Where is the evidence that mormonism is true?

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Ok that's cool.

one has to be carefull not to invest themselves too much in thinking that their on-line time is actually a ministry.
I mean that its fine to understand that every place you go is a reflection on your life and your religion, but it does get a bit much when you think that everything you currently think should be just as important to everyone else as it is to you.

Your life and your personal ministry mean a lot to you personally,,,but little to anyone else on the internet.

But we do tend to see some people that think every word they post should be seen as being equal to scripture.
We get people here like that many times over the years.

What happens is that they come barging into this forum and are here to set the world right.

They got a few bible verses to share, and a few books on how to present their religion to others, and they start attacking others...sometimes/many times in very personal offensive ways.

But what happens next is that the other guests simply dont react the way they were shown they should in their outreach books.
People simply never stop bickering right back at them.

In the outreach books and websites that people use all the time, it must be written from the stand point of showing a person, step by step how to go from one view of God and salvation to a different better view of God and salvation.

The whole book is written in an "order"...step1...step 2....step3...step 4, etc.

Well, thats not how things go on-line at all !

In real life, you never actually get to step 2.

In real life, you try to go to step 2 all the time...but suddenly you have to go back to step 1 again.....only to later think you can go to step 2, but you cant, for the other person is still stuck at step 1 and that's it...end of story.

and thus...we arrive at what actually is the downfall to many here that come thinking they are here to do outreach and missions...."FRUSTRATION"

For it is the amount of frustration that get people in trouble,
Frustration at not being able to get to step 2.
Frustration at not getting any help from someone else when they keep running into people that will refuse to follow the "plan".

I have always approached on-line forums as just being a place where I get to flesh out my own views.
I like to be asked questions because it gives me a chance to put down in writing the things I believe, and in doing this I tend to dig deeper into what I believe and why.

I judge my success here by seeing now how I really have deepened my understanding into the things I believe.

Over the years I have gotten a chance to write on topics I never would have dug into all that much except for here.

so yes...Perhaps I need to amend what I said at the top of this post.
Perhaps this site is a very good place for my mission work,,,its just that the main person being helped here is not the "other guy" its myself.

I dont know how the others are doing, but I can say that I have grown while posting on the Walter Martin forum...


I cant say for sure I have seen others draw closer to Christ while here, but I can say I have.

I have no idea and no way to know for sure if anything I have ever posted on this forum has actually helped another person understand the Christian faith better or not?...

But I can say that what I have posted here has greatly helped me understand the true Christian faith, and I now have in deeper and more meaningful path that I walk.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by alanmolstad

one has to be carefull not to invest themselves too much in thinking that their on-line time is actually a ministry.
I mean that its fine to understand that every place you go is a reflection on your life and your religion, but it does get a bit much when you think that everything you currently think should be just as important to everyone else as it is to you.

Your life and your personal ministry mean a lot to you personally,,,but little to anyone else on the internet.

But we do tend to see some people that think every word they post should be seen as being equal to scripture.
We get people here like that many times over the years.

What happens is that they come barging into this forum and are here to set the world right.

They got a few bible verses to share, and a few books on how to present their religion to others, and they start attacking others...sometimes/many times in very personal offensive ways.

But what happens next is that the other guests simply dont react the way they were shown they should in their outreach books.
People simply never stop bickering right back at them.

In the outreach books and websites that people use all the time, it must be written from the stand point of showing a person, step by step how to go from one view of God and salvation to a different better view of God and salvation.

The whole book is written in an "order"...step1...step 2....step3...step 4, etc.

Well, thats not how things go on-line at all !

In real life, you never actually get to step 2.

In real life, you try to go to step 2 all the time...but suddenly you have to go back to step 1 again.....only to later think you can go to step 2, but you cant, for the other person is still stuck at step 1 and that's it...end of story.

and thus...we arrive at what actually is the downfall to many here that come thinking they are here to do outreach and missions...."FRUSTRATION"

For it is the amount of frustration that get people in trouble,
Frustration at not being able to get to step 2.
Frustration at not getting any help from someone else when they keep running into people that will refuse to follow the "plan".

I have always approached on-line forums as just being a place where I get to flesh out my own views.
I like to be asked questions because it gives me a chance to put down in writing the things I believe, and in doing this I tend to dig deeper into what I believe and why.

I judge my success here by seeing now how I really have deepened my understanding into the things I believe.

Over the years I have gotten a chance to write on topics I never would have dug into all that much except for here.

so yes...Perhaps I need to amend what I said at the top of this post.
Perhaps this site is a very good place for my mission work,,,its just that the main person being helped here is not the "other guy" its myself.

