there are no Biblical m****cripts?

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

The Bible is there in name only.

Whatever you might believe about the Bible--it is canonized scripture in the LDS church.

Therefore--how do you support your postulation?

Originally Posted by DrDavidT View PostYou do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

People wrote on metal all the time. He could have gotten the idea from contemporary work

One of the previous arguments against the golden plates is there was no evidence which supported ancient people writing on metal plates--and burying them.

"No such records were ever engraved upon golden plates, or any other plates, in the early ages" [M.T. Lamb, The Golden Bible, or, the Book of Mormon: Is It from God? (New York: Ward & Drummond, 1887), p. 11].

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

I will list the topics that need evidence:

the golden tablets

the book of mormon

any claim made by smith

that the extra mormon scriptures are divine and true

by evidence I mean real evidence not just what someone's heart tells them for hearts can be deceived

Testimony of Eight Witnesses


Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith


Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

[Christian]

I <snipped> the junk of your 'witnesses,' some of whom later called joe smith a liar and worse, and others who left mormonism completely.

NOT ONE of your 'witnesses ever translated one word of text, never READ even one word of the text themselves. SOME said they only 'saw' the plates through 'spiritual eyes' but not physically.

Just another conman, his conmen buddies, his own conman family, and one loner (Hyram Page)?

I don't see any reason to believe in joe's magical plates yet. Got any REAL evidence?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

I <snipped> the junk of your 'witnesses,' some of whom later called joe smith a liar and worse, and others who left mormonism completely.

NOT ONE of your 'witnesses ever translated one word of text, never READ even one word of the text themselves. SOME said they only 'saw' the plates through 'spiritual eyes' but not physically.

Just another conman, his conmen buddies, his own conman family, and one loner (Hyram Page)?

I don't see any reason to believe in joe's magical plates yet. Got any REAL evidence?

Hi Christian:

Could you show us where any witness ever denied his testimony recorded here?

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith


Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

Witnesses are always a valid presentation in any court. Unless you can show where they denied their witness--then it stands.

[Christian]

I'm recovering from a wreck (someone rear-ended me at 45mph when I was stopped in a line for a light. I was hospitalized as was the p***enger in the car ahead of me. My own car was destroyed. I was the 'filling in the oreo' somebody said.
I am tired, so I won't take the time or make the effort to do the research. I have seen with my own physical eyes of documents that cowdery, whitmer, and harris wrote. My position stands solidly if YOU bother to do simple research.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

I'm recovering from a wreck (someone rear-ended me at 45mph when I was stopped in a line for a light. I was hospitalized as was the p***enger in the car ahead of me. My own car was destroyed. I was the 'filling in the oreo' somebody said.
I am tired, so I won't take the time or make the effort to do the research. I have seen with my own physical eyes of documents that cowdery, whitmer, and harris wrote. My position stands solidly if YOU bother to do simple research.

I'm wishing you a speedy recovery. My son was hit by a drunk driver while at a red light--at 50 MPH--with a Cadillac Escalade. The thing is--he had just borrowed my new car. I believe that saved him.

Don't worry about this right now, it's not that important anyway--just rest and get well. We will have some fun with it later.

[MichaellS]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

I'm wishing you a speedy recovery. My son was hit by a drunk driver while at a red light--at 50 MPH--with a Cadillac Escalade. The thing is--he had just borrowed my new car. I believe that saved him.

Don't worry about this right now, it's not that important anyway--just rest and get well. We will have some fun with it later.

Wishing the same!

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

You are confused, this thread is about Mormons producing their evidence, not the believer.

The believer of what? In a theology that preaches one inherits eternal life without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Christian]

​

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The believer of what? In a theology that preaches one inherits eternal life without any acts of obedience to Jesus Christ?

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Yes, the BIBLICAL THEOLOGY. According to YOUR THEORY, a quadraplegic blind mute would go to hell.

According to the BIBLICAL THEOLOGY, a thief who was fastened to a cross would go to heaven because of his FAITH, NOT because of his works.

As I have SHOWN YOU, the p***age is from a man TO A MAN, and is NOT from God's Viewpoint. GOD'S VIEWPOINT IS:


Rom 4:5-85 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

You KNOW I have shown this to you before and you have NOT SHOWN that God does NOT justify the ungodly because his faith was not enough works.

EXACTLY WHAT 'works' do YOU deem REQUIRED for man to be forgiven by God? PLEASE BE SPECIFIC. . .if you are up to it.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

EXACTLY WHAT 'works' do YOU deem REQUIRED for man to be forgiven by God? PLEASE BE SPECIFIC. . .if you are up to it.

Let's start here:

Acts 2:38---King James Version (KJV)
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Phoenix

The Book of Mormon had been claiming, all alone, that some ancient civilizations wrote important things on metal. People laughed at the claim and said "If that is true, then where is the evidence? How come no metal engravings have ever been discovered?"

Then, over 100 years later, the silver scrolls were discovered.

As I pointed out, the silver scrolls are evidence for the Bible NOT the BOM or Mormon golden plates.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

One of the previous arguments against the golden plates is there was no evidence which supported ancient people writing on metal plates--and burying them.

"No such records were ever engraved upon golden plates, or any other plates, in the early ages" [M.T. Lamb, The Golden Bible, or, the Book of Mormon: Is It from God? (New York: Ward & Drummond, 1887), p. 11].

you people do not seem to be reading what has been written in this thread. Metal inscriptions are NOT evidence for the Mormon golden plates. All they do is show that it was a possibility that an inscription was placed on golden plates. Nothing ties those discoveries to the Mormon and Smith's claims and cannot be used as evidence to support those claims.

