Where is the evidence that mormonism is true?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Seeing the Biblical text is canonized scripture in the LDS church--are you claiming there are no Biblical m****cripts?

Berry posted:

Originally Posted by DrDavidT [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
You do realize that there are no extant ancient m****cripts which quote, allude, refer to any mormon scripture don't you?

The mormon religion may CLAIM to use the Bible, but the Bible is FAR FROM being 'mormon text.' The Bible existed LONG BEFORE joe smith invented his religious cult.

Your 'response' is childish and beyond ignorant (and YOU KNOW IT!) If you had an HONEST answer to give to Dr DavidT's claim, you would certainly offer it; but of course you cannot so you resort to this kind of 'baby response' instead.

It figures. It demonstrates the lack of spiritual and mental maturity mormons have.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

Berry posted:

[COLOR=#0000ff]
The mormon religion may CLAIM to use the Bible, but the Bible is FAR FROM being 'mormon text.'

The Biblical text is canonized scripture in the LDS church. It's official translation is the KJV.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Biblical text is canonized scripture in the LDS church. It's official translation is the KJV.

The catholics, branch davidians, jw's, and the white supremecists also CLAIM to use the Bible, but it is NOT THEIR TEXT EITHER. In their cases, as in the mormon case, it is just something they give 'lip-service' to.

So WHERE IS YOUR SUPPOSED EVIDENCE that mormon, nephites or ANY EVENT, PERSONS, or CIVILIZATIONS that are 'mormon specific' ever existed at all?

Of course THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT SMITH'S FANTASIES. Just your 'blind faith' in smith and his fantasies.

[Christian]

Big posted:

Don't mistake blind faith with faith with eyes wide open.

The Holy Ghost bears witness and then I am able to observe the fruit of the spirit. While you are worried about Nephites and "feelings", what I see is pure and recognizable fruits.

How do you 'explain' the fact that the HOLY GHOST BEARS WITNESS to me that the bom is a lie, joe smith is a liar, fraud, and false prophet, AND THE FACT that I am see the fruit of the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD in my life daily and have for over 43 years now?

HOW CAN YOUR SPIRIT LIE TO YOU and contradict itself by telling you that smith is true, but at the same time tell others that smith is a liar?

Doesn't that BOTHER you?

[Christian]

Originally Posted by Saint Grogan

I would have to ask, is it possible to be lead by another spirit, an inspiration that is not the Spirit of God?

"For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully." (2 Corinthians 11:4)

There are many in other religions who claim it is the Spirt of God that has changed and now guides their lives. Even the 12 step rehabilitation programs encourage it's participants to appeal to a "higher power" in helping them get their lives under control. What makes you think that your experience is any different than theirs?

Let's see now. . the REAL Jesus preached that there is ONE real God; smith claimed there are many.
The REAL Jesus taught salvation by FAITH IN HIM, not by 'earning it' by 'doing stuff;' smith required other things.

We CHRISTIANS have been CHANGED BY GOD, and now have the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT dominant in our lives; Mormons I know have NOT been changed, and their fruits are generally BAD.

You may think you hae a 'higher power,' but your 'power' comes from below. Your so-called '12-step rehabilitation programs' don't even CLAIM to be CHRISTIAN at all, but you are confused and try to lump all non-mormon-cultist groups together, just as other cultic groups do. You even CLAIM to be a 'christian' group, but in the 1970's would NEVER HAVE DONE SO. So much for the EVOLUTION of YOUR CULTIC RELIGION.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff]....it is just something they give 'lip-service' to.

The LDS seem to believe it somewhat more than most:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The Biblical text is canonized scripture in the LDS church. It's official translation is the KJV.

Repeating this does not remove the 3-4 other canonized Mormon scriptures from existence. Now I only use Wiki here to present the list not as anything else

The Book of Mormon, sub***led since 1981 "Another Testament of Jesus Christ"
The Doctrine and Covenants of the LDS Church
The Pearl of Great Price (containing the Book of Moses, the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith—Matthew, Joseph Smith—History, and the Articles of Faith)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_works

Divine revelation for the direction of the entire church comes from God to the President of the Church

The RCC makes this claim about the pope, so are you saying that God gives 2 different sets of revelations? How do you know your guy is telling the truth? What evidence do you have that shows the RCC to be in error?

These 3 books contradict the Bible in far too many places and we know that the BOM is NOT another testament of Jesus

then

Year One : Old Testament (also includes some coverage of related topics in the Book of Moses and Book of Abraham from the Pearl of Great Price)
Year Two : New Testament

What evidence do you have that demonstrates that you are not getting false teaching?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

[COLOR=#0000ff]The catholics, branch davidians, jw's, and the white supremecists also CLAIM to use the Bible, but it is NOT THEIR TEXT EITHER.