I dont know how the others are doing, but I can say that I have grown while posting on the Walter Martin forum...


I cant say for sure I have seen others draw closer to Christ while here, but I can say I have.

I have no idea and no way to know for sure if anything I have ever posted on this forum has actually helped another person understand the Christian faith better or not?...

But I can say that what I have posted here has greatly helped me understand the true Christian faith, and I now have in deeper and more meaningful path that I walk.

We may never know this side of heaven who came to Christ because of something we shared. God promised that His word would not return to Him void. I am ever mindful of the 'lurkers' The ones that never post but read what we write. I believe God can and does send a spiritually hungry person. I have learned a lot too being on forums such as this one.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by hogan60

So you're not here to witness to Mormons.

witness takes many forms

you strike me as naive

[DrDavidT]

We may never know this side of heaven who came to Christ because of something we shared. God promised that His word would not return to Him void. I am ever mindful of the 'lurkers' The ones that never post but read what we write. I believe God can and does send a spiritually hungry person. I have learned a lot too being on forums such as this one.

there is a process of winning someone to Christ. It can take up to 3 people, or more, one plants, another waters and still someone to harvest

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by DrDavidT

there is a process of winning someone to Christ. It can take up to 3 people, or more, one plants, another waters and still someone to harvest

Sure, David, but you left out the work of the Holy Spirit and our prayers that He will open the eyes and hearts of these lost people. If one isn't planting in love, its wasted. I rarely see love and patience on this forum. Everyone wants to be right instead of being teachable. Arguing in circles and name calling. Is this Christ likeness?

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Sure, David, but you left out the work of the Holy Spirit and our prayers that He will open the eyes and hearts of these lost people. If one isn't planting in love, its wasted. I rarely see love and patience on this forum. Everyone wants to be right instead of being teachable. Arguing in circles and name calling. Is this Christ likeness?

That's endemic to most sites which are critical of the LDS church, IMO.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's endemic to most sites which are critical of the LDS church, IMO.

Sadly, that's true, but I've seen it happen both ways. We're human. We get angry. I am not here to judge any LDS. Only to defend the Holy Scriptures. False teachings need to be exposed and addressed by the Scriptures.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

That's endemic to most sites which are critical of the LDS church, IMO.

Duplicate post.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Sadly, that's true, but I've seen it happen both ways. We're human. We get angry. I am not here to judge any LDS. Only to defend the Holy Scriptures. False teachings need to be exposed and addressed by the Scriptures.

Hi Hogan:

I agree with your post here--and I do appreciate your patience.

Hogan--the problem with those who claim to defend the scriptures is, IMO--they commonly use the scriptures very sparingly--and label all the scriptures which testify against them as--"out of context"--"you don't understand the scriptures", etc.

I find the critics are, all too often-- unwilling to face what the scriptures testify to--and, on top of that-- they know precious little about the Biblical text.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Christian]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

I would say the Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit, but I know you don't believe in that type of witness, but prefer archaeological findings or other things that have little to do with faith.

Demons bear FALSE witness, but we CHRISTIANS (not-mormons; they are NOT Christians in the historical sense, they just follow 'a' christ) all have the Fruit of the Spirit (That is a SINGULAR term btw)

God doesn't impart FAITH by 'Holy Spirit Testimony,' but He DOES impart faith in HIM by HEARING THE WORD OF GOD (you know. . .that stuff that CAME from God, not stuff MADE UP less than 200 years ago by joe smith)

Archaeological findings do not PRODUCE faith, but SUPPORT faith.

Of course, we KNOW there are no archaeological findings to support EVEN ONE PERSON, PLACE, or EVENT specific to the book of mormon. There is NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE THERE to support smith's fairytales.)

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

God doesn't impart FAITH by 'Holy Spirit Testimony,' but He DOES impart faith in HIM by HEARING THE WORD OF GOD (

Hi Christian:

That's real interesting, Christian:

John 16:13--King James Version (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Sure, David, but you left out the work of the Holy Spirit and our prayers that He will open the eyes and hearts of these lost people. If one isn't planting in love, its wasted. I rarely see love and patience on this forum. Everyone wants to be right instead of being teachable. Arguing in circles and name calling. Is this Christ likeness?