You still have to produce the golden plates.

[DrDavidT]

We have historical knowledge that the Spaniards destroyed many records as they brought in Catholicism. It is interesting that you believe that one should be able to show proof that records (that are destroyed mind you) should be able to indicate what those records are.

You missed the key words of my post-- records supporting Smith's claims--- all I have seen you Mormons do is steal evidence from other works and claim it supports Smith and his claims. The Spaniards destroying Mayan records is not proof that they destroyed BOM evidence.

That Spaniards destroyed records and ***imilated civilizations? You can just do an Internet search for this.

it is a giant leap to say that the records destroyed by the Spaniards were those that supported Smith's claims. You haven't proved that such records even existed yet so you are not providing evidence for anything here.

That is what geologists do--look for what happened in different areas based on the rock formations or layers. As geologists do not support this, I rely on faith about this. I ***ume you do to.

You do not know what you are talking about. As I said, flood evidence is not limited to geology.

Based on when the metal plates were discovered. So, what evidence do you have the people in Joseph Smith's area were writing on metal? You can look this up when it was discovered that ancient records were found on metal plates as well.

Or are you admitting that there may be evidence about something that happened during a time period that has been since lost?

Again, you do not know what you are talking about. You cannot steal evidence for other works and then claim you have evidence for your golden plates. As I said, you only have a possibility but since no Mormon can produce the golden plates nor make those translation stones work, you got nothing.

What evidence? You have yet to show any. To say a city existed or a place existed or other written records exist of the same books does not show proof. There are millions of copies of the Book of Mormon--to you this would count as evidence.

Siiiiggghhhhhhhh..... This is a thread for Mormons to produce evidence not for Christians to provide evidence for the Bible. Agai, you do not know what you are talking about and do not know what evidence is.

It is proof that God said that Abraham's seed should bless the world---and the Book of Mormon is the only record that I am aware of that God has kept this promise in ancient days.

Then you do not believe the Bible but take the BOM over its words.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Whatever you might believe about the Bible--it is canonized scripture in the LDS church.

Therefore--how do you support your postulation?

Being canonized scripture does not mean you or other Mormons understand what it is saying, have the truth, follow the Bible or do not have other scriptures which contradict the Bible.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Being canonized scripture does not mean you or other Mormons understand what it is saying, have the truth, follow the Bible ......

That could be applied equally to anyone.

Again--how do you support your postulation, seeing the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church?

Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post--You do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

you people do not seem to be reading what has been written in this thread. Metal inscriptions are NOT evidence for the Mormon golden plates.

I did not post any inscriptions. I posted the testimony of witnesses--which is considered evidence in any court of law:

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.

Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith


Testimony of Three Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken. And we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for his voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true. And it is marvelous in our eyes. Nevertheless, the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.

Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That could be applied equally to anyone.

Again--how do you support your postulation, seeing the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church?

Let me remind you that this thread is for Mormons to post their evidence, stop derailing the thread.

Your superficial argument tries to hide the real story behind the presence of the Bible in Mormon theology. Now if you do not have evidence stop ruining the thread.

[DrDavidT]

I did not post any inscriptions. I posted the testimony of witnesses--which is considered evidence in any court of law:

uhm...not necessarily. Given that 3 of the names are Smith, the credibility of their testimony is lacking.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Let me remind you that this thread is for Mormons to post their evidence, stop derailing the thread.

I posted my evidence.

Maybe you could answer to your post:

Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post--You do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you?

Seeing the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--what is the evidence of your postulation?

Your superficial argument tries to hide the real story behind the presence of the Bible in Mormon theology.

The real story is the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and it testifies against faith alone theology:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

uhm...not necessarily. Given that 3 of the names are Smith, the credibility of their testimony is lacking.

What is your evidence of that? Are you claiming anyone with the name of Smith is not credible?

[DrDavidT]

I posted my evidence.

testimony from 8 people of dubious nature...not conclusive.

Seeing the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--what is the evidence of your postulation?

The Bible does not attest to Smith's supposed ancient religion nor speaks of another prophet coming after Jesus to restore that religion.

The real story is the Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and it testifies against faith alone theology:.

just because you have the Bible as part of Mormon religious writings does not mean you have it right or understand what the Bible is talking about. You seem to cherry pick the scriptures you will believe as the Bible does not represent Satan as the Mormon church does.

[DrDavidT]

What is your evidence of that? Are you claiming anyone with the name of Smith is not credible?

Yes. Since you take a very long range and superficial view of the name Smith. YOU would have to prove that they are NOT relatives of Smith. Then you would have to prove that they are actually independent witnesses, not part of a conspiracy, telling the truth. How do you know they didn't lie? Then how do you know that Smith actually showed them the true plates?

Produce the actual plates and prove they are the actual plates Smith translated form. Showing any old stone and not making them work is not showing the stones Smith actually used.

[Christian]

My thanks to you guys who wished me well. I am now pretty much fully recovered (the car was destroyed; has been replaced) God has been VERY kind to my wife and myself. No, she was not in the car, but she had to deal with my problems.

All is well now. Give ALL the Glory to GOD! HE kept me safe and let me off with just bad sprains and nothing broken or torn apart. No face-plants into the steering wheel (seat belt was secure, no airbag) No being shot out the windshield. (Seatbelt), and no broken neck (headrest padded and at the correct height) IT WAS ALL GOD TAKING CARE OF ME!