But it is the text of the LDS. The Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and they believe it's message:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

[Christian]

dberry posted:

But it is the text of the LDS. The Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and they believe it's message:

It is sometimes USED by the mormon religious cult, but it doe NOT IN ANY WAY "BELONG" to them. Your cult lies to you and gives lip service to the Bible.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

ANY idiot can RIP part of a sentence out of the Bible and pretend it means something it does not. You have been shown to be horribly wrong in your personal understanding of this p***age, yet you keep 'schlocking it in' to all of your posts as if it has meaning to you.

Judas went and hanged himself (BIBLE)
Go thou and do likewise (BIBLE)

See? I can do it too! Should I schlock that into all of my posts to you?

You have been corrected and discredited for your misunderstanding of the James partial sentence several times. Your choice to remain ignorant is noted.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

But it is the text of the LDS. The Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and they believe it's message:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

AGAIN MORMONS this is a thread for evidence to support yours and Smith's claims. Pony up, so far you have stolen other people's evidence only and only presented possibilities. Releasing photos of stones is not evidence.

[DrDavidT]

Well since the Mormons cannot produce real evidence to support their claims I guess we will consider this discussion closed.. Mormons cannot support their beliefs so it begs the question why do they hang onto something that is not real?

It also raises another question--why hasn't the angel moroni returned to verify any of Smith's claims?

I think I will start another thread using this question an dif it is a duplicate I apologize in advance

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View PostBut it is the text of the LDS. The Bible is canonized scripture in the LDS church--and they believe it's message:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

AGAIN MORMONS this is a thread for evidence to support yours and Smith's claims.

His claims were faith alone theology is false--which is the claim of the Bible:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Joseph Smith believed in faith alone--as it differentiates from the Mosaic Law--but not faith alone theology--and neither does the Biblical text:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

[Apologette]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

I will list the topics that need evidence:

the angel moroni

the golden tablets

the book of mormon

any claim made by smith

that the extra mormon scriptures are divine and true

by evidence I mean real evidence not just what someone's heart tells them for hearts can be deceived

All you'll get from a Mormon is this: "I prayed about it, and the Holy Ghost gave me a witness that all those things are true." No evidence at all will be provided, for example, proving the BoM to be genuine history. Joseph Smith is sacrosanct for all Mormons, and some will even tell you that they would have handed over their own wife to Joseph Smith had he asked (he married the wives of other Mormon males). Mormons try to justify the 37 year old Joseph Smith's marriages to little girls, age 14 - and some even say they would have given him their own teenage daughters.

Mormons are so conditioned, so brainwashed, that when we deal with the TBMs (true believing Mormons), we have to realize that their personalities and reasoning abilities are compromised by being is a destructive cult.

[Berean]

Originally Posted by Apologette

Mormons are so conditioned, so brainwashed, that when we deal with the TBMs (true believing Mormons), we have to realize that their personalities and reasoning abilities are compromised by being is a destructive cult.

Absolutely. And since they lack the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, LDS/Mormons are incapable of understanding and accepting the Gospel message of salvation by grace, through faith alone.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Berean

Absolutely. And since they lack the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, LDS/Mormons are incapable of understanding and accepting the Gospel message of salvation by grace, through faith alone.

The LDS believe one is saved by God's grace. That begs but one question, for me.

Who does God give this grace unto life to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by Apologette

All you'll get from a Mormon is this: "I prayed about it, and the Holy Ghost gave me a witness that all those things are true." No evidence at all will be provided, for example, proving the BoM to be genuine history. Joseph Smith is sacrosanct for all Mormons, and some will even tell you that they would have handed over their own wife to Joseph Smith had he asked (he married the wives of other Mormon males). Mormons try to justify the 37 year old Joseph Smith's marriages to little girls, age 14 - and some even say they would have given him their own teenage daughters.

Mormons are so conditioned, so brainwashed, that when we deal with the TBMs (true believing Mormons), we have to realize that their personalities and reasoning abilities are compromised by being is a destructive cult.

Yes that is true as I have been gone from this thread for awhile and they still cannot produce any evidence to support their claims. they also do not read works which attack their faith so how can they prepare any real answers if they do not know what they other person is talking about nor research history to see if their faith is true. Just so everyone knows, there has not been a religious faith like the mormon one in ancient history, there was nothing for smith to restore.

[DrDavidT]

duplicate post

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

Yes that is true as I have been gone from this thread for awhile and they still cannot produce any evidence to support their claims. they also do not read works which attack their faith so how can they prepare any real answers if they do not know what they other person is talking about nor research history to see if their faith is true. Just so everyone knows, there has not been a religious faith like the mormon one in ancient history, there was nothing for smith to restore.

David--just a note here. There was a restoration prophesied of in the Biblical NT:

Acts 3:21:King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Could you explain for us--if there was nothing lost--then why the need for the Reformation? And--why does the gospel--which is perfect--need to be "reformed"? If it is lost--it can only be restored--not reformed.