I did not leave that out, it is part of the whole action. you ***ume something and do not clarify. You can't see love in binary and stop thinking everyone is not teachable when they do not respond according to your ideas. being teachable does not mean one has to be taught by everyone else especially naive unknowing people. I do not name call, watch yourself there

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Sadly, that's true, but I've seen it happen both ways. We're human. We get angry. I am not here to judge any LDS. Only to defend the Holy Scriptures. False teachings need to be exposed and addressed by the Scriptures.

so you think you are the only one who knows or does this? One thing I have noticed over the years is how believers who think they are God's gift to the world violate the very principles they accuse others of violating. Do you really think the believers who came here before you could not recognize flse teaching? Your insulting at***ude turns me off of discussing further with you

[DrDavidT]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Sadly, that's true, but I've seen it happen both ways. We're human. We get angry. I am not here to judge any LDS. Only to defend the Holy Scriptures. False teachings need to be exposed and addressed by the Scriptures.

and again, this is a thread on the EVIDENCE that mormonism is true. do you have any? if not you are off topic and derailing the thread. learn how to post before judging others who came before you

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

I agree with your post here--and I do appreciate your patience.

Hogan--the problem with those who claim to defend the scriptures is, IMO--they commonly use the scriptures very sparingly--and label all the scriptures which testify against them as--"out of context"--"you don't understand the scriptures", etc.

I find the critics are, all too often-- unwilling to face what the scriptures testify to--and, on top of that-- they know precious little about the Biblical text.

James 2:20-26---King James Version (KJV)
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

I can understand your frustration. I have learned a lot over the years. One thing I learned is how to effectively study the Bible. Sometimes it makes a big difference to look at the original language such as Greek to get the real meaning. A concordance is helpful too. But if one sticks with books that their church wrote, then they're looking at the Bible through the eyes of that church.

Take James for example. he was writing to the 12 tribes scattered abroad. He gives no indication that he knew of Paul's ministry to the Gentiles or the Gospel of grace that Paul taught. Its believed that Jame's letter was the first bit of NT that was ever written. He was still teaching the legal aspects of Judaism. When we have these types of information, it can better help us to understand what the author is saying, to whom and why.

Peter also wrote to Jewish believers in the kingdom gospel. They are never called christians. Believers were first called Christians in Antioch, not Jerusalem. His letter, 1John and James are known as Jewish epistles. They were written to these Jewish believers who were facing persecution. They're scattered from Jerusalem. They believed the tribulation and Christ's return could happen in their lifetime. We have to know the time frame of the letters in the Bible.

This is why just merely quoting Scriptures on here doesn't really work. Many are trying to defend their church or religion and the discussion goes around in circles. We must never read the Bible through the eyes of our church's teachings. But rather, allow the Bible to teach us.

[Christian]

berry posted:

Originally Posted by Christian [IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
God doesn't impart FAITH by 'Holy Spirit Testimony,' but He DOES impart faith in HIM by HEARING THE WORD OF GOD

(Hi Christian:

That's real interesting, Christian:

John 16:13--King James Version (KJV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.[/QUOTE]

So you DON'T BELIEVE in demons, or that they can fool you into thinking they are the Spirit of truth? I see. . .

The Spirit of truth (the HOLY Spirit, the REAL ONE, not joey smith's fake one) GUIDES US TO WHAT GOD SAID IN SCRIPTURE.

GOD said:

Rom 10:17
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
NKJV
IF you want to pretend that faith in JESUS CHRIST comes by 'testimonies' of your cultists, I can't force you to change to agree with God instead.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by Christian

So you DON'T BELIEVE in demons,....

Of course I do--we have millions of those who claim to be Christians--preaching there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ which is necessary for God's grace unto life,

which, for me--is the greatest lie satan has ever pawned upon mankind--but, they preach it as the gospel of truth.

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

[BigJulie]

Originally Posted by Christian

Demons bear FALSE witness, but we CHRISTIANS (not-mormons; they are NOT Christians in the historical sense, they just follow 'a' christ) all have the Fruit of the Spirit (That is a SINGULAR term btw)

Yes, this is true. Demons can bear false witness. So God tells us how we know the difference:

"Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

This is why I said "Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit" and why it is dangerous to address only half a quote in your response.

God doesn't impart FAITH by 'Holy Spirit Testimony,' but He DOES impart faith in HIM by HEARING THE WORD OF GOD (you know. . .that stuff that CAME from God, not stuff MADE UP less than 200 years ago by joe smith)

This is what Christ states about it: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Archaeological findings do not PRODUCE faith, but SUPPORT faith.

Of course, we KNOW there are no archaeological findings to support EVEN ONE PERSON, PLACE, or EVENT specific to the book of mormon. There is NOT A SHRED OF EVIDENCE THERE to support smith's fairytales.)