So--could you relate to us what there is in the Biblical NT--which you don't find in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

David--just a note here. There was a restoration prophesied of in the Biblical NT:

Acts 3:21:King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Could you explain for us--if there was nothing lost--then why the need for the Reformation? And--why does the gospel--which is perfect--need to be "reformed"? If it is lost--it can only be restored--not reformed.

So--could you relate to us what there is in the Biblical NT--which you don't find in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

res***ution does not equal restoration

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post David--just a note here. There was a restoration prophesied of in the Biblical NT:

Acts 3:21:King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Could you explain for us--if there was nothing lost--then why the need for the Reformation? And--why does the gospel--which is perfect--need to be "reformed"? If it is lost--it can only be restored--not reformed.

So--could you relate to us what there is in the Biblical NT--which you don't find in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

res***ution does not equal restoration

You might want to relate that to Mr Webster:

Definition of res***ution--Merriam Webster

1: an act of restoring or a condition of being restored: such as
a : a restoration of something to its rightful owner
b : a making good of or giving an equivalent for some injury
2: a legal action serving to cause restoration of a previous state

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You might want to relate that to Mr Webster:

Definition of res***ution--Merriam Webster

1: an act of restoring or a condition of being restored: such as
a : a restoration of something to its rightful owner
b : a making good of or giving an equivalent for some injury
2: a legal action serving to cause restoration of a previous state

i do not see res***ution there

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000 View Post David--just a note here. There was a restoration prophesied of in the Biblical NT:

Acts 3:21:King James Version (KJV)
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of res***ution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Quote Originally Posted by DrDavidT View Post res***ution does not equal restoration

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

You might want to relate that to Mr Webster:

Definition of res***ution--Merriam Webster

1: an act of restoring or a condition of being restored: such as
a : a restoration of something to its rightful owner
b : a making good of or giving an equivalent for some injury
2: a legal action serving to cause restoration of a previous state

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

i do not see res***ution there

I see both res***ution and restoration--and they are integral to one another--if Mr Webster is correct.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

The LDS believe one is saved by God's grace. That begs but one question, for me.

Who does God give this grace unto life to?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version (KJV)
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

The book of Hebrews was not written to Christians or even Gentiles. It was written to Jewish people. Some of them were believers, but a lot of them were still on the fence; they couldn’t turn their back on Judaism and the Law. They were having problems understanding that Jesus was God the Son, the Creator of everything. So Hebrews was written to lift who the Son really was. The obedience in Heb.5:9 concerning those who obey Him is not that regarding commandments, rules, and regulations. It is not obedience to the law. It is "the obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5). God wants us to obey Him by believing in Christ.

We need to understand the purpose for the letter and to whom the letter was written. There's nothing in Hebrews about the cross. About the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Nothing about the church or the body of Christ because it wasn't written to Christians.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

His claims were faith alone theology is false--which is the claim of the Bible:

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible (NASB)
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Joseph Smith believed in faith alone--as it differentiates from the Mosaic Law--but not faith alone theology--and neither does the Biblical text:

Matthew 16:27---King James Version (KJV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

What exactly will God reward Christians for? Works that they did as born again believers in His Son. The works of the unsaved mean nothing. They have have no reward and will be judged by Christ at the Great White Throne Judgment.

As for James 2:24, we cannot pull out one verse and try to make a doctrine out of it. James wrote to Jews, the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad. Jews under the kingdom economy. These Jewish believers had not yet heard or understood Paul’s Gospel of Grace.

You are making the error of using those verses that are not written to grace age Christian believers.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

The book of Hebrews was not written to Christians or even Gentiles. It was written to Jewish people. Some of them were believers, but a lot of them were still on the fence; they couldn’t turn their back on Judaism and the Law. They were having problems understanding that Jesus was God the Son, the Creator of everything. So Hebrews was written to lift who the Son really was. The obedience in Heb.5:9 concerning those who obey Him is not that regarding commandments, rules, and regulations. It is not obedience to the law. It is "the obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5). God wants us to obey Him by believing in Christ.

We need to understand the purpose for the letter and to whom the letter was written. There's nothing in Hebrews about the cross. About the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Nothing about the church or the body of Christ because it wasn't written to Christians.

Hi Hogan:

I wasn't aware Christians divided up the Biblical NT into books that are Christian--and books that are......?

I always considered the Biblical NT to be the Word of God--all of it. Why would Paul preach something that was not the gospel?

Hebrews 3:1---King James Version (KJV)
3 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Hogan--this seems to be one of the typical responses of those whose theology is violated by the scriptures--they seem to embark on a cover and cancel attempt.

Hebrews 10:36---King James Version (KJV)
36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.