So, once again--you rely on archaeological findings to support faith and if you do not see them, then there is no faith.

[Christian]

big julie posted:

Originally Posted by Christian[IMG]http://www.waltermartin.com/forums/images/****ons/viewpost-right.png[/IMG]
Demons bear FALSE witness, but we CHRISTIANS (not-mormons; they are NOT Christians in the historical sense, they just follow 'a' christ) all have the Fruit of the Spirit (That is a SINGULAR term btw)Yes, this is true. Demons can bear false witness.

So God tells us how we know the difference:

"Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

And EXACTLY WHAT IS THAT WILL?

Oh yes, it is to have FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST (THE REAL ONE, not false christs like the smith one)

This is why I said "Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit" and why it is dangerous to address only half a quote in your response.

'Fruits' of the Spirit? According to the BIBLE the FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT is SINGULAR FRUIT, not fruitS

This is what Christ states about it: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Of course Jesus is NOT talking about 'praying about it' then 'feeling a burning in your bosom' now IS HE?

You CANNOT AVOID the facts:
1) Eph 2:8-9For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
NKJV

Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
NKJV

2) Rom 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV



So, once again--you rely on archaeological findings to support faith and if you do not see them, then there is no faith.

Why do you keep making that COMPLETELY HAIRBRAINED AND FALSE STATEMENT? I have faith in Jesus Christ. He is my Lord and Savior. (NOT your demonic 'spirit-brother-of-satan-christ', but the REAL ONE, the One Who CREATED the angels, INCLUDING THE FALLEN angel, satan. The BIBLICAL Jesus is satan's CREATOR, NOT HIS 'spirit-ANYTHING.'

I have ABSOLUTE, BIBLICAL FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST AND I have archaeological findings in addition to that.

Sorry that you are lacking, following a false prophet, a false christ, and have nothing but the fairytales of joey smith to hang your hat on (besides your emotional 'tummy tug,' which you could get from watching a movie).

You apparently prayed, and got a 'yes' answer in your mind, and a tummy tug

I, and many others like me, prayed in earnest, looking ONLY for whatever God wanted me to know, and I got a "NO!!!" answer.

Sorry, but your god gave you a phoney 'test.' The mormon god is a phoney god.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Of course I do--we have millions of those who claim to be Christians--preaching there are no acts of obedience to Jesus Christ which is necessary for God's grace unto life,

which, for me--is the greatest lie satan has ever pawned upon mankind--but, they preach it as the gospel of truth.

1 Peter 4:17---King James Version (KJV)
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Hi dberrie, Eph. 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."


Born again Christians are not saying we should never obey God. When we become Christians we are to do good works. But its not for salvation. Its not to try to be worthy. The christian is already forgiven. That's Grace.

Romans 1:8 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."


The difference between born again Christians and Mormons is that Mormons are trying to do all they can do through self effort. When they fail, that's when they hope Christ's atoning work (grace) comes in. Christians believe, as the Holy Bible teaches, that we are all sinners. All have fallen short.

Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

Only the shed blood of Christ saves us. We rely solely on Him and His finished work at the cross. Not on ourselves.

Grace doesn't click in through our obedience. That's working for something. Grace is God's unmerited favor. It means we can't earn it through self effort. Its God's free gift because He loves us.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, this is true. Demons can bear false witness. So God tells us how we know the difference:

"Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

This is why I said "Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit" and why it is dangerous to address only half a quote in your response.



This is what Christ states about it: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

So, once again--you rely on archaeological findings to support faith and if you do not see them, then there is no faith.

Because Mormonism claims they have restored the gospel which somehow got lost despite the work of Jesus and the apostles and their followers, the burden of proof does lie with the Mormon church. Its not lack of faith on the part of Christians, because we do have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Its we do not have any faith in another gospel. Mormons are asking us to believe in something totally different and yet present no concrete evidence. That's where archaeology comes in.Yet, you don't even have that and the Bible has a ton of archaeological support.

Christ promised to preserve His church and He does not lie.

Mtt. 16:18 "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

That's plain english. Nothing, not even hell can destroy His church.

[alanmolstad]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Hi dberrie, Eph. 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."


Born again Christians are not saying we should never obey God. When we become Christians we are to do good works. But its not for salvation. Its not to try to be worthy. The christian is already forgiven. That's Grace.

Romans 1:8 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."


The difference between born again Christians and Mormons is that Mormons are trying to do all they can do through self effort. When they fail, that's when they hope Christ's atoning work (grace) comes in. Christians believe, as the Holy Bible teaches, that we are all sinners. All have fallen short.

Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

Only the shed blood of Christ saves us. We rely solely on Him and His finished work at the cross. Not on ourselves.

Grace doesn't click in through our obedience. That's working for something. Grace is God's unmerited favor. It means we can't earn it through self effort. Its God's free gift because He loves us.

Your are correct!


Good ***....

For as Christians we are saved by Grace though faith, and not by works.
So in other words, we are saved by grace though faith alone, yet faith is never alone.

For we are saved by grace thought faith to produce works...

This is why they say that faith without works is dead...
For it is not the works that make or keep your faith alive, but they are the things that show others your faith is alive..



Remember there are 2 types of justification talked about in the Bible.

Type one is Justification by works....this is the justification you get when people see your works.
People cant see into your heart, so the only way to know if you are saved or not is to look at the things you say and do......(your works)

This is how we justify the claim we make when we say we are saved.....we point to our works that can be seen by others.




TYPE 2, is the Justification by FAITH....this is the justification that God alone sees.
For God alone can see into your heart....this is the justification that is connected to our salvation,,,for we are saved only by Grace though FAITH....and not by works.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by BigJulie

Yes, this is true. Demons can bear false witness. So God tells us how we know the difference:

"Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

This is why I said "Holy Ghost bearing witness and then the fruits of the spirit" and why it is dangerous to address only half a quote in your response.



This is what Christ states about it: "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

So, once again--you rely on archaeological findings to support faith and if you do not see them, then there is no faith.

Hi Julie, Where does God ever require blind faith? The Bible says the opposite.

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

God gives us plenty of evidence that we are without excuse not to believe in Him.

To just blindly accept Mormonism even though there's no evidence for the need of the Mormon church or for any restoration is not the way God works. God went to great lengths and sacrifice to send His Son that all of us are without excuse not to believe in Jesus Christ for salvation.

[dberrie2000]

Originally Posted by hogan60

Hi dberrie, Eph. 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."


Born again Christians are not saying we should never obey God. When we become Christians we are to do good works. But its not for salvation. Its not to try to be worthy. The christian is already forgiven. That's Grace.

Romans 1:8 "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."


The difference between born again Christians and Mormons is that Mormons are trying to do all they can do through self effort. When they fail, that's when they hope Christ's atoning work (grace) comes in. Christians believe, as the Holy Bible teaches, that we are all sinners. All have fallen short.

Romans 3:23 “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”

Only the shed blood of Christ saves us. We rely solely on Him and His finished work at the cross. Not on ourselves.

Grace doesn't click in through our obedience. That's working for something. Grace is God's unmerited favor. It means we can't earn it through self effort. Its God's free gift because He loves us.

Hi Hogan:

Is God extending His Blood to those who walk in the light working for something? Is that Blood unmerited favor, if it is conditional upon one walking in the light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Did Paul misundertand the doctrine of "unmerited favor" when it came to God's grace?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Hogan--how do you collate all those scriptures with Ephesians2:8-9?

As I have stated before--the LDS, and some scholars--now believe when Paul used the term "works", "works of the Law", "the Law", etc--that was a reference to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law--not obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.(See the New Perspective on Paul)

How do you collate them? Taking one scripture and pitting it against the rest not only does not make one's point--it renders the Bible an unreliable source of truth.

[hogan60]

Originally Posted by dberrie2000

Hi Hogan:

Is God extending His Blood to those who walk in the light working for something? Is that Blood unmerited favor, if it is conditional upon one walking in the light?

1 John 1:7---King James Version (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Did Paul misundertand the doctrine of "unmerited favor" when it came to God's grace?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9---King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Galatians 5:19-21--King James Version (KJV)
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 2:5-11--King James Version (KJV)
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Hogan--how do you collate all those scriptures with Ephesians2:8-9?

As I have stated before--the LDS, and some scholars--now believe when Paul used the term "works", "works of the Law", "the Law", etc--that was a reference to certain rituals under the Mosaic Law--not obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.(See the New Perspective on Paul)

How do you collate them? Taking one scripture and pitting it against the rest not only does not make one's point--it renders the Bible an unreliable source of truth.

dberrie, are you saying that Paul contradicted himself when he said in Eph. 2:8,9 it is by grace we are saved and not of works? Do you really believe Paul turned around and taught something completely different?

As for 2Thess.1:7-9, Paul is talking about unbelievers in the Day of the Lord. They don't believe in Jesus, therefore, they don't believe in His Gospel. Obeying the Gospel is believing (having faith) in it. When we speak about obeying the Gospel we are referring to what one must do in order to be justified.

Acts 16:31 "And